Page 12 of 16 FirstFirst ... 29101112131415 ... LastLast
Results 166 to 180 of 234

Thread: The Bat Kave Kosmic Konspiracy Korner

  1. #166
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
    Join Date
    3rd April 2017
    Location
    Earth I
    Posts
    12,193
    Thanks
    36,647
    Thanked 43,101 Times in 11,916 Posts
    For Whatever Its Worth...

    There is likely much truth to all this...The 26 planes is a myth, though

    FactCheck.org (I don't want to provide FredSixPack any 'ammunition') Though I hope it would be obvious that I didn't write this...for better or for worser...

    Q: Did McCain crash five planes? Did he cause the 1967 Forrestal fire?

    A: No. Chain e-mails and Internet postings that make that claim are mistaken. One crash was found to be his fault, but the Navy commended his piloting skills.


    FULL QUESTION
    Is the information below true? I have heard that McCain crashed five planes. In searching the web I found this information. It was located at [DELETED] Thank you for more information.

    FULL ANSWER
    Update, Oct. 12: We have further updated this article to include details from newly released Navy records of an investigation that found McCain’s first crash was due to pilot error, and not, as McCain has stated, an engine failure. The L.A. Times story also pinpointed the dates of early incidents more closely, and we have rewritten and re-ordered some sections to reflect this new information.

    Update, Sept 19: This item was originally posted Sept. 5, 2008. We have updated it to include additional details of the 1967 Forrestal disaster from official documents, which differ from McCain’s own, widely accepted recollection. We have also included McCain’s admission of “daredevil clowning” in an accident that did not result in loss of his plane.

    We have had numerous questions about this widely circulated claim. Some say McCain “lost” five planes, others that he “crashed” five planes. All offer this alleged “fact” as evidence that he was a bad pilot. All are incorrect.

    McCain did lose two Navy aircraft while piloting them. One crash was found to be McCain’s fault, the other due to an engine failure of undetermined cause. A third was destroyed on the deck of the carrier USS Forrestal when a missile fired accidentally from another plane hit either the plane next to McCain’s or, less likely, his own aircraft, triggering a disastrous fire that killed 134 sailors and nearly killed McCain. A fourth plane was lost when he was shot down over North Vietnam on a bombing mission over Hanoi.

    A fifth alleged “crash” turns out to be a misinterpretation of a flight accident that did not result in the loss of the aircraft. McCain admitted to causing that incident through “daredevil clowning” but returned safely.

    ‘Superb Airmanship’
    None of these incidents prevented McCain from winning regular promotions and being assigned additional flight duty. The Navy praised his “aggressiveness and skillful airmanship” when awarding him the Navy Commendation Medal for an attack Oct. 18, 1967, on a shipyard in Haiphong, North Vietnam, prior to his capture. The Navy also commended his “superb airmanship” in awarding him the Distinguished Flying Cross for a bombing attack on a Hanoi power plant Oct. 26, 1967. His plane was hit by a surface-to-air missile on that mission, but he “continued his bomb delivery pass and released his bombs over the target” before being forced to eject, according to the official citation.

    The Navy has released and posted copies of McCain’s several medal citations and commendations. We have not seen any similar release of official reports of his accidents, or of his fitness reports as a young officer. However, we do have accounts of the incidents both from McCain himself and from his biographer, Robert Timberg, a former White House correspondent for the Baltimore Sun, and now editor of the U.S. Naval Institute’s magazine, Proceedings. Timberg’s award-winning book, “The Nightingale’s Song,” tells the story of McCain and four members of his Naval Academy class who later rose to prominence. It was published in 1995. McCain’s book “Faith of my Fathers” was published in 1999.

    Two Crashes, and ‘Daredevil Clowning’
    First Crash, March 12, 1960: This took place while McCain, a young, unmarried officer not long out of the Naval Academy, was in advanced flight training at Corpus Christi, Texas. Timberg and McCain both give the cause as engine failure, but a Navy investigation blamed McCain’s inattention to altitude.

    McCain, 1999 (pp155-156): I crashed a plane in Corpus Christi Bay one Saturday morning. The engine quit while I was practicing landings. … I barely managed to get the canopy open and swim to the surface. … I took a few painkillers and hit the sack to rest my aching back for a few hours. … I was out carousing, injured back and all, later that evening.

    Timberg’s account agrees, but Navy records do not. According to a Naval Aviation Safety Center report, obtained by the Los Angeles Times, investigators determined that the engine did not quit, and McCain was to blame:

    Los Angeles Times, Oct. 6, 2008: Cockpit instruments that froze on impact showed the engine was still producing power. When water quenched the exhaust stack, it preserved a bright blue color, showing that the engine was still hot. And an aviator behind McCain reported that the engine was producing the black smoke characteristic of Skyraiders.

    Investigators determined that McCain was watching instruments in his cockpit that indicated the position of his landing gear and had lost track of his altitude and speed.

    The report concluded: “In the opinion of the board, the pilot’s preoccupation in the cockpit … coupled with the use of a power setting too low to maintain level flight in a turn were the primary causes of this accident.”

    “Clowning” in Spain, about December 1961: Those who claim McCain lost five planes – when they bother to give specific citations at all – point to an incident described by McCain, and also in Timberg’s book, as happening on one of McCain’s deployments to the Mediterranean. The L.A. Times put the date of the incident as “around December 1961,” while McCain was on a training mission flying from the USS Intrepid.

    Timberg, 1995 (p. 94): His professional growth, though reasonably steady, had its troubled moments. Flying low over the Iberian Peninsula, he took out some power lines, which led to a spate of newspaper stories in which he was predictably identified as the son of an admiral. The tale has gotten better with age. These days they talk about the day McCain turned the lights out in Spain.

    McCain described it this way in “Faith of My Fathers,” which was published four years after Timberg’s account:

    McCain, 1999 (p. 159): There were occasional setbacks in my efforts to round out my Navy profile. My reputation was certainly not enhanced when I knocked down some power lines while flying too low over southern Spain. My daredevil clowning had cut off electricity to a great many Spanish homes and created a small international incident.

    The L.A. Times, which interviewed others who were in McCain’s squadron at the time, reports that he returned to the carrier with 10 feet of power line trailing from his plan, and with a severed oil line. But while McCain himself admits this incident was cause by his own “daredevil clowning,” he landed safely and did not lose the aircraft. McCain’s detractors should scratch that “crash” off their list.

    Despite the incident in Spain, and the earlier finding that McCain was to blame for the Corpus Christi crash, McCain was promoted to full lieutenant on June 1, 1962.

    Second crash, Nov. 28 1965: By this time Lt. McCain was stationed at Meridian, Mississippi, and was newly married to his first wife, Carol. McCain had flown to Philadelphia to attend an Army-Navy football game with his parents and was bringing back Christmas presents for the family in the baggage compartment of his plane. His jet engine quit over the Chesapeake Bay.

    McCain, 1999 (p. 172): Somewhere between the Eastern Shore of Maryland and Norfolk, Virginia, as I was preparing to come in and refuel, my engine flamed out, and I had to eject at a thousand feet. The Christmas gifts were lost with my airplane.

    Biographer Timberg gives additional details:

    Timberg, 1995 (pp 95-96): [He] had just begun his descent over unpopulated tidal terrain when the engine died. “I’ve got a flame-out,” he radioed. He went through the standard relight procedures three times. At one thousand feet, he ejected, landing on the deserted beach moments before the plane slammed into a clump of trees. … The Navy classified it as a “routine ejection.”

    The L.A. Times obtained records of the investigation of this crash, giving a somewhat different picture but ultimately blaming engine failure:

    Los Angeles Times, Oct. 8, 2008: In a report dated Jan. 18, 1966, the Naval Aviation Safety Center said it could not determine the cause of the accident or corroborate McCain’s account of an explosion in the engine. A close examination of the engine found “no discrepancies which would have caused or contributed to engine failure or malfunction.” . . . About two weeks after issuing its report, the safety center revised its findings and said the accident resulted from the failure or malfunction of an “undetermined component of the engine.”

    A little more than a year later McCain was promoted to lieutenant commander on Jan. 1, 1967.

    The Forrestal Disaster, July 29, 1967
    At the time of this incident Lt. Cdr. McCain already had flown several bombing missions over North Vietnam from the aircraft carrier USS Forrestal. As he was in his A-4 Skyhawk, loaded with two, 1,000-pound bombs and waiting on the carrier deck for his turn to launch, a Zuni missile accidentally fired from another aircraft, swooshed across the carrier deck and struck either McCain’s plane or one next to it.

    That triggered a fire and a series of bomb and missile explosions that killed 134 sailors. McCain himself barely escaped alive. He quickly leaped from his plane into the pool of burning jet fuel that immediately surrounded him. About 90 seconds later he was blown 15 feet back when the first bomb “cooked off” and exploded, killing several nearby firefighters.

    James M. Caiella has written a scholarly article about the disaster, which appeared in the Fall 2003 issue of Foundation magazine, a publication of the National Naval Aviation Museum, located in Pensacola, Fla. Caiella, who is now associate editor of Proceedings and Naval History magazines, published by the U.S. Naval Institute in Annapolis, generously shared with us copies of some key documents which he obtained from the Navy under the Freedom of Information Act. They include a typed transcript of the sworn testimony that McCain gave less than two weeks after the disaster, on Aug. 5, 1967, and also a written statement he submitted prior to his testimony, describing the first moments of the disaster:

    McCain, 1967 statement: I heard a loud explosion and immediate fire all around the airplane . . . Smoke and flame were around the cockpit so I unstrapped . . . and unplugged my oxygen hose, keeping my visor down. I looked to the aft of the airplane and saw nothing but flame and I could see burning fuel in front and around the airplane but it did not look too bad to the forward. I opened the canopy and walked out on the refueling probe and jumped from the end of it, landing just on the edge of the fire and rolled clear.

    McCain said that he rushed to help another pilot who had gotten out of his plane and had jumped into the flames and rolled clear, but was still on fire.

    McCain, 1967 statement: I started running over towards him and I was near a group of men with a fire hose. As I was about 10 feet from him the first bomb exploded and blew me back about 15 feet. I sat up and saw a lot of bodies near me (some who had been on the hose) and I ran and jumped over the starboard cat walk [under the flight deck].
    That first bomb explosion was 90 seconds into the fire. Soon it ignited other bombs and other missiles. Later, on the hangar deck below the main flight deck, McCain said he and another officer, along with “a lot of fine enlisted men,” pushed several bomb carts overboard to keep them away from flaming fuel that was curling down from above. He later “noticed that I had a hole below my left knee with some metal in it, and two small shrapnel cuts in my thigh and shoulder.”

    The Forrestal was badly damaged and put out of action for two years. A little more than a month after the disaster, McCain was flying missions from another carrier, the USS Oriskany.

    Whose Plane?
    McCain has said for years that the missile struck his own plane, and this has been widely accepted. But official documents don’t support that. We now judge it more likely that the missile first struck a plane next to McCain’s and that his own memory of the event has changed in the years since.

    In his 1999 book “Faith of My Fathers,” McCain writes:

    McCain, 1999 (p. 177): I took my helmet back … and shut the plane’s canopy. In the next instant, a Zuni missile struck the belly fuel tank of my plane, tearing it open, igniting two hundred gallons of fuel that spilled onto the deck, and knocking two of my bombs to the deck.

    Author Gregory A. Freeman, in his 2002 book about the disaster, “Sailors to the End,” accepts that it was McCain’s plane that was hit:

    Freeman, 2002 (pp 104-105): McCain felt a huge impact as the Zuni rocket tore through his plane on the right side and exited on the left side, ripping open his fuel tank with four hundred gallons of JP5 jet fuel.

    The more recent account by James Caiella, however, comes to a different conclusion. Writing in 2003, Caiella points out, correctly, that the official Navy investigation into the disaster – the Manual of the Judge Advocate General Basic Final Investigative Report Concerning the Fire on Board the USS Forrestal (CVA-59) – concluded that the missile struck plane number 405, the A-4 piloted by Lt. Cdr. Fred White, who was among those killed in the incident. McCain’s plane was number 416, and was next to White’s, one plane forward toward the ship’s bow. Caiella has kindly provided us with official Navy summaries of the investigation documenting this finding. He has also allowed us to reproduce here a portion of a drawing he created, based on the Navy report, to illustrate his article. It shows the positions of the aircraft on deck at the time the fire began.



    Copyright 2003 by James M. Caiella. Used with permission. From “1051 Hell,” article in Fall 2003 issue of Foundation, a publication of the National Naval Aviation Museum, Pensacola, Fla. Plane #405 piloted by Lt. Cdr. Fred White; #416 by Lt. Cdr. John S. McCain


    Rear Admiral Forsyth Massey, commander in chief of the U.S. Atlantic Fleet, headed the Navy’s post-disaster investigation, and wrote in a summary that he sent up the chain of command on Sept. 19, 1967:

    Rear Adm Massey, Sept. 19, 1967: A review of the voluminous material contained in the Report of Investigation establishes the central fact that a ZUNI rocket was inadvertently fired from an F-4 aircraft (#110) and struck the external fuel tank of an A-4 aircraft (#405) which was clustered in a pack along with other aircraft on the deck of the USS FORRESTAL. This inadvertent firing of the rocket resulted in a raging fire.

    Massey makes no reference to McCain or plane number 416. Another summary, written by the Navy’s Judge Advocate General as he forwarded the report to the Chief of Naval Operations, also said the missile “struck A-4 #405” and set off the fire. That summary also says that “A fragment punctured the centerline external fuel tank of another A-4 just aft of the jet blast deflector of catapult #3” That second plane isn’t identified specifically, but McCain’s plane was fifth in line behind the catapults. Caiella says he believes it was plane #310.

    We also note that immediately after the disaster, when McCain’s recollection was still fresh, he was by no means certain whose plane had been hit. He said in his typed statement,

    McCain, 1967 statement: I was just ready to commence the aileron trim check… when I heard a loud explosion and immediate fire all around the airplane, at first I thought LCDR White’s airplane had exploded or the explosion had occurred beneath my starboard wing due to the proximity of the explosion. I now think that it might have been one aircraft further aft but I am not sure.

    McCain also expressed considerable uncertainty when investigators questioned him on Aug. 5 1967, just a week after the fire:

    Q: Did you think in your own mind at this point that something had hit your airplane or not?

    McCain: Yes, sir. The reason, looking back on it, I think I felt… I would like to add about my testimony, after seeing the bomb go off and the injuries involved, I was a little bit emotionally upset and some of the things that I may remember, I may not remember exactly. But when I saw LCDR Hope on the hangar deck, and I believe you can ask him about this, the first thing I said to him was, ‘Herb, I thought I had killed you.’ So I must have believed that it was from my aircraft at that time. Then I heard so many other stories as to what happened, I didn’t believe it was my aircraft. But at the time, I think, I believed that it was my aircraft or the one right next to it.

    We can’t resolve with perfect certainty which version is correct. Film of the disaster taken by a Navy camera cannot decide the matter because it was pointed away from the point of impact at the time the missile fired. By the time the camera swung quickly aft both McCain and White’s planes were enveloped in the spreading flames. (A narrated version has been posted on YouTube.)

    Much physical evidence was of course destroyed by the series of bomb explosions that began 90 seconds after the first impact. It is possible that the missile hit White’s plane and that fragments of it also hit McCain’s.

    We judge that the missile most likely hit White’s plane, not McCain’s. We base this on the unequivocal finding of the official investigation and the uncertainty that McCain expressed just a week after the event. His memory 32 years later, at the time he published the book, we consider less reliable. In fact, his 1999 version departs from the official report in other respects as well. He writes in his book that his plane carried 200 gallons of fuel, but the official report says the A-4s carried 400 gallons. McCain writes that “two of my bombs” were knocked to the deck, but the Judge Advocate General’s summary mentions only one bomb, a 1000-pounder that “fell onto the deck from A-4 #405,” White’s plane. McCain doesn’t mention bombs falling from his own plane in the testimony and statement he gave immediately after the disaster.

    No ‘Wet Start’
    A special note is in order here. We have seen some baseless claims that McCain was somehow responsible for the Forrestal disaster. One incorrect but widely quoted theory has him triggering the Zuni missile with the exhaust of his own plane by “wet-starting” – deliberately dumping fuel into the afterburner before starting in order to shoot a large flame from the tail of the aircraft. This is a preposterous notion. For one thing, A-4 jets flew at subsonic speeds and were not equipped with afterburners. According to the Military Analysis Network site maintained by the Federation of American Scientists, the A-4 was powered by a “Single, Pratt & Whitney, J-52-P-408A non-afterburning, turbojet engine.” The manufacturer’s description of the aircraft also describes the powerplant as “One 11,187-pound-thrust P&W J52-P408 engine,” with no mention of an afterburner.

    And while pilots tell us that a “wet start” is possible even without an afterburner, the theory fails for another reason. The tail of McCain’s plane was pointed over the side of the carrier and away from other planes at the time, and the F4 Phantom fighter that fired the missile was facing McCain’s plane from the opposite side of the deck, as shown in Caiella’s diagram, in other diagrams, and in Navy film of the fire.

    This bogus theory appears to have gotten its start from a report by New York Times reporter R. W. Apple. Jr, who reported on July 31, 1967 – two days after the fire – that the Forrestal’s captain, John K. Beling, believed an “extreme wet start” had created “a thick tongue of flame” that set off the Zuni. Beling did not identify McCain’s plane as the source, however, and said only that the aircraft was “parked near the carrier’s island,” which would have put it far forward and on the opposite side of the flight deck from where McCain’s plane was getting ready to launch. Not usually noted by the conspiracy theorists is that Capt. Beling “repeatedly said that he had been unable fully to sort out the conflicting reports” that circulated on the 5,000-man vessel in the hours after the fire, according to Apple, who also called the wet-start theory “tentative.” In any case, Beling’s early theory was soon dismissed by Navy investigators, who found that the Zuni had been touched off by a stray electrical charge, not by a jet exhaust. Author Freeman summarizes the findings succinctly in in “Sailors to the End:”

    Freeman, 2002 (p. 250): The investigation revealed that the rocket (fired) because a freak surge of electricity jumped through the plane’s system at the moment the pilot switched from the outside electrical generator to the plane’s internal power system.

    And as Caiella also notes in his account, the investigation found that in the wartime pressure to get planes launched quickly crews had not observed two key safety precautions that could have prevented the stray spike of electricity from firing the rocket. The “pigtail” that connects the plane’s wiring to the missile had been plugged in prematurely, before the plane was on the catapult, and a safety pin that also would have prevented the firing also had been removed.

    Freeman has posted an item on his own Web site flatly stating that McCain was in no way responsible for the accident. “McCain was never suspected of causing the fire because investigators determined immediately that the rocket misfired from the other side of the flight deck,” writes Freeman.

    Caiella agrees. He told us: “There is no possible way John McCain could have caused the fire on board the Forrestal. … McCain’s only connection with the investigation was as a witness, in both a written deposition shortly after the fire and later in sworn testimony to the board.”

    Shot Down
    The fourth plane McCain lost was of course the Skyhawk shot down over North Vietnam on Oct. 26, 1967. The previously mentioned official citation describes 15 enemy surface-to-air missiles fired at the attacking U.S. planes and “extremely heavy and accurate antiaircraft fire.” Far from blaming McCain for the loss of his plane, the Navy awarded him, in addition to the Distinguished Flying Cross, the Silver Star for his “conspicuous gallantry” while imprisoned by the North Vietnamese for the nearly five-and-a-half years that followed. Shortly after his release he was promoted again, to full commander.
    Sources
    Timberg, Robert. The Nightingale’s Song. New York, NY: Simon & Schuster, 1995. McCain, John and Salter, Mark, Faith of my Fathers. NY: Random House 1999.

    Vartabedian, Ralph and Serrano, Richard A. “Mishaps mark John McCain’s record as naval aviator” Los Angeles Times 6 Oct 2008 Caiella, James M. “1051 Hell,” Foundation magazine Fall 2003.

    Freeman, Gregory A. Sailors to the End. 2002. Federation of American Scientists, Military Analysis Network, “A-4 Skyhawk.” Web site accessed 8 Sept 2008. Boeing Corp. “History: A4D/A-4 Skyhawk Light Attack Bomber.” Web site accessed 8 Sept 2008.

    Apple, R.W. Jr., “FORRESTAL TOLL MAY REACH 125; 69 STILL MISSING; Rescue Teams Press Search but Little Hope Remains for the Other Crewmen SHIP WAS NEARLY LOST She Leaves Vietnam Combat Zone for Subic Bay Base –Tales of Heroism Told” New York Times 31 July 1967; A1.

    For Whatever Its Worth...

    There is likely much truth to all this...The 26 planes is a myth, though

    FactCheck.org (I don't want to provide FredSixPack any 'ammunition') Though I hope it would be obvious that I didn't write this...for better or for worst...

    Q: Did McCain crash five planes? Did he cause the 1967 Forrestal fire?

    A: No. Chain e-mails and Internet postings that make that claim are mistaken. One crash was found to be his fault, but the Navy commended his piloting skills.


    FULL QUESTION
    Is the information below true? I have heard that McCain crashed five planes. In searching the web I found this information. It was located at [DELETED] Thank you for more information.

    FULL ANSWER
    Update, Oct. 12: We have further updated this article to include details from newly released Navy records of an investigation that found McCain’s first crash was due to pilot error, and not, as McCain has stated, an engine failure. The L.A. Times story also pinpointed the dates of early incidents more closely, and we have rewritten and re-ordered some sections to reflect this new information.

    Update, Sept 19: This item was originally posted Sept. 5, 2008. We have updated it to include additional details of the 1967 Forrestal disaster from official documents, which differ from McCain’s own, widely accepted recollection. We have also included McCain’s admission of “daredevil clowning” in an accident that did not result in loss of his plane.

    We have had numerous questions about this widely circulated claim. Some say McCain “lost” five planes, others that he “crashed” five planes. All offer this alleged “fact” as evidence that he was a bad pilot. All are incorrect.

    McCain did lose two Navy aircraft while piloting them. One crash was found to be McCain’s fault, the other due to an engine failure of undetermined cause. A third was destroyed on the deck of the carrier USS Forrestal when a missile fired accidentally from another plane hit either the plane next to McCain’s or, less likely, his own aircraft, triggering a disastrous fire that killed 134 sailors and nearly killed McCain. A fourth plane was lost when he was shot down over North Vietnam on a bombing mission over Hanoi.

    A fifth alleged “crash” turns out to be a misinterpretation of a flight accident that did not result in the loss of the aircraft. McCain admitted to causing that incident through “daredevil clowning” but returned safely.

    ‘Superb Airmanship’
    None of these incidents prevented McCain from winning regular promotions and being assigned additional flight duty. The Navy praised his “aggressiveness and skillful airmanship” when awarding him the Navy Commendation Medal for an attack Oct. 18, 1967, on a shipyard in Haiphong, North Vietnam, prior to his capture. The Navy also commended his “superb airmanship” in awarding him the Distinguished Flying Cross for a bombing attack on a Hanoi power plant Oct. 26, 1967. His plane was hit by a surface-to-air missile on that mission, but he “continued his bomb delivery pass and released his bombs over the target” before being forced to eject, according to the official citation.

    The Navy has released and posted copies of McCain’s several medal citations and commendations. We have not seen any similar release of official reports of his accidents, or of his fitness reports as a young officer. However, we do have accounts of the incidents both from McCain himself and from his biographer, Robert Timberg, a former White House correspondent for the Baltimore Sun, and now editor of the U.S. Naval Institute’s magazine, Proceedings. Timberg’s award-winning book, “The Nightingale’s Song,” tells the story of McCain and four members of his Naval Academy class who later rose to prominence. It was published in 1995. McCain’s book “Faith of my Fathers” was published in 1999.

    Two Crashes, and ‘Daredevil Clowning’
    First Crash, March 12, 1960: This took place while McCain, a young, unmarried officer not long out of the Naval Academy, was in advanced flight training at Corpus Christi, Texas. Timberg and McCain both give the cause as engine failure, but a Navy investigation blamed McCain’s inattention to altitude.

    McCain, 1999 (pp155-156): I crashed a plane in Corpus Christi Bay one Saturday morning. The engine quit while I was practicing landings. … I barely managed to get the canopy open and swim to the surface. … I took a few painkillers and hit the sack to rest my aching back for a few hours. … I was out carousing, injured back and all, later that evening.

    Timberg’s account agrees, but Navy records do not. According to a Naval Aviation Safety Center report, obtained by the Los Angeles Times, investigators determined that the engine did not quit, and McCain was to blame:

    Los Angeles Times, Oct. 6, 2008: Cockpit instruments that froze on impact showed the engine was still producing power. When water quenched the exhaust stack, it preserved a bright blue color, showing that the engine was still hot. And an aviator behind McCain reported that the engine was producing the black smoke characteristic of Skyraiders.

    Investigators determined that McCain was watching instruments in his cockpit that indicated the position of his landing gear and had lost track of his altitude and speed.

    The report concluded: “In the opinion of the board, the pilot’s preoccupation in the cockpit … coupled with the use of a power setting too low to maintain level flight in a turn were the primary causes of this accident.”

    “Clowning” in Spain, about December 1961: Those who claim McCain lost five planes – when they bother to give specific citations at all – point to an incident described by McCain, and also in Timberg’s book, as happening on one of McCain’s deployments to the Mediterranean. The L.A. Times put the date of the incident as “around December 1961,” while McCain was on a training mission flying from the USS Intrepid.

    Timberg, 1995 (p. 94): His professional growth, though reasonably steady, had its troubled moments. Flying low over the Iberian Peninsula, he took out some power lines, which led to a spate of newspaper stories in which he was predictably identified as the son of an admiral. The tale has gotten better with age. These days they talk about the day McCain turned the lights out in Spain.

    McCain described it this way in “Faith of My Fathers,” which was published four years after Timberg’s account:

    McCain, 1999 (p. 159): There were occasional setbacks in my efforts to round out my Navy profile. My reputation was certainly not enhanced when I knocked down some power lines while flying too low over southern Spain. My daredevil clowning had cut off electricity to a great many Spanish homes and created a small international incident.

    The L.A. Times, which interviewed others who were in McCain’s squadron at the time, reports that he returned to the carrier with 10 feet of power line trailing from his plan, and with a severed oil line. But while McCain himself admits this incident was cause by his own “daredevil clowning,” he landed safely and did not lose the aircraft. McCain’s detractors should scratch that “crash” off their list.

    Despite the incident in Spain, and the earlier finding that McCain was to blame for the Corpus Christi crash, McCain was promoted to full lieutenant on June 1, 1962.

    Second crash, Nov. 28 1965: By this time Lt. McCain was stationed at Meridian, Mississippi, and was newly married to his first wife, Carol. McCain had flown to Philadelphia to attend an Army-Navy football game with his parents and was bringing back Christmas presents for the family in the baggage compartment of his plane. His jet engine quit over the Chesapeake Bay.

    McCain, 1999 (p. 172): Somewhere between the Eastern Shore of Maryland and Norfolk, Virginia, as I was preparing to come in and refuel, my engine flamed out, and I had to eject at a thousand feet. The Christmas gifts were lost with my airplane.

    Biographer Timberg gives additional details:

    Timberg, 1995 (pp 95-96): [He] had just begun his descent over unpopulated tidal terrain when the engine died. “I’ve got a flame-out,” he radioed. He went through the standard relight procedures three times. At one thousand feet, he ejected, landing on the deserted beach moments before the plane slammed into a clump of trees. … The Navy classified it as a “routine ejection.”

    The L.A. Times obtained records of the investigation of this crash, giving a somewhat different picture but ultimately blaming engine failure:

    Los Angeles Times, Oct. 8, 2008: In a report dated Jan. 18, 1966, the Naval Aviation Safety Center said it could not determine the cause of the accident or corroborate McCain’s account of an explosion in the engine. A close examination of the engine found “no discrepancies which would have caused or contributed to engine failure or malfunction.” . . . About two weeks after issuing its report, the safety center revised its findings and said the accident resulted from the failure or malfunction of an “undetermined component of the engine.”

    A little more than a year later McCain was promoted to lieutenant commander on Jan. 1, 1967.

    The Forrestal Disaster, July 29, 1967
    At the time of this incident Lt. Cdr. McCain already had flown several bombing missions over North Vietnam from the aircraft carrier USS Forrestal. As he was in his A-4 Skyhawk, loaded with two, 1,000-pound bombs and waiting on the carrier deck for his turn to launch, a Zuni missile accidentally fired from another aircraft, swooshed across the carrier deck and struck either McCain’s plane or one next to it.

    That triggered a fire and a series of bomb and missile explosions that killed 134 sailors. McCain himself barely escaped alive. He quickly leaped from his plane into the pool of burning jet fuel that immediately surrounded him. About 90 seconds later he was blown 15 feet back when the first bomb “cooked off” and exploded, killing several nearby firefighters.

    James M. Caiella has written a scholarly article about the disaster, which appeared in the Fall 2003 issue of Foundation magazine, a publication of the National Naval Aviation Museum, located in Pensacola, Fla. Caiella, who is now associate editor of Proceedings and Naval History magazines, published by the U.S. Naval Institute in Annapolis, generously shared with us copies of some key documents which he obtained from the Navy under the Freedom of Information Act. They include a typed transcript of the sworn testimony that McCain gave less than two weeks after the disaster, on Aug. 5, 1967, and also a written statement he submitted prior to his testimony, describing the first moments of the disaster:

    McCain, 1967 statement: I heard a loud explosion and immediate fire all around the airplane . . . Smoke and flame were around the cockpit so I unstrapped . . . and unplugged my oxygen hose, keeping my visor down. I looked to the aft of the airplane and saw nothing but flame and I could see burning fuel in front and around the airplane but it did not look too bad to the forward. I opened the canopy and walked out on the refueling probe and jumped from the end of it, landing just on the edge of the fire and rolled clear.

    McCain said that he rushed to help another pilot who had gotten out of his plane and had jumped into the flames and rolled clear, but was still on fire.

    McCain, 1967 statement: I started running over towards him and I was near a group of men with a fire hose. As I was about 10 feet from him the first bomb exploded and blew me back about 15 feet. I sat up and saw a lot of bodies near me (some who had been on the hose) and I ran and jumped over the starboard cat walk [under the flight deck].
    That first bomb explosion was 90 seconds into the fire. Soon it ignited other bombs and other missiles. Later, on the hangar deck below the main flight deck, McCain said he and another officer, along with “a lot of fine enlisted men,” pushed several bomb carts overboard to keep them away from flaming fuel that was curling down from above. He later “noticed that I had a hole below my left knee with some metal in it, and two small shrapnel cuts in my thigh and shoulder.”

    The Forrestal was badly damaged and put out of action for two years. A little more than a month after the disaster, McCain was flying missions from another carrier, the USS Oriskany.

    Whose Plane?
    McCain has said for years that the missile struck his own plane, and this has been widely accepted. But official documents don’t support that. We now judge it more likely that the missile first struck a plane next to McCain’s and that his own memory of the event has changed in the years since.

    In his 1999 book “Faith of My Fathers,” McCain writes:

    McCain, 1999 (p. 177): I took my helmet back … and shut the plane’s canopy. In the next instant, a Zuni missile struck the belly fuel tank of my plane, tearing it open, igniting two hundred gallons of fuel that spilled onto the deck, and knocking two of my bombs to the deck.

    Author Gregory A. Freeman, in his 2002 book about the disaster, “Sailors to the End,” accepts that it was McCain’s plane that was hit:

    Freeman, 2002 (pp 104-105): McCain felt a huge impact as the Zuni rocket tore through his plane on the right side and exited on the left side, ripping open his fuel tank with four hundred gallons of JP5 jet fuel.

    The more recent account by James Caiella, however, comes to a different conclusion. Writing in 2003, Caiella points out, correctly, that the official Navy investigation into the disaster – the Manual of the Judge Advocate General Basic Final Investigative Report Concerning the Fire on Board the USS Forrestal (CVA-59) – concluded that the missile struck plane number 405, the A-4 piloted by Lt. Cdr. Fred White, who was among those killed in the incident. McCain’s plane was number 416, and was next to White’s, one plane forward toward the ship’s bow. Caiella has kindly provided us with official Navy summaries of the investigation documenting this finding. He has also allowed us to reproduce here a portion of a drawing he created, based on the Navy report, to illustrate his article. It shows the positions of the aircraft on deck at the time the fire began.



    Copyright 2003 by James M. Caiella. Used with permission. From “1051 Hell,” article in Fall 2003 issue of Foundation, a publication of the National Naval Aviation Museum, Pensacola, Fla. Plane #405 piloted by Lt. Cdr. Fred White; #416 by Lt. Cdr. John S. McCain


    Rear Admiral Forsyth Massey, commander in chief of the U.S. Atlantic Fleet, headed the Navy’s post-disaster investigation, and wrote in a summary that he sent up the chain of command on Sept. 19, 1967:

    Rear Adm Massey, Sept. 19, 1967: A review of the voluminous material contained in the Report of Investigation establishes the central fact that a ZUNI rocket was inadvertently fired from an F-4 aircraft (#110) and struck the external fuel tank of an A-4 aircraft (#405) which was clustered in a pack along with other aircraft on the deck of the USS FORRESTAL. This inadvertent firing of the rocket resulted in a raging fire.

    Massey makes no reference to McCain or plane number 416. Another summary, written by the Navy’s Judge Advocate General as he forwarded the report to the Chief of Naval Operations, also said the missile “struck A-4 #405” and set off the fire. That summary also says that “A fragment punctured the centerline external fuel tank of another A-4 just aft of the jet blast deflector of catapult #3” That second plane isn’t identified specifically, but McCain’s plane was fifth in line behind the catapults. Caiella says he believes it was plane #310.

    We also note that immediately after the disaster, when McCain’s recollection was still fresh, he was by no means certain whose plane had been hit. He said in his typed statement,

    McCain, 1967 statement: I was just ready to commence the aileron trim check… when I heard a loud explosion and immediate fire all around the airplane, at first I thought LCDR White’s airplane had exploded or the explosion had occurred beneath my starboard wing due to the proximity of the explosion. I now think that it might have been one aircraft further aft but I am not sure.

    McCain also expressed considerable uncertainty when investigators questioned him on Aug. 5 1967, just a week after the fire:

    Q: Did you think in your own mind at this point that something had hit your airplane or not?

    McCain: Yes, sir. The reason, looking back on it, I think I felt… I would like to add about my testimony, after seeing the bomb go off and the injuries involved, I was a little bit emotionally upset and some of the things that I may remember, I may not remember exactly. But when I saw LCDR Hope on the hangar deck, and I believe you can ask him about this, the first thing I said to him was, ‘Herb, I thought I had killed you.’ So I must have believed that it was from my aircraft at that time. Then I heard so many other stories as to what happened, I didn’t believe it was my aircraft. But at the time, I think, I believed that it was my aircraft or the one right next to it.

    We can’t resolve with perfect certainty which version is correct. Film of the disaster taken by a Navy camera cannot decide the matter because it was pointed away from the point of impact at the time the missile fired. By the time the camera swung quickly aft both McCain and White’s planes were enveloped in the spreading flames. (A narrated version has been posted on YouTube.)

    Much physical evidence was of course destroyed by the series of bomb explosions that began 90 seconds after the first impact. It is possible that the missile hit White’s plane and that fragments of it also hit McCain’s.

    We judge that the missile most likely hit White’s plane, not McCain’s. We base this on the unequivocal finding of the official investigation and the uncertainty that McCain expressed just a week after the event. His memory 32 years later, at the time he published the book, we consider less reliable. In fact, his 1999 version departs from the official report in other respects as well. He writes in his book that his plane carried 200 gallons of fuel, but the official report says the A-4s carried 400 gallons. McCain writes that “two of my bombs” were knocked to the deck, but the Judge Advocate General’s summary mentions only one bomb, a 1000-pounder that “fell onto the deck from A-4 #405,” White’s plane. McCain doesn’t mention bombs falling from his own plane in the testimony and statement he gave immediately after the disaster.

    No ‘Wet Start’
    A special note is in order here. We have seen some baseless claims that McCain was somehow responsible for the Forrestal disaster. One incorrect but widely quoted theory has him triggering the Zuni missile with the exhaust of his own plane by “wet-starting” – deliberately dumping fuel into the afterburner before starting in order to shoot a large flame from the tail of the aircraft. This is a preposterous notion. For one thing, A-4 jets flew at subsonic speeds and were not equipped with afterburners. According to the Military Analysis Network site maintained by the Federation of American Scientists, the A-4 was powered by a “Single, Pratt & Whitney, J-52-P-408A non-afterburning, turbojet engine.” The manufacturer’s description of the aircraft also describes the powerplant as “One 11,187-pound-thrust P&W J52-P408 engine,” with no mention of an afterburner.

    And while pilots tell us that a “wet start” is possible even without an afterburner, the theory fails for another reason. The tail of McCain’s plane was pointed over the side of the carrier and away from other planes at the time, and the F4 Phantom fighter that fired the missile was facing McCain’s plane from the opposite side of the deck, as shown in Caiella’s diagram, in other diagrams, and in Navy film of the fire.

    This bogus theory appears to have gotten its start from a report by New York Times reporter R. W. Apple. Jr, who reported on July 31, 1967 – two days after the fire – that the Forrestal’s captain, John K. Beling, believed an “extreme wet start” had created “a thick tongue of flame” that set off the Zuni. Beling did not identify McCain’s plane as the source, however, and said only that the aircraft was “parked near the carrier’s island,” which would have put it far forward and on the opposite side of the flight deck from where McCain’s plane was getting ready to launch. Not usually noted by the conspiracy theorists is that Capt. Beling “repeatedly said that he had been unable fully to sort out the conflicting reports” that circulated on the 5,000-man vessel in the hours after the fire, according to Apple, who also called the wet-start theory “tentative.” In any case, Beling’s early theory was soon dismissed by Navy investigators, who found that the Zuni had been touched off by a stray electrical charge, not by a jet exhaust. Author Freeman summarizes the findings succinctly in in “Sailors to the End:”

    Freeman, 2002 (p. 250): The investigation revealed that the rocket (fired) because a freak surge of electricity jumped through the plane’s system at the moment the pilot switched from the outside electrical generator to the plane’s internal power system.

    And as Caiella also notes in his account, the investigation found that in the wartime pressure to get planes launched quickly crews had not observed two key safety precautions that could have prevented the stray spike of electricity from firing the rocket. The “pigtail” that connects the plane’s wiring to the missile had been plugged in prematurely, before the plane was on the catapult, and a safety pin that also would have prevented the firing also had been removed.

    Freeman has posted an item on his own Web site flatly stating that McCain was in no way responsible for the accident. “McCain was never suspected of causing the fire because investigators determined immediately that the rocket misfired from the other side of the flight deck,” writes Freeman.

    Caiella agrees. He told us: “There is no possible way John McCain could have caused the fire on board the Forrestal. … McCain’s only connection with the investigation was as a witness, in both a written deposition shortly after the fire and later in sworn testimony to the board.”

    Shot Down
    The fourth plane McCain lost was of course the Skyhawk shot down over North Vietnam on Oct. 26, 1967. The previously mentioned official citation describes 15 enemy surface-to-air missiles fired at the attacking U.S. planes and “extremely heavy and accurate antiaircraft fire.” Far from blaming McCain for the loss of his plane, the Navy awarded him, in addition to the Distinguished Flying Cross, the Silver Star for his “conspicuous gallantry” while imprisoned by the North Vietnamese for the nearly five-and-a-half years that followed. Shortly after his release he was promoted again, to full commander.
    Sources
    Timberg, Robert. The Nightingale’s Song. New York, NY: Simon & Schuster, 1995. McCain, John and Salter, Mark, Faith of my Fathers. NY: Random House 1999.

    Vartabedian, Ralph and Serrano, Richard A. “Mishaps mark John McCain’s record as naval aviator” Los Angeles Times 6 Oct 2008 Caiella, James M. “1051 Hell,” Foundation magazine Fall 2003.

    Freeman, Gregory A. Sailors to the End. 2002. Federation of American Scientists, Military Analysis Network, “A-4 Skyhawk.” Web site accessed 8 Sept 2008. Boeing Corp. “History: A4D/A-4 Skyhawk Light Attack Bomber.” Web site accessed 8 Sept 2008.

    Apple, R.W. Jr., “FORRESTAL TOLL MAY REACH 125; 69 STILL MISSING; Rescue Teams Press Search but Little Hope Remains for the Other Crewmen SHIP WAS NEARLY LOST She Leaves Vietnam Combat Zone for Subic Bay Base –Tales of Heroism Told” New York Times 31 July 1967; A1.
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Emil El Zapato For This Useful Post:

    Aragorn (3rd September 2018), Chris (4th September 2018), Dumpster Diver (3rd September 2018)

  3. #167
    Retired Member United States
    Join Date
    2nd December 2015
    Location
    American Southwest (currently)
    Posts
    2,602
    Thanks
    12,814
    Thanked 13,156 Times in 2,620 Posts
    Maybe we need to change the thread name to:

    “Let’s all sh!t on McCain”

  4. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Dumpster Diver For This Useful Post:

    Aragorn (3rd September 2018), Chris (4th September 2018), Emil El Zapato (3rd September 2018), modwiz (4th September 2018)

  5. #168
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
    Join Date
    3rd April 2017
    Location
    Earth I
    Posts
    12,193
    Thanks
    36,647
    Thanked 43,101 Times in 11,916 Posts
    Quote Originally posted by Dumpster Diver View Post
    Maybe we need to change the thread name to:

    “Let’s all sh!t on McCain”
    yeah, I'm not sure I understand the point of all this. 'Trump propaganda?' 'Q'...pfaw...or sumpin' like that...
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

  6. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Emil El Zapato For This Useful Post:

    Aragorn (3rd September 2018), Chris (4th September 2018), Dumpster Diver (4th September 2018), Kathy (4th September 2018)

  7. #169
    Retired Member Hungary
    Join Date
    10th July 2018
    Posts
    1,862
    Thanks
    4,696
    Thanked 8,908 Times in 1,858 Posts
    Like I said before Dmitry Orlov does have a strong anti-US and pro-Russia bias, so obviously take all that he writes with a grain of salt. Knowing this, I still find his writing very valuable. His premise is that the US and much of the industrialised world with it is going to collapse in the foreseeable future, much like the Soviet Union did. He was a witness to the collapse of the SU and has analysed it very carefully mostly from an engineering and physics background. He has made a similar detailed analysis of the US and has identified the similarities and differences in collapse-preparedness and how a collapse is likely to play out in the US (and much of the Western Industrialised World) vis-a-vis the erstwhile SU. He calls the lack of preparedness on the side of the West the collapse gap, as his contention is that rich countries are much less prepared for a coming collapse than poor ones, and particularly the SU did, which was exceptionally well-prepared, inadvertently, and went through the process without totally destroying itself. His essays and books are well worth reading if you really are interested in how the collapse of a civilisation might look like and how you might prepare yourself for such an eventuality.


    Maybe he was a bit harsh on Mc Cain, but then Mc Cain was a sworn enemy of Russia, so you can't really blame him for coming down on him hard. I don't share Orlov's pro-Russian and Anti-American bias, but it is worth examining other points of view to get a full picture of what's going on in the world.

  8. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Chris For This Useful Post:

    Aragorn (4th September 2018), Dumpster Diver (4th September 2018), Emil El Zapato (4th September 2018), Kathy (4th September 2018)

  9. #170
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
    Join Date
    1st May 2016
    Location
    U.S.A.
    Posts
    2,644
    Thanks
    4,968
    Thanked 12,015 Times in 2,615 Posts
    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    FactCheck.org (I don't want to provide FredSixPack any 'ammunition') Though I hope it would be obvious that I didn't write this...for better or for worser...
    I'm going to use your buddy Wade (my choir of 2) Frazier as an example, while sticking with the John McCain theme:

    Example A: There is much to be said about John McCain: From prisoner of war, fighter pilot, senator, proud patriot, loving husband and father, to a man who was a war monger and supporter of ISIS. Life is complicated, and we wear many hats along the way. Like him I've worn many hats, and while some things I've done I'm still proud of looking back upon to this day, others I can only hang my head in shame about.

    The only saving grace is the ever present possibility of using those not so proud moments as lessons of what never to do again, to learn from them, to morph misdeeds into wisdom. It's all a matter of how we handle the cards we are dealt, and do we learn from our mistakes.

    My journey is difficult to believe. Even I sometimes look back on my life and find it hard to believe, but I was there for it.

    Example B: There is much to be said about John McCain: From war hero, prisoner of war, fighter pilot, senator, proud patriot, loving husband and father, to a man who was a war monger and supporter of ISIS. Life is complicated, and we wear many hats along the way. Like him I've worn many hats, and while some things I've done I'm still proud of looking back upon to this day, others I can only hang my head in shame about.

    The only saving grace is the ever present possibility of using those not so proud moments as lessons of what never to do again, to learn from them, to morph misdeeds into wisdom. It's all a matter of how we handle the cards we are dealt, and do we learn from our mistakes.

    I think your buddy Wade Frazier summed it up best:

    My journey is difficult to believe. Even I sometimes look back on my life and find it hard to believe, but I was there for it.
    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...t=#post1245574


    Example A is pretty much what you did in that other thread,
    https://jandeane81.com/showthread.ph...#post842000137

    and why I called you out on it.

    Example B is the way it should be done, and you should be well aware of that by now.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

  10. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Fred Steeves For This Useful Post:

    Aragorn (4th September 2018), Dumpster Diver (4th September 2018), Emil El Zapato (4th September 2018), modwiz (4th September 2018)

  11. #171
    Retired Member United States
    Join Date
    2nd December 2015
    Location
    American Southwest (currently)
    Posts
    2,602
    Thanks
    12,814
    Thanked 13,156 Times in 2,620 Posts
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5vjfAn...ature=youtu.be

    The Chicken Cordon Bleu crowd has emerged...

    ...they seem to be running things themselves, or at least CG’s patron, Roger Ramjet (Ramseur?) is paying for things ( mentioned in the talk).

    ...and here I was worried the pose poor guys were off starving in some cave, being hunted down by Darth Hatman’s Kool-aid stand crowd...

    ———————-

    Btw, I tried every which way to make the video embed properly...my only conclusion is: TOT’s interface HATES iPads

  12. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Dumpster Diver For This Useful Post:

    Aragorn (4th September 2018), Emil El Zapato (4th September 2018), modwiz (4th September 2018)

  13. #172
    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    17th March 2015
    Location
    Middle-Earth
    Posts
    20,241
    Thanks
    88,440
    Thanked 80,975 Times in 20,256 Posts
    Quote Originally posted by Dumpster Diver View Post

    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vjfAnrp77I


    There, I fixed it for you.

    Quote Originally posted by Dumpster Diver View Post
    Btw, I tried every which way to make the video embed properly...my only conclusion is: TOT’s interface HATES iPads
    I strongly suspect that the problem is to be found between the iPad and the chair.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

  14. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Aragorn For This Useful Post:

    Dumpster Diver (4th September 2018), Emil El Zapato (4th September 2018), Kathy (4th September 2018), modwiz (4th September 2018)

  15. #173
    Senior Member Morocco modwiz's Avatar
    Join Date
    13th September 2013
    Location
    Nestled in Appalachia
    Posts
    6,720
    Thanks
    40,125
    Thanked 41,242 Times in 6,698 Posts
    Quote Originally posted by Dumpster Diver View Post
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5vjfAn...ature=youtu.be

    The Chicken Cordon Bleu crowd has emerged...

    ...they seem to be running things themselves, or at least CG’s patron, Roger Ramjet (Ramseur?) is paying for things ( mentioned in the talk).

    ...and here I was worried the pose poor guys were off starving in some cave, being hunted down by Darth Hatman’s Kool-aid stand crowd...

    ———————-

    Btw, I tried every which way to make the video embed properly...my only conclusion is: TOT’s interface HATES iPads
    Why do you post garbage like this? Maybe your difficulty posting it was Divine Intervention.
    "To learn who rules over you simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" -- Voltaire

    "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."-- Eleanor Roosevelt

    "Misery loves company. Wisdom has to look for it." -- Anonymous

  16. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to modwiz For This Useful Post:

    Dumpster Diver (4th September 2018), Emil El Zapato (4th September 2018), Kathy (4th September 2018)

  17. #174
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
    Join Date
    1st May 2016
    Location
    U.S.A.
    Posts
    2,644
    Thanks
    4,968
    Thanked 12,015 Times in 2,615 Posts
    Quote Originally posted by modwiz View Post
    Why do you post garbage like this?
    ROFL!
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Fred Steeves For This Useful Post:

    Dumpster Diver (4th September 2018), modwiz (4th September 2018)

  19. #175
    Retired Member United States
    Join Date
    2nd December 2015
    Location
    American Southwest (currently)
    Posts
    2,602
    Thanks
    12,814
    Thanked 13,156 Times in 2,620 Posts
    Quote Originally posted by modwiz View Post
    Why do you post garbage like this? Maybe your difficulty posting it was Divine Intervention.
    Probably the same reason I’m a diabetic eating chocolate with hazelnuts...I know they are bad for me but...

    ...and I am too lazy to get up and do it on the Mac, where I could easily do it, so I complain to the Ewok because he seems to enjoy such...

    Divine intervention? Probably...God and I are not seeing eye to eye lately...

  20. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Dumpster Diver For This Useful Post:

    Aragorn (5th September 2018), Emil El Zapato (4th September 2018), modwiz (4th September 2018)

  21. #176
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
    Join Date
    3rd April 2017
    Location
    Earth I
    Posts
    12,193
    Thanks
    36,647
    Thanked 43,101 Times in 11,916 Posts
    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    I'm going to use your buddy Wade (my choir of 2) Frazier as an example, while sticking with the John McCain theme:

    Example A: There is much to be said about John McCain: From prisoner of war, fighter pilot, senator, proud patriot, loving husband and father, to a man who was a war monger and supporter of ISIS. Life is complicated, and we wear many hats along the way. Like him I've worn many hats, and while some things I've done I'm still proud of looking back upon to this day, others I can only hang my head in shame about.

    The only saving grace is the ever present possibility of using those not so proud moments as lessons of what never to do again, to learn from them, to morph misdeeds into wisdom. It's all a matter of how we handle the cards we are dealt, and do we learn from our mistakes.

    My journey is difficult to believe. Even I sometimes look back on my life and find it hard to believe, but I was there for it.

    Example B: There is much to be said about John McCain: From war hero, prisoner of war, fighter pilot, senator, proud patriot, loving husband and father, to a man who was a war monger and supporter of ISIS. Life is complicated, and we wear many hats along the way. Like him I've worn many hats, and while some things I've done I'm still proud of looking back upon to this day, others I can only hang my head in shame about.

    The only saving grace is the ever present possibility of using those not so proud moments as lessons of what never to do again, to learn from them, to morph misdeeds into wisdom. It's all a matter of how we handle the cards we are dealt, and do we learn from our mistakes.

    I think your buddy Wade Frazier summed it up best:


    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...t=#post1245574


    Example A is pretty much what you did in that other thread,
    https://jandeane81.com/showthread.ph...#post842000137

    and why I called you out on it.

    Example B is the way it should be done, and you should be well aware of that by now.
    It's hard to disbelieve a sentiment like that...

    Did you tell the Topic of Topics that I was watching their dysfunction with interest? I can't see them anymore.

    NAP

    p.s. In light of Woodward's new book, I've had an epiphany of sorts. The deep state IS out to get Trump. I think they are working in concert with Trump's (his people) royal guard out of fear for the world and the U.S. It's not like I didn't say this 3 years ago...Trump is nuts!
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

  22. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Emil El Zapato For This Useful Post:

    Aragorn (5th September 2018), Dumpster Diver (5th September 2018)

  23. #177
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
    Join Date
    3rd April 2017
    Location
    Earth I
    Posts
    12,193
    Thanks
    36,647
    Thanked 43,101 Times in 11,916 Posts
    Quote Originally posted by Dumpster Diver View Post
    Probably the same reason I’m a diabetic eating chocolate with hazelnuts...I know they are bad for me but...

    ...and I am too lazy to get up and do it on the Mac, where I could easily do it, so I complain to the Ewok because he seems to enjoy such...

    Divine intervention? Probably...God and I are not seeing eye to eye lately...
    I'm not surprised he's mad at you DD...the way you talk about him... tongue-in-cheek...please...
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

  24. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Emil El Zapato For This Useful Post:

    Aragorn (5th September 2018), Dumpster Diver (5th September 2018)

  25. #178
    Retired Member United States
    Join Date
    2nd December 2015
    Location
    American Southwest (currently)
    Posts
    2,602
    Thanks
    12,814
    Thanked 13,156 Times in 2,620 Posts
    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    I'm not surprised he's mad at you DD...the way you talk about him... tongue-in-cheek...please...
    My God is pissed at everybody! As I’m Nordic, my god is Odin...pretty much the same as Zeus and the Christian God Yahweh. He (and he is very male) zaps folks with lightning in his Zeus/Odin form and demands the sacrifice of infants, creates weapons of mass destruction (the Arc), wipes out other tribes in favor of his “chosen people” in his “Christian” (but actually Jewish) form.

    So yeah, now that I’m getting a clue, he’s not happy...

    Come the revolution, we’re tossing his angry ass out...

  26. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Dumpster Diver For This Useful Post:

    Aragorn (5th September 2018), Emil El Zapato (5th September 2018), modwiz (5th September 2018)

  27. #179
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
    Join Date
    3rd April 2017
    Location
    Earth I
    Posts
    12,193
    Thanks
    36,647
    Thanked 43,101 Times in 11,916 Posts
    Those are only the God/s you've been told about...the real one is out there listening to good hearts with a perfect ear...
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

  28. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Emil El Zapato For This Useful Post:

    Aragorn (5th September 2018), Dumpster Diver (5th September 2018)

  29. #180
    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    17th March 2015
    Location
    Middle-Earth
    Posts
    20,241
    Thanks
    88,440
    Thanked 80,975 Times in 20,256 Posts
    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    Those are only the God/s you've been told about...the real one is out there listening to good hearts with a perfect ear...
    Now that's a great joke. Go on, tell us another one.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

  30. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Aragorn For This Useful Post:

    Dreamtimer (5th September 2018), Dumpster Diver (5th September 2018), Emil El Zapato (5th September 2018)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •