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  1. #256
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    Well, the article I read about Muslims leaving their religion or converting mostly concerned Iraq and Syria. These are people who have lived under direct ISIS rule. I have also read that some refugees convert to Christianity after they arrive in Europe. Admittedly, those aren't huge numbers, but it certainly looks like the start of a long-term trend.

    The point you make about the kind of Muslim immigrants Europe has received is an interesting one. They are often contrasted with Muslim immigrants to the US who are much more educated and are therefore less likely to be conservative and religious. Their success rates in terms of integration are also much higher than in Europe, so there's probably something to your theory.

    All religions have a political component, this is still a major factor in Northern Ireland for instance, but it is true that Islam is more political than most religions. I still maintain that Islamic immigration is actually a sign of weakness, not strength. If Islamic civilisation were really strong, people would be migrating there and not running away from it.

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  3. #257
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    Migration began with the dinosaurs not much has changed. It is humanity's challenge to deal with...extinction or amalgamation...there's the choice.

    ISIS is Islam's Inquisition. In time the phase will pass with all its horror in its wake. Humans can be better than this and they will, it is what 'enlightenment' truly is.

    Unless we are that intellectually and spiritually limited we should transcend, if not, then we are nothing, and most depressing of all, nothing special.

    Chris,

    Imperialism was a transgression of natural law, inevitably the backlash would occur. A culture cannot be raped, exploited, and manipulated without very bad things made manifest. We see it in every corner of the Earth.
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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  5. #258
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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn
    Well, the sad part is that it is once again the far-right that addresses these issues, while the more moderate parties remain in denial about it, and the left in turn embraces the mass immigration ─ not out of truly humanitarian concerns, but because it is a means for them to profile themselves as progressives and humanitarians. I've said this before, but if there is a job opening at the socialist workers union or another socialist organization here and ten people are applying for the job, one of whom is a socially controversial figure ─ be it someone of a different ethnicity, or an LGBT person ─ then that is the candidate who gets the job. Likewise, the socialist party actively recruits people of foreign ethnicity for their electoral lists, so that the immigrants would vote for the socialist party. And earlier on, during the 1990s, the green party did the exact same thing.

    For the left, it's all about profiling themselves as rebels. They don't care about actual social justice, or else they wouldn't be lining their pockets in corruption scandals. And the right ─ populist as ever ─ is addressing the issue only because they know all too well that it is an issue, and especially among the frightened, the poor and the uneducated. For them, it's their ticket to an electoral victory, and thus toward a chance at participating in government. Here in the Flanders, the political climate is decisively right-wing and authoritarian, whereas the Walloon region is currently Keynesian-liberal but traditionally more socialist and ethically liberal.
    This is much more complex than it first appears:
    The liberals attempt to equalize things in the search for egalitarianism and the right fights it and it is the right than owns the money and the power and business...So the end result to use an analog of American construction industry...a minority gets the job and then is granted the honor of wielding a shovel for 30 years. When the 'regular human' gets hired he/she will steadily move up the socio-financial ladder. Is that REALLY equal opportunity? No, not really...it is another facade that works because people got no sense.
    I wasn't talking of the US, NotAPretender. I was talking explicitly about Belgium, and farther down my post also about the grander European scale. The political left here in Belgium ─ or anywhere in Europe ─ cannot be compared to what is called the same in the USA. The political left in the USA is best compared to the Keynesian-liberals here in Europe, whom we ourselves still consider center-right.

    The two parties ─ or party families, if you want to consider things at the Belgian federal level or even the European level ─ that purport to be humanitarian and progressive are the socialists and the greens. Also, European politics are far more party-oriented at the national level ─ especially here in Belgium ─ than in the USA. It's an entirely different culture. Our workers unions are also politically affiliated, even though they are not part of the actual political parties themselves, and may at times organize protests and strikes against the decisions of an elected minister of their own political color ─ that has already happened.

    Health care funds also used to be politically affiliated, and even though those very same health care funds do still exist, there are now also independent and apolitical health care funds. I had been with the socialist health care fund for a long time, but for the last ten years or so, I've been with a politically neutral health care fund. Membership of a health care fund is mandatory in Belgium for everyone who is not self-employed, but you are free to choose a health care fund of your liking ─ they're competing with one another in both their membership fees and the services they offer. The health care fund's primary role is to foot part of (some of) your medical bills ─ normally about 72% of a regular doctor's bill or dentist's bill, and part of the cost of certain prescription medication.

    Most employed people and those registered as unemployed (but not disabled) are also a member at a union ─ commonly of the same political affiliation ─ but union membership is not mandatory. I was a member of the socialist union for as long as I was moving back and forth between employment and unemployment, but I abandoned my membership when I was officially declared disabled. Unions also don't have any power over employment over here, as is quite often the case in the USA. All they can do is negotiate and defend workers' rights, and organize strikes. When you're unemployed, they also take care of part of the unemployment administration for you.

    Europe and the USA are two very, very different cultures. They cannot be compared.





    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    If Islamic civilisation were really strong, people would be migrating there and not running away from it.
    Well, the only thing I see here are westerners converting to Islam ─ and especially so in prisons ─ but I know of no Muslims here who've converted to Christianity, Judaism or anything else.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  7. #259
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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post

    Chris,

    Imperialism was a transgression of natural law, inevitably the backlash would occur. A culture cannot be raped, exploited, and manipulated without very bad things made manifest. We see it in every corner of the Earth.
    So you're one of those people that think mass migration from erstwhile colonies is payback for colonial crimes?

    That's a depressing thought. It would imply that accepting immigrants is a form of punishment…

    I have been an immigrant four times in four different countries on two continents and always thought of myself as more of a reward to the host society than punishment

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  9. #260
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    I was using the US as an analogy...but yeah...I've always believed that human nature is human nature.

    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    So you're one of those people that think mass migration from erstwhile colonies is payback for colonial crimes?

    That's a depressing thought. It would imply that accepting immigrants is a form of punishment…

    I have been an immigrant four times in four different countries on two continents and always thought of myself as more of a reward to the host society than punishment
    No, not payback...there is no payback there is just nature and it takes its course...big, big difference. Though in the alternative world Karma is taking on different connotations...I will use an 'old' analogy, Karma is a bitch. We just have to work things out...quit fighting ourselves, we the human race.

    The last shipped African slave co-authored a book written around the turn of the 20th century said it best: When the Earth eats, it doesn't give back.
    Last edited by Emil El Zapato, 24th April 2019 at 13:47.
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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    It seems to me that the immigration into Europe of less wealthy, less educated people would be a natural result of the destruction brought upon the area by the west. It's more difficult for the poor from the middle east to migrate here to America. The rich can afford better to come here.

    Immigrants are valuable for sure. If there is not a place for them, if there are not jobs for them, if the societies cannot take them in, then problems ensue.

    As long as the west keeps bombing, the refugees will keep on coming'


    Islam is a very attractive religion when you learn about it. I totally get why people would convert. But as with any new spirituality, the pink glow wears off and the real v. the ideal rears its not-so-attractive head.

    I feel most for the women who go off and then find themselves a sort of slave. Good intentions, but not smart.

    God doesn't want the kinds of sacrifices that lead to brutality and death. Only men do.

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  13. #262
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    Immigration is more complicated than either the Left or the Right makes it out to be. Both sides are guilty of oversimplifying it and refusing to look at all the factors involved. A certain amount of immigration is healthy, but it's crazy to claim there should be no upper limit, like Merkel did in 2015. Just to give a few extreme examples, it is easy to see how migration isn't always beneficial.

    Take a country like Denmark, which has a population of 5 million. If a hundred thousand Chinese moved in, say, over a few decades would it fundamentally change the country? Probably not. There would be time to adjust, to build new housing, expand services, and this number of people could easily be integrated over a longer period of time. Now let's say a million Chinese moved in, over a single year. It would be pretty severe and the country would struggle to cope, there would be serious consequences both short and long term, yet it would probably still be manageable if it was a one-off. Now let's Assume a billion Chinese moved in. Not looking so pretty now, eh? So obviously there is an upper limit to migration and it is nonsensical to deny that, like many on the pro-migration front do.

    It is also just plain stupid to deny that not all immigrants were made equal. Sticking with the example of Denmark, a Swedish brain Surgeon is not the equal of a Somali goat herder when it comes to value provided to the host society and ease of integration. If that offends you, you're simply in denial and your problem is with reality itself, rather than anything else. People are not equal. For that to be true, everyone would have to be exactly the same. Cultures are not equal either. Some are better than others and you want people from certain cultures, over others, especially if that culture is closer to yours, hence helping integration. Which is why we have the EU, and free movement btw...

    This is not theoretical either, applying these principles leads to better outcomes. Countries that base their immigration policies on rational criteria, discriminating based on education, skills, language fluency, age, health and country of origin, whilst setting an annual quota, that is an upper limit to migration, have better outcomes. It really isn't rocket science, but ideology tends to overrule common sense in this area and that's not healthy.

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  15. #263
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    It is probably a good idea to study maps and take note of the history of migration of people since the beginning of map- making, so as to get some proper perspective. Migration becomes immigration when people intend to stay in countries of their choice, and countries only ever grew by those who chose to settle there before the new arrivals. Maggie Thatcher tried to impose a clear-out of those settlers from my great-grandmother's generation whilst she was in power, but it didn't work. And if countries can't understand that what they are dealing with is a result of their own activity of war and violence, and thereby change/stop the cruelty that they impose, they can worry about eventual payback arriving on their doorsteps.

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  17. #264
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    Quote Originally posted by Kathy View Post
    It is probably a good idea to study maps and take note of the history of migration of people since the beginning of map- making, so as to get some proper perspective. Migration becomes immigration when people intend to stay in countries of their choice, and countries only ever grew by those who chose to settle there before the new arrivals. Maggie Thatcher tried to impose a clear-out of those settlers from my great-grandmother's generation whilst she was in power, but it didn't work. And if countries can't understand that what they are dealing with is a result of their own activity of war and violence, and thereby change/stop the cruelty that they impose, they can worry about eventual payback arriving on their doorsteps.
    The world today would have looked very different ─ and would have been a lot more cooperative ─ if the USA hadn't been such a warmonger these past 70 years. Because let's face it, it was the USA (and Israel) that armed ISIS because they were hoping to overthrow a few local and sovereign regimes with ISIS' help, and then they started bombing ISIS territory when their own created plague began growing out of control. The old "problem/reaction/solution" thing.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  19. #265
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    Chris,

    Totally practical, completely true but compassion requires sacrifice and that is the one element you left out of the formula. It seems a completely rightist perspective. And ready with the bounce back are the leftists. There is a tipping point but ideally it shouldn't be reflective of culture, color, religion, or status. Ideally it would be represented by available resources.

    I don't have a 'feel' for the immigration situation in Europe but in the United States the highest concentration of immigrants versus indigenous born (not native americans) was during the Irish immigration waves which at the time might have been an 'Oh my God!' for the English but oh well...I like Green beer and potatoes. But then in the typical human fashion the Irish got to say 'Oh my God!' in turn when the Italians showed up (I love spaghetti), when the Germans showed up (I love sauerkraut), and currently with the burrito bearing latinos, yeah, you got it (I love burritos).

    I ain't worried about it...
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    Chris,

    Totally practical, completely true but compassion requires sacrifice and that is the one element you left out of the formula. It seems a completely rightist perspective. And ready with the bounce back are the leftists. There is a tipping point but ideally it shouldn't be reflective of culture, color, religion, or status. Ideally it would be represented by available resources.

    I don't have a 'feel' for the immigration situation in Europe but in the United States the highest concentration of immigrants versus indigenous born (not native americans) was during the Irish immigration waves which at the time might have been an 'Oh my God!' for the English but oh well...I like Green beer and potatoes. But then in the typical human fashion the Irish got to say 'Oh my God!' in turn when the Italians showed up (I love spaghetti), when the Germans showed up (I love sauerkraut), and currently with the burrito bearing latinos, yeah, you got it (I love burritos).

    I ain't worried about it...
    I don't think the two situations are comparable. Pre-Great-Depression immigration to the USA was about filling up a continent that has been depopulated, partly due to violence, but mostly because of disease. The country was in dire need of immigrants. The current situation in Europe is nothing like that. Most of Europe is already grossly overpopulated and could use a drop in population to get back to a more natural level. Mass immigration is not helping that natural process.

    But I get what you mean about compassion. I just wish the compassion shown towards foreigners who have never contributed to government coffers would extend to the local population as well. There are so many homeless people on the streets of London, that it's hard to believe at times. These people get no help at all, yet there seems to be plenty of money to house, clothe and feed "refugees" most of whom are anything but. What gives?

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  23. #267
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    yeah, I have to agree, that is just wrong...But be certain that is the 'truth' and not a 'perception'.

    I guess I can agree with your view on the depopulation of America...but the opposition to new immigrants has never wavered in spite of the 'truth' regarding circumstances and realities.
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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    Senior Member Aianawa's Avatar
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    Mmmm am sure it was Russian influence that sorted the Isis/Weres, well documented imo.

    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    The world today would have looked very different ─ and would have been a lot more cooperative ─ if the USA hadn't been such a warmonger these past 70 years. Because let's face it, it was the USA (and Israel) that armed ISIS because they were hoping to overthrow a few local and sovereign regimes with ISIS' help, and then they started bombing ISIS territory when their own created plague began growing out of control. The old "problem/reaction/solution" thing.

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    Quote Originally posted by Kathy View Post
    It is probably a good idea to study maps and take note of the history of migration of people since the beginning of map- making, so as to get some proper perspective. Migration becomes immigration when people intend to stay in countries of their choice, and countries only ever grew by those who chose to settle there before the new arrivals. Maggie Thatcher tried to impose a clear-out of those settlers from my great-grandmother's generation whilst she was in power, but it didn't work. And if countries can't understand that what they are dealing with is a result of their own activity of war and violence, and thereby change/stop the cruelty that they impose, they can worry about eventual payback arriving on their doorsteps.
    It is also possible to study language and how it developed and spread in order to understand how people and cultures spread. It's quite a useful tool in fact.

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    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Aianawa View Post
    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    The world today would have looked very different ─ and would have been a lot more cooperative ─ if the USA hadn't been such a warmonger these past 70 years. Because let's face it, it was the USA (and Israel) that armed ISIS because they were hoping to overthrow a few local and sovereign regimes with ISIS' help, and then they started bombing ISIS territory when their own created plague began growing out of control. The old "problem/reaction/solution" thing.
    Mmmm am sure it was Russian influence that sorted the Isis/Weres, well documented imo.
    Ultimately, yes.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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