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Thread: Rhosgobel Tent At TOT

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    Quote Originally posted by PurpleLama View Post
    All very well said, as usual, Strider.

    For the faith vs belief question, what I am pointing at is perhaps a meaning or definition that is lost to time and manipulation. Think more along the lines of "what if the scientific method were applied to spiritual/psychic phenomena" and it would begin to get closer to what I am driving at. Your addition is valid, of course, but as applied to the conventional wisdom as to the meaning of the word.

    While we lack real evidence (that we can recognize as such) that high scientific principles operated in ancient times, we do have real objects that defy modern engineering. As much as in the Bible, we have the term faith applied to miracles such as healing the sick, raising the dead, walking on water, in the idea that I am having, such would also be applied to how do we move a 500 ton stone and align it simultaneously to magnetic north and some constellation in the sky. It is a real physics of consciousness that is utterly lost, so now we have relativelt nebulously collective memory of something like faith, or magic, or miracles.
    Indeed, there is no doubt that a lot of spiritual awareness and metaphysical prowess has been lost over the millennia.

    As a practical example, there was a talk show — with some music interspersing the interviews — here on a local television show in the early 1990s, in which the show's host gave a team of engineers and scientists an assignment at the start of the very first episode of the show, namely to plan and calculate the construction of the Great Pyramid of Cheops with today's technology and knowledge.

    At the end of the episode, he went back to the team and asked them about their findings. The startling conclusion was that they would have needed at a bare minimum 35 years longer to construct an identical pyramid today than the Egyptians themselves had needed thousands of years ago.





    Quote Originally posted by PurpleLama View Post
    As for my use of the term devil, substitute Satan (the accuser- the part of the mind which accuses- which also DOUBTS and disbelieves the truth) and Lucifer (lightbringer- bringer of wisdom or enlightenment- be careful what you wish for) as you will, whichever word you use and thereby whichever etymology applies, such will yeild only more information and applicability, richness if you will, of the concept.
    Your distinct categorization of the two metaphors Satan and Lucifer is very interesting. Of course, Lucifer as an entity is a pure concoction of the Catholics, because Lucifer as a fallen angel was never mentioned anywhere in the original Abrahamic scriptures until the mistranslation from Latin to English under King James.

    The actual passage with the mistranslation/misinterpretation was part of a sarcastic letter written by Isaiah to the then-king of Babylon — a very mortal man — in which Isaiah confronted said king with his moral corruption and metaphorically described him as a fallen angel.

    Later on, John Milton wrote his "Paradise Lost" and took this metaphor — the Latin word "light-bearer" literally taken over in the King James Bible as the proper name Lucifer — as the name of the first angel ever created and "loved above all others", who then corrupted the minds of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden out of spite towards the Creator. Although the Roman Catholic Church initially would not acknowledge that the Satan of the Old Testament was in fact the first and originally highest-ranking of all angels, they later on adopted Milton's description as dogma, despite the absence of any existing canonical references.

    Later on still, the Gnostics — I know modwiz is going to disagree with me on this — adopted the story of Adam and Eve into their own mythology regarding the creation of mankind, including the appearance of the serpent that told Eve to eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, except that in the Gnostic vision, the snake was not a fallen angel, but merely an animal that was temporarily possessed by Sophia in order to inform Eve that the being Adam and Eve thought was the Creator of the entire universe, was actually the Demiurge, who through his laws prevented humanity from gaining knowledge, so that he could continue ruling over them.

    Regardless of all the above, both stories are only mythology and metaphors, but they do lead to an interesting spiritual conundrum. In the Catholic metaphor, Lucifer corrupted Adam and Eve. In the Gnostic metaphor, Lucifer — in reality, Sophia — enlightened Adam and Eve, as per your own distinction above.

    The conundrum is that both interpretations of the metaphor can be considered valid at the same time, depending on one's viewing angle.


    • If the mind is not ready to receive certain knowledge, then this knowledge can be considered corruption, or otherwise put, a loss of innocence. As an example, I am now for instance thinking of something I posted on another thread recently, with regard to very young children who were sold by their parents to human traffickers for deployment in the child prostitution and child pornography industry. I doubt whether anyone would dare to contest that this would be a clear-cut case of murdered innocence. Even if those children were rescued from the claws of their heartless overlords, they will never be the same again as they were before it all happened, or as other children of their age are who did not end up as sex fodder for perverts.

      But it doesn't have to be so nasty. There are yet other ways in which knowledge could corrupt, and possibly take away one's innocence. Imagine that you'd have a time machine and you went back to the middle ages, where you would be sharing modern technology — among which assault rifles — to the locals. Then you too will have changed their knowledge and deprived them of a certain innocence, by giving them the tools that, for lack of wisdom, could lead them into their own destruction.

      This interpretation of the metaphor was later on reiterated in some versions of the Bible — the ones I've read over here did not have this passage — as the story of the 200 Grigori who came down to Earth, mated with the Daughters of Man and taught men how to make weapons, as well as teaching women how to fashion makeup and jewelry in order to seduce men.


    • If on the other hand the knowledge withheld from humanity were something completely different, as for instance knowledge regarding genuinely benevolent subjects such as spiritual enlightenment regarding the oneness of all and how all humans are equal and free, then the metaphorical Lucifer — or the snake possessed by Sophia — can be regarded as a liberator, and the deity whose law was broken as an oppressor. This is the Gnostic vantage.



    The big conundrum is that these two interpretations are not necessarily contradictory. They can be one and the same thing, depending on the nature of the imparted knowledge and the spiritual maturity of the recipient. So in the end, perhaps one should best stop seeing the metaphor of Adam and Eve eating from the Forbidden Fruit and their resulting exodus from Eden as either a good thing or a bad thing. It was merely a thing that metaphorically happened. Mankind obtained knowledge that it either wasn't ready for, or that it desperately needed in order to break free from a tyrant.

    And if you then regard that in and of itself as a metaphor, then it starts looking very much like the coming of age, when children move out from underneath their parents' wings, leave the parental house, and start a life of their own — a life in which they will encounter situations they're not ready for yet, and/or that sets them free from their controlling parents.

    In my own and very personal case, moving out of my parents' house was both of those things at the same time. And the then-young lady involved could indeed in some regards also in retrospect be regarded as either a corrupt fallen angel, or as Sophia and her wisdom — she was good and (very) evil all at the same time. Fact is that for better or for worse, my life would not have been the same if that situation had not happened.

    In the end, there can be only one it all boils down to assuming responsibility and owing up to one's actions. And judging by the daily news, humans aren't very good at that. So perhaps the metaphor of the Satan/Lucifer would be more applicable to the vast majority than the metaphor of Sophia freeing Adam and Eve from the Demiurge's deception and tyranny, while for a select few, it would be the latter that applies.


    "Shove me in the shallow waters
    Before I get too deep"



    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Quote Originally posted by PurpleLama View Post
    I did fail to elucidate the underlying point of my post.

    The idea I have been chewing on is to wit: The human mind itself is the Devil. So, the Devil tempting Christ was just the normal operation of his human consciousness..This is a follow on or expansion on the "their mind" concept, moving it into a more accessible context for most people.

    The spiritual self being at its core "the observer" of nondualism, the silent serenity of that state of being, the coarseness of normal human consciousness has only ever been the impediment and distraction.
    Do you happen to be familiar with tarot? I'm not an expert on the subject, but often the dreaded card, the Devil mostly refers to carnal desires and such so your thoughts about the human mind makes sense.

    In that card there is the Devil, or the winged being, Baphomet, in the middle between two people. Those people are male and female, perhaps lovers who are chained from their necks. However, if you look closely at the chains you can see that they are loose. So it's almost like self-imposed entaglement or imprisonment which could be relatively easy to escape from if the will is there for it. You can either give into your biological animalistic desires or not. Baphomet is in reality an occult symbol for dualism or balance between opposites. Male and female, good and evil, night and day, hot and cold, being and nonbeing. It is half man and half goat.

    It can be about addictions or about any vices that we have. We certainly all have those and the card shows us how we should shine light on our dark aspects and integrate our dark parts with our normal light side. Jungian psychology in that case refers to integrating our unconscious Shadow with our everyday consciousness. The Shadow is not negative, it just contains all of our hidden parts which we don't want to either acknowledge or at least show to the world for various reasons. Often shame or fear of ridicule can play part in that, most people don't want to be feel alienated, disrespected or ashamed of themselves. Most people want to feel that they belong and often for that reason it feels mostly safe for many to be in groups and then they allow the group or the leader of that group to dictate their beliefs and thoughts.

    That group can be formed in many ways, from family to cults, religions, nationwide political movements and such. It is harder to be your own man or woman and choose to go your own way, dictating the way you live your life and how you think about things. That might cost your social status or you could become an outcast, at least partially, but also you get to stand in your own power. You do not give it away, because the truth is that we all have the power within ourselves to be our own leaders if we just accept the responsibility. The prize for that is our integrity of character and also the fact that we can't be so easily manipulated or controlled.

    Jesus at least metaphorically went to the desert for forty days, Buddha went to meditate under the bodhi tree for 49 days. Both of them were tested by their desires. They are the archetypical image for all humans, the highest ideal.

    Buddha had the same kind of tempations with "mara" or demons, meaning temptations of the human flesh and mind. That is part and parcel with the human experience, but if you wish to go beyond our lower animal nature in terms of the state of your consciousness, then you must transcend your biological desires or limitations which come with the animal body and the ego. This is of course easier said than done for most humans. Yet there is the possibility for every being to attain Christ or Buddhahood. Yeshua often pointed to the heart in all those images, because it points to the sacred heart-space, that is not only about being in the higher state of unconditional Love, but it's also about being in a higher state of consciousness. The heart contains wisdom, the mind or ego only is the intellect. Especially most male minds tend to be more dominated by the logical mind than the intuitive emotional heart, at least if that area of consciousness is blocked with it's energies.

    If you want to talk about certain kind of dark beings, I think that is another topic. In my experience they are very real, but I get what you mean though. Eckhart Tolle also refers to the ego as it's own entity and often he talks about the pain body of the individual or the collective pain body which reacts to certain things or things which trigger it emotionally. I wonder if it would in any way relate to the emotional body though.
    Last edited by Wind, 4th September 2022 at 20:03.

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    Senior Member Lord Sidious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by PurpleLama View Post
    As for my use of the term devil, substitute Satan (the accuser- the part of the mind which accuses- which also DOUBTS and disbelieves the truth) and Lucifer (lightbringer- bringer of wisdom or enlightenment- be careful what you wish for) as you will, whichever word you use and thereby whichever etymology applies, such will yeild only more information and applicability, richness if you will, of the concept.
    Satan is from HaSatan in Hebrew which means the adversary.
    Also the title of Enki
    Ní siocháin go saoirse

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    Quote Originally posted by Lord Sidious View Post
    Satan is from HaSatan in Hebrew which means the adversary.
    Exactly, and it was not a name in the Old Testament but a title. He was mentioned only in the Book of Job, and he did not reside in hell but in heaven. It was also not he who put Job through his torments but Yahweh himself, so as to prove the Satan wrong on his claim that mankind only worshiped Yahweh because Yahweh was good to them.

    Furthermore, according to the Old Testament specifically, angels had no free will because they were not actual beings. Instead, they were mere emanations of Yahweh himself, as avatars through which Yahweh would present a certain aspect of himself unto mankind — e.g. Raphael as the healer, Gabriel as the messenger and Michael as the military leader — and after an angel had fulfilled his purpose as an avatar, he would cease to exist.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Exactly, and it was not a name in the Old Testament but a title. He was mentioned only in the Book of Job, and he did not reside in hell but in heaven. It was also not he who put Job through his torments but Yahweh himself, so as to prove the Satan wrong on his claim that mankind only worshiped Yahweh because Yahweh was good to them.

    Furthermore, according to the Old Testament specifically, angels had no free will because they were not actual beings. Instead, they were mere emanations of Yahweh himself, as avatars through which Yahweh would present a certain aspect of himself unto mankind — e.g. Raphael as the healer, Gabriel as the messenger and Michael as the military leader — and after an angel had fulfilled his purpose as an avatar, he would cease to exist.
    Don't go gettin all technical n shit, the christians will get confused
    Ní siocháin go saoirse

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    Great conversation, guys. No corrections about gnostics or what I think about the mythos under discussion.

    My mind goes to, "Who was the momma of the woman Cain hooked up with in the Land of Nod?"

    Read some answers online. Fantastic minds at work.
    Last edited by modwiz, 5th September 2022 at 07:17.
    "To learn who rules over you simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" -- Voltaire

    "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."-- Eleanor Roosevelt

    "Misery loves company. Wisdom has to look for it." -- Anonymous

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    This made me laugh enough times to post it. Funny animation and witty. Seeing Trump getting handcuffed on the ground, at 6:23 , could be a good starting point for some.

    "To learn who rules over you simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" -- Voltaire

    "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."-- Eleanor Roosevelt

    "Misery loves company. Wisdom has to look for it." -- Anonymous

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    Very enjoyable, laughter is great medicine indeed.

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    Quote Originally posted by modwiz View Post
    Great conversation, guys. No corrections about gnostics or what I think about the mythos under discussion.

    My mind goes to, "Who was the momma of the woman Cain hooked up with in the Land of Nod?"

    Read some answers online. Fantastic minds at work.
    If you read genesis, it doesn't say that adam and ever were the first humans.
    It specifies there was a man and woman created together, days before adam alone................
    Ní siocháin go saoirse

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    Quote Originally posted by Lord Sidious View Post
    If you read genesis, it doesn't say that adam and ever were the first humans.
    It specifies there was a man and woman created together, days before adam alone................
    Start from 1:27
    http://knarf.english.upenn.edu/EtAlia/genes1-3.html
    Ní siocháin go saoirse

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    Ok so he created us both, but then on 2.7 he formed us again from the dust of the ground, as it seemingly hadn't rained yet. And he ensouled man with his breath.
    So we were created twice? Once in his image as hermaphrodites and then from the dust.... Before he broke one of our ribs and formed people with vagina's.

    Anyhoe..
    Have a great day today

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    Quote Originally posted by Catsquotl View Post
    Ok so he created us both, but then on 2.7 he formed us again from the dust of the ground, as it seemingly hadn't rained yet. And he ensouled man with his breath.
    So we were created twice? Once in his image as hermaphrodites and then from the dust.... Before he broke one of our ribs and formed people with vagina's.
    But it doesn't end there yet — you have to continue reading — because after all of that, Yabbadabbadoobl created Americans, and then they in turn went on to eat almost all of the spare ribs, and so now some of the vaginas have to be created by surgeons.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Which came first, man or the egg?

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    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    Which came first, man or the egg?
    I think Keith Richards may have already existed before either of those were created.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    I think Keith Richards may have already existed before either of those were created.

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