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Thread: The so called "Free Press" (MSM) finally busted - and they can't wiggle off the hook now

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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    I'm highlighting a specific word here...



    It is most definitely not socialist, Sam. The form of government where corporations rule and where politicians are only puppets for those corporations, is called fascism, not socialism.

    Acronymians tend to associate the word "fascism" with Nazi-Germany, but Nazism was Hitler's own form of fascism — and national-socialism has nothing to do with socialism, for that matter. However, the USA — which is the driving force behind globalism — has for a long time already been a fascist nation in every sense of the word, albeit that some aspects of its fascist nature are somewhat shrouded. The following is a short list of elements typically found in fascism:

    • Corporatism. In an overtly fascist regime, there is only one political party, but in the USA, there are two official parties — anything else is called "independent" and doesn't count. Certain states don't even allow an independent candidate to run for office. And there's a reason as to why those people are called "independent", i.e. they do not belong to either of the two parties which are under full corporate control, and which are themselves legal corporations as well.

    • Militarism. The USA is an over-militarized nation. Being a member of the military grants one a higher social status among the population, and especially so if one happens to be a member of the US Marine Corps, which is considered an elite division of the US military. The US Marine Corps was specifically created so as to operate outside of the US borders, by the way, so it's technically not even a defense contingent. The higher social status of US military personnel is also merely a propaganda element, because once those troops come back home from having fought a war — and the USA is perpetually at war, either under its own title or under the cloak of NATO — they are coldly abandoned by their government.

    • Propaganda. The US education system is specifically geared toward indoctrination with propaganda, and given how the USA is entirely controlled by the corporations and devoted to capitalism, the Acronymian population is constantly being flooded with commercials, which are a form of propaganda as well. Furthermore, the US education system is so poor that the average Acronymian has virtually no knowledge of what is (really) going on outside of the USA.

    • Elitism and nationalism. American Exceptionalism is a very real phenomenon, and Barack Obama has himself openly stated on camera — during his speech at the West Point academy in 2015 — that he is a strong believer in American Exceptionalism, i.e. the belief that the USA is superior to any other nation in the world.

    • Emphasis on citizenship and patriotism, as motivational factors for participating in either the corporate world or in the military.

    • Appearances are more important than facts. The make-believe becomes the people's reality. Look at all the TV presenters with their fake hair, whitened teeth or fake boobs, or the amount of attention spent on celebrities in the media. The same tenet extends into the area of presidential elections. It's more about charisma and/or a candidate's affinity with a specific population group than about the candidate's political intentions.

    • Dictatorship. Even though the position of President of the USA is electable, the President will of course always be the serf of the corporations — that's what the bipartisan system was created for — and he (or she) has the power of executive to overrule the US Congress, as well as the power to suspend the US Constitution by declaring a nationwide martial law.

    • Surveillance culture. The NSA is operating outside of the law, and is even intercepting all kinds of IT-related equipment as it ships from the factory, in order to then have it modified and have backdoors installed at a third-party company, after which it is packaged up again professionally and transported to the retailers as it normally would have been.



    All of the above are the properties of fascism, Sam. And through the imperialism of American Exceptionalism and the military hegemony, that fascism is what drives the trend toward globalism.
    Words are tricky, no?

    - "Stalin will never make socialism; rather Mussolini will." - Benito Mussolini speech

    - "Genetically, Fascism issued from the 'Bolshevik' wing of Italian socialism, not from any conservative ideology or movement." - Richard Pipes Russia Under The Bolshevik Regime, New York: NY, Vintage Books (1995)

    - Some still ask of us: what do you want? We answer with three words that summon up our entire program. Here they are…Italy, Republic, Socialization. . .Socialization is no other than the implantation of Italian Socialism… - Benito Mussolini speech

    - Do not believe, even for a moment, that by stripping me of my membership card you do the same to my Socialist beliefs, nor that you would restrain me of continuing to work in favor of Socialism and of the Revolution.” - Benito Mussolini

    - [Marx was] the magnificent philosopher of working class violence. - Benito Mussolini

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    Quote Originally posted by heyokah View Post
    It seems that for many the difference between fascism and socialism is very hard to comprehend.
    Perhaps this will help.

    This guy is not giving you any more of an historically accurate description of socialism, capitalism or fascism that the previous writer. I don't understand socialism, like we are all going to suddenly become bees.

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    Quote Originally posted by heyokah View Post
    It seems that for many the difference between fascism and socialism is very hard to comprehend.
    Perhaps this will help.
    This guy is not giving you any more of an historically accurate description of socialism, capitalism or fascism than the previous writer. I don't understand socialism, like we are all going to suddenly become bees.

    I also don't get why Europeans think that "Socialism" is a dirty word in the US. We are taught to praise Socialism. Every time it fails, "oh, that wasn't Socialism"

    The opposite is true on what we are taught about Capitalism. The one time Capitalism doesn't protect the consumer, "Oh well, that's Capitalism"

    - 2009 - Look at Brazil and how well it is doing, Brazil will lead the next great economic block, that's how you do Socialism!
    - 2016 - No No, Brazil is not Socialism.
    Last edited by aKnightThatSaysNi, 31st July 2016 at 15:54.

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    I am glad to see the thread move into highlighting the larger underlying issues - for me - the biggest one of all is "corruption."

    And so why are the ones we end up with in power are almost always if not always corrupt?

    Why (as the OP hoped to demonstrate) is the media corrupt?

    Note that no matter what governmental system is in place, if the leaders are "elected" then this is supposed to be a democracy. Besides all the other reasons democracy doesn't seem "to work" it can never work with a dominating corrupt media. Ever.

    What's interesting is to see how quickly the whole thing has become insane over the last several years. And its my opinion what has accelerated this result has been - the internet. I have no doubt there would never have been a Brexit if we did not have the internet. I have no doubt one of the mainstream candidates (Jeb Bush the most likely) would have been the alternative opposing Hillary if we did not have the internet.

    How long will the reasonably free internet (at least in the US) remain so? Will it become "controlled" the way much of the "alternative community media" has become controlled in relation to the umbrella subject I call "other-worldly" matters?

    Why are they able to control this area of the alternative media so easily? One very good reason is because you cannot disprove that which cannot be proven. All you can do is measure the believability of the information, the integrity of the information source and the integrity of the presenters of these sources.

    Yet with situations such as Hillary finds herself in, where she is "so provably guilty" of so many outrageous actions, she is still protected perhaps well enough that this country will actually allow her to be their president and this can only happen with a complicit, corrupt media.
    Last edited by Chester, 31st July 2016 at 16:43.
    All the above is all and only my opinion. It may contain some sharing of components of my current operating strategy and some foundational components of my current world view - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

    It's just a ride

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGD...vgBsCHmlC13jOg

    https://www.facebook.com/samhunter57

    http://merlynagain.blogspot.com/

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    Senior Member United States Chester's Avatar
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    Why do you not see this 16 second clip shown on all the liberal media channels?


    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYWGVSZw8LA


    and don't think that I am suggesting the conservative media outlets (though a small minority within the overall mainstream media) are any better.
    Last edited by Chester, 2nd August 2016 at 21:27.
    All the above is all and only my opinion. It may contain some sharing of components of my current operating strategy and some foundational components of my current world view - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

    It's just a ride

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGD...vgBsCHmlC13jOg

    https://www.facebook.com/samhunter57

    http://merlynagain.blogspot.com/

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    Quote Originally posted by aKnightThatSaysNi View Post
    Words are tricky, no?

    - "Stalin will never make socialism; rather Mussolini will." - Benito Mussolini speech
    Yeah, coming out of the man's own mouth, that is definitely a credible argument... not!

    Quote Originally posted by aKnightThatSaysNi View Post
    - "Genetically, Fascism issued from the 'Bolshevik' wing of Italian socialism, not from any conservative ideology or movement." - Richard Pipes Russia Under The Bolshevik Regime, New York: NY, Vintage Books (1995)
    In theory, fascism could have left-wing traits and could as such include elements of socialism. Under Mussolini, Italy did not have a monarchy or a nobility-based social class system anymore, and it was not racist — or at least, not until Hitler took charge and degraded Mussolini to a mere puppet. So in that regard, Mussolini was rather progressive for his time. Nevertheless, Mussolini's fascism did incorporate a caste system in the sense that there were the "true citizens" — i.e. the Fascist Party members and the military — and those who were "not true citizens".

    Furthermore, in true socialism, there would be no nationalism or militarism, while fascist Italy was definitely highly militarist and nationalist. Just like in the USA, members of the military were regarded as true citizens and patriots. True socialism on the other hand is internationalist in nature — but it's internationalism without imperialism — and as such, it nullifies the very meaning of the word "patriotism".

    Quote Originally posted by aKnightThatSaysNi View Post
    - Some still ask of us: what do you want? We answer with three words that summon up our entire program. Here they are…Italy, Republic, Socialization. . .Socialization is no other than the implantation of Italian Socialism… - Benito Mussolini speech

    - Do not believe, even for a moment, that by stripping me of my membership card you do the same to my Socialist beliefs, nor that you would restrain me of continuing to work in favor of Socialism and of the Revolution.” - Benito Mussolini

    - [Marx was] the magnificent philosopher of working class violence. - Benito Mussolini
    Mussolini was a demagogue, just as Hitler was, and just as virtually all modern-day politicians are — and especially so in the USA. Therefore, hiding behind the man's own words to try and convey the message that he may have been a socialist is not just ridiculous, but also dishonest, and it's an insult to the intelligence of the members of this forum to boot.





    The boldface emphasis in the following passage is mine.

    Quote Originally posted by aKnightThatSaysNi View Post
    This guy is not giving you any more of an historically accurate description of socialism, capitalism or fascism than the previous writer.
    Myself being "the previous writer", and seeing how you quote Mussolini's own demagogic words as a means by which to justify your innuendo that Mussolini would have been a socialist, I'd say that both my thesis and the lecture by Richard D. Wolff in those two videos would be far closer to the mark than your own (and unsubstantiated) argumentation so far.

    Quote Originally posted by aKnightThatSaysNi View Post
    I also don't get why Europeans think that "Socialism" is a dirty word in the US.
    If it weren't a dirty word in mainstream Acronymia, then Acronymians would not be using it as an expletive — which they do, and I've been on the receiving end of that kind of hostility from US Acronymians more often than I can remember — and then they would at the very least be open to learning what socialism really is, and what it is not.

    Furthermore, the reason why it has become a dirty word is because of the indoctrination with American Exceptionalist and anti-communist propaganda during the Cold War. Remember a certain US Republican senator by the name of Joseph McCarthy and his witch hunt against so-called communists?
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Quote Originally posted by Sam Hunter View Post
    And so why are the ones we end up with in power are almost always if not always corrupt?
    For two reasons, Sam...:

    • The existence of artificial scarcity. So long as artificial scarcity exists, there is temptation, and sometimes that temptation can be either very strong in and of itself within a given individual, or it can be artificially augmented by manipulators.

    • It is usually those who already are (ethically) corrupt who want to rise to power. A psychopath wants to control and manipulate other people, so when offered the opportunity to do so, a psychopath will seize it.


    "The proper study of Man is anything but Man; and the most
    improper job of any man, even saints (who at any rate were at least
    unwilling to take it on), is bossing other men. Not one in a million is
    fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity."


    (J.R.R. Tolkien)


    Quote Originally posted by Sam Hunter View Post
    Why (as the OP hoped to demonstrate) is the media corrupt?

    Note that no matter what governmental system is in place, if the leaders are "elected" then this is supposed to be a democracy. Besides all the other reasons democracy doesn't seem "to work" it can never work with a dominating corrupt media. Ever.
    In the USA, virtually all the news media are in the hands of only six major corporations, Sam, and those six corporations are among the collective of corporations who control both the US Democrat Party and the US Republican Party.

    Quote Originally posted by Sam Hunter View Post
    How long will the reasonably free internet (at least in the US) remain so? Will it become "controlled" the way much of the "alternative community media" has become controlled in relation to the umbrella subject I call "other-worldly" matters?
    It already is being controlled. On the one hand you've got shills — and they're not just working for the government(s), but also for other pressure groups — infiltrating all kinds of on-line communities, and on the other hand there are certain countries which actively censor certain (otherwise harmless) content on the internet.

    In addition to that, there is also still such a thing as the Dark Web, which is where a lot of manipulation is going on. The Dark Web — which is accessible through the TOR network — is not just used by paedophiles, arms dealers and terrorists, but also by the alphabet soup agency spooks and The Powers That Be™ themselves.

    Quote Originally posted by Sam Hunter View Post
    Yet with situations such as Hillary finds herself in, where she is "so provably guilty" of so many outrageous actions, she is still protected perhaps well enough that this country will actually allow her to be their president and this can only happen with a complicit, corrupt media.
    Hillary is being protected because her fall would also cause the fall of many others, and it would also usher in the downfall of any faith whatsoever that the US Acronymian population still has in its own country. It would break through the construct of smoke and mirrors and would expose the USA's dirty laundry — specifically, all of the dirty affairs from all over the world which the US government and its alphabet soup agencies have their hands in.

    It would completely ruin the USA's reputation at the international level, and with the USA weakened by internal struggles, it could potentially start receiving open declarations of war from certain nations ruled by certifiable madmen, e.g. North Korea. When the biggest predator in the wilderness starts dying, the smaller predators might start seeing it as a prey.

    In other words, "they" can't afford to let that happen, and so they are protecting Hillary "for the greater good" — or that is to say, what the FBI and their ilk consider "the greater good".
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Furthermore, the reason why it has become a dirty word is because of the indoctrination with American Exceptionalist and anti-communist propaganda during the Cold War. Remember a certain US Republican senator by the name of Joseph McCarthy and his witch hunt against so-called communists?
    McCarthyism is talked about one of the countries great evils so you are wrong in stating that it is how American's are taught about Socialism. We are taught about all the wonders of Marx and how the Soviets did it wrong. We were not taught about any of the great writers that debunked Marx. So maybe McCarthy would be true for Americans over 50 but for the rest of us, that is definitely not the case.

    Socialism fails because it is flawed and morally just wrong. I don't know how many more examples we need of it failing.

    As for Professor Wolf, I have heard him contradict himself and this speech in many interviews. He has a very old understanding of world and it only comes through one lens.
    Last edited by aKnightThatSaysNi, 31st July 2016 at 20:04.

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    Quote Originally posted by aKnightThatSaysNi View Post
    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Furthermore, the reason why it has become a dirty word is because of the indoctrination with American Exceptionalist and anti-communist propaganda during the Cold War. Remember a certain US Republican senator by the name of Joseph McCarthy and his witch hunt against so-called communists?
    McCarthyism is talked about one of the countries great evils so you are wrong in stating that it is how American's are taught about Socialism.
    Maybe that is the case today, but then that is still very new. I happen to know a lot of Americans who are over 35 years old and who still think of socialism as evil and of capitalism as the road to heaven.

    Quote Originally posted by aKnightThatSaysNi View Post
    Socialism fails because it is flawed and morally just wrong. I don't know how many more examples we need of it failing.
    Please explain to me how equality and fairness would be "morally wrong", and how having to work — and for that matter, work very hard — in order to have access to the resources which the planet provides to every living thing for free, would be "fair" and "morally correct".

    Quote Originally posted by aKnightThatSaysNi View Post
    As for Professor Wolf, I have heard him contradict himself and this speech in many interviews.
    Citations, please?
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Maybe that is the case today, but then that is still very new. I happen to know a lot of Americans who are over 35 years old and who still think of socialism as evil and of capitalism as the road to heaven.



    Please explain to me how equality and fairness would be "morally wrong", and how having to work — and for that matter, work very hard — in order to have access to the resources which the planet provides to every living thing for free, would be "fair" and "morally correct".



    Citations, please?
    Americans under 35 are probably confused on Socialism, except for the Bernie fans, they just want their education paid for and they probably did get a raw deal. I guess Americans don't know what Socialism is, maybe I don't know what it Socialism is. A few years ago, our favorite grayed haired Socialist was praising Venezuela and Brazil, now its not Socialism. **** I want a shrubbery.

    I was taught that Socialism is the road to heaven in school, not so much at home. NOW, I have educated myself to believe that Capitalism could be the road to heaven, though that requires better humans; and I don't see any chance of the United States having Capitalism anytime soon. Most Americans have no clue what Capitalism is and mistake Corporatism which is just Fascism as Capitalism. Even if you look at the famed "Robber Barons", there were both Capitalists and Corporatists at work even then, but we are only taught about the Corporatists and they are all called Capitalists. Our Government is very careful to mislabel Capitalism, probably because it could lead to the road to heaven.

    Socialism is not equality and fairness to me. Its not fair to pay a janitor the same as a teacher. We are not bees.

    I find him contradicting himself in this interview or maybe he was just learning something and I am not a fan of this interviewer.

    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFgqYz21wZk
    Last edited by aKnightThatSaysNi, 31st July 2016 at 20:39.

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    Quote Originally posted by aKnightThatSaysNi View Post
    I was taught that Socialism is the road to heaven in school, not so much at home.
    Then you must have attended an extremely progressive school — which doesn't necessarily guarantee that they would be correct and factual — but then that certainly does not apply to the vast majority of your contemporaries.

    Quote Originally posted by aKnightThatSaysNi View Post
    NOW, I have educated myself to believe that Capitalism could be the road to heaven, though that requires better humans, [...
    Do you have any idea what that sounds like? "Better humans", so they can serve capitalism? Putting the economy and the state before the people is one of the hallmarks of fascism. And it most certainly doesn't work. We see that over here in Europe every day.

    Quote Originally posted by aKnightThatSaysNi View Post
    ...] but I don't see any chance of the United States having Capitalism anytime soon. Most Americans have no clue what Capitalism is and mistake Corporatism which is just Fascism as Capitalism.
    Capitalism inevitably leads to corporatism. There is no way around that, except by strict regulation, and what you then get is a weak form of state capitalism.

    Quote Originally posted by aKnightThatSaysNi View Post
    Even if you look at the famed "Robber Barons", there were both Capitalists and Corporatists at work even then, but we are only taught about the Corporatists and they are all called Capitalists. Our Government is very careful to mislabel Capitalism, probably because it could lead to the road to heaven.
    It doesn't, it can't, and it won't. The history books are filled with evidence on account of that.

    Quote Originally posted by aKnightThatSaysNi View Post
    Socialism is not equality and fairness to me. Its not fair to pay a janitor the same as a teacher. We are not bees.
    The system of artificial scarcity is in itself unfair, unnatural and unethical, and it keeps humans trapped in this artificial construct which neither works nor makes true on its promises. It's self-deceit.

    Allow me to repeat the following wise words from an equally wise man...


    "You cannot solve a problem with the same level of thinking as what created it in the first place."

    (Albert Einstein)


    Quote Originally posted by aKnightThatSaysNi View Post
    I find him contradicting himself in this interview or maybe he was just learning something and I am not a fan of this interviewer.

    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFgqYz21wZk
    We all have to learn and we all have to refine our opinions — we even have to refine the way we express those opinions, because words can so easily be misinterpreted. And for that matter, I'm not a fan of that interviewer either.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Instead of a quid pro quo system with rigid rules, we should aim for a system with voluntary commitment and more flexible use of human resources.
    Before people are going to want to volunteer for hard labor for the sake of their government, they are going to have to have a pretty selfless devotion towards it. Like, the kind of devotion normally only reserved for making sacrifices for close family members (taking on three jobs to support kids) and this sort of thing. Not the kind of "selfless devotion" people are likely to feel for governments led by people like Bush or Obama or Blair or Cameron or Hollande, etc. In the history of Marxism and talking about equal distribution of labor and all of this stuff, any government that's actually tried to enact this kind of policy has ended up either destroying its labor or having to compel people to work with some sort of pressure.

    Appealing to peoples' greed, or at least their ambition to make more money and increase the standard of living for their loved ones, is an approach that convinces people to do hard labor willingly. Instead of effectively cutting pay for harder jobs by making wages equal for everyone, we might be better to first reduce the hardship of these kinds of work through better technology and more automation. Replacing tough jobs with robots (which is what assembly lines have been doing for 100+ years) isn't a bad thing as long as you can find new work for the displaced employees, and in a healthy economy this shouldn't be a problem. If we could more or less equalize the difficulty in different lines of work, that might create a better situation to work from.

    As for what it means, see above, i.e. the holographic society model. As for how well it works for me, well, it doesn't, because I don't live in that kind of society. I live in a capitalist society, ruled by an immense bureaucratic apparatus, and then there's an even bigger bureaucratic apparatus on top of that, i.e. the European Union.
    All of that bureaucracy is really unnecessary and probably one of the biggest problems.

    But then you would still have to be dealing with barter — and thus by definition with artificial scarcity — as well as with a regulating bureaucracy. Both of those are outdated concepts and should be discarded with prejudice when working toward a utopian society model.
    I don't think so, but I think we are approaching the problem from two different levels. I think the closest thing to a Utopian government is going to be built from the people up, from popular movements sooner than it will be handed down as if from above, from elected officials who are most often the most corrupted and morally irresponsible people in our societies. The more freedom we have the more responsibility we have, so the cost of true freedom is to be self-reliant in some way and not dependent upon the state to provide for us.

    The system you seem eager to preserve — at least, that is my impression — has had its chances and has time after time proven that it doesn't work. State capitalism — i.e. pseudo-socialism or pseudo-communism — doesn't work either. It is time for something different, and above all, something better.
    I'm not sure what you mean by "doesn't work." We've had governments and systems of finance in the US before that worked just fine. I know that under Marxist theory, the proletariats and bourgeois are always bound to revolt against ruling classes and all that, but I don't think that is necessarily the case.

    If you look at the years prior to, and even during, the First and Second World Wars, the US was a major manufacturing and trade power supplying the whole world with goods and materials similar to the role China is playing with that now. We built up, without coercion (except relatively few prisoners of war during WW2), immense industrial production like the world had never seen before. Cars became affordable for everyday people and revolutionized transportation, radios and televisions became commonplace, etc., bringing us out of a depression (which was created artificially) and increasing the standard of living for most Americans dramatically. That's not to say that everything was perfect for anyone back then, but all in all there was a lot of positive change and I think without corrupting influences there is no reason why the momentum couldn't have been maintained until today.

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    I am not sure any of these antiquated terms accurately describe the current state of affairs as they exist in 2016.

    Fascism is a union between corporations and government but the way it was understood in the 1930s is that the government played the dominant role in society. Nazi Germany was a command economy not a market economy. The Government gave the dictates and it was carried out by the private sector. Der Fuhrer was nobody's puppet.


    America in 2016 is really the complete reverse of fascism. It is the corporation that tells the government what to do. Regulatory capture is major part of the modern control structure. The wealthy in this country quickly scrambled up the economic ladder and then set the rungs behind them on fire. The corporations and the wealthy have become so powerful that they actually control the government and use government regulation to prevent upstarts and competitors from challenging their power. This is called Regulatory capture. Corporations who own and control the government use business regulations to keep the little guy down and consolidate their own power. America is in fact a corporate oligarchy that has more in common with Feudalism than it does with fascism.


    Understand Orwellian doublespeak that the master propagandist manipulates the language so the population does not even have proper words to describe their enslavement.
    In the novel 1984 the controlling government brainwashed the population with doublespeak by telling them.
    War is peace;
    Freedom is slavery;
    Ignorance is strength.
    The government's military was called the ministry of "peace."
    People were tortured by the government's ministry of "Love."
    Propaganda are was called the ministry of "truth."

    Everything was the opposite what the language said it was doing. This confuses the population and makes them easier to control. Who could be against torture when you had to go against the ministry of "love?" The government would brand you hateful and then have you either killed or reeducated while the population would cheer on the farce.

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    Quote Originally posted by bsbray View Post
    Before people are going to want to volunteer for hard labor for the sake of their government, they are going to have to have a pretty selfless devotion towards it.
    Ah, but it's not for the government, amigo. There would be no government in a utopian society. Governments are only good at one thing, which is making everything bad for everyone other than themselves.

    Quote Originally posted by bsbray View Post
    Appealing to peoples' greed, or at least their ambition to make more money and increase the standard of living for their loved ones, is an approach that convinces people to do hard labor willingly.
    Yes, but with a poorer level of quality. A job done from the heart is a job well done. A job done because of the quid pro quo rule is always going to be a job done sloppily.

    Quote Originally posted by bsbray View Post
    Instead of effectively cutting pay for harder jobs by making wages equal for everyone, we might be better to first reduce the hardship of these kinds of work through better technology and more automation.
    Agreed 100%. Why not put our technological skills to use at creating the machines that could do useful, hard and dangerous work for us, rather than have humans do it? But no, we rather put them to use for stimulating people's laziness — self-driving cars anyone? — and for killing so-called enemies in foreign nations without getting our own pilots killed.

    Quote Originally posted by bsbray View Post
    All of that bureaucracy is really unnecessary and probably one of the biggest problems.
    Agreed. By the way, did you know that it costs the European citizens 1'000'000 Euro every month just to move the EU bureaucracy over from Brussels to Frankfurt and back?

    And it's already better now, because they used to convene four times per month. First in Brussels, then in Frankfurt, then back to Brussels and then back to Frankfurt. So now they convene only twice per month anymore; once in Brussels and once in Frankfurt. And Euro-parliamentarians and Euro-executives only need to declare half of their very royal salaries with the tax departments. (The same applies to Belgian parliamentarians and cabinet ministers, by the way.)

    Austerity, anyone?

    Quote Originally posted by bsbray View Post
    I don't think so, but I think we are approaching the problem from two different levels. I think the closest thing to a Utopian government is going to be built from the people up, from popular movements sooner than it will be handed down as if from above, from elected officials who are most often the most corrupted and morally irresponsible people in our societies. The more freedom we have the more responsibility we have, so the cost of true freedom is to be self-reliant in some way and not dependent upon the state to provide for us.
    I was definitely not suggesting that such a change should come from the top down. If there's anything we can all agree on, then it's that matters of enlightenment should best not be left into the hands of power structures, and least of all bureaucrats.

    Look, I don't have any concrete solution on how to get to a utopian society. As I wrote higher up this thread already, it is going to require a fundamental change in the way people think — and by "people", I do mean the population, not the governments or the corporations or whatever. It will have to come from within the grassroots, but it'll have to have a lot more momentum and be a lot more incisive than the Occupy Wall Street movement.

    The Occupy movement was a step in the right direction, but was still too limited in scope, as it was a protest movement, not a revolutionary movement. You cannot have a revolution without having a clear-cut plan and a vision on where to take it from there. And that's exactly where all would-be socialist revolutions have always failed. They started their revolutions out of dissent with the situation as it existed, and then after ousting the abusive establishment, they got stuck with their hands in their hair, not knowing where to go next, because they hadn't thought about that yet.

    Quote Originally posted by bsbray View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by "doesn't work." We've had governments and systems of finance in the US before that worked just fine.
    No, it doesn't, because it does not create an egalitarian society. So long as there is someone who falls off the boat due to whatever reason — e.g. disabled people — the system will have failed to create a utopian society.

    Quote Originally posted by bsbray View Post
    If you look at the years prior to, and even during, the First and Second World Wars, the US was a major manufacturing and trade power supplying the whole world with goods and materials similar to the role China is playing with that now. We built up, without coercion (except relatively few prisoners of war during WW2), immense industrial production like the world had never seen before. Cars became affordable for everyday people and revolutionized transportation, radios and televisions became commonplace, etc., bringing us out of a depression (which was created artificially) and increasing the standard of living for most Americans dramatically. That's not to say that everything was perfect for anyone back then, but all in all there was a lot of positive change and I think without corrupting influences there is no reason why the momentum couldn't have been maintained until today.
    But the corrupting influences are always going to be there, simply because of the principle of artificial scarcity upon which the whole capitalist system is built. We really need to overcome our reliance upon artificial scarcity, because it's the root of all evil. It's unethical, period.

    Mind you, I don't have all the answers either. All I have are my considerations, and I throw them out there. As far as I'm concerned, the human species is still too fundamentally flawed to come anywhere near a workable plan that would create equality and prosperity for all. But what I do know for certain, is that capitalism is not the way to get there.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    "Not that I condone fascism,
    or any ism for that matter.
    Isms in my opinion are not good.
    A person shouldn't believe in an ism.
    He should believe in himself."

    Ferris Beuller

    Great discussion guys.

    , it shouldn't matter that people are 'being taught' that socialism is wonderful. Can they think for themselves?

    Plenty of my peers coming out of public education in a very liberal era went republican. The problem, in my opinion, is they stopped thinking and became followers. We ended up with thinkers on the right who didn't toe the line becoming RINOs and Gingrich spearheading the practice of, "Don't talk to the media. Don't debate liberals." Limbaugh took that stuff and ran with it.

    Ann Coulter wrote a book called, "How to Talk to a Liberal, if you Have to." It's not her brilliance that came up with that title, it was what conservatives were all about. Colbert didn't come up with phrases like, "Don't confuse me with the facts. I'm not a big fan of the facts" all by his brilliant self. He satirized what was already well established."

    Dems and Repubs are two sides of the same coin, sewed together at the ass. There's a reason you can't tell which one the crap's coming from because it's coming from both.

    You can never toss one side of a coin.

    Who's willing to try to actually reform our FEC and elections?

    I see more who think it'll somehow be easy to have a revolution. Like Iraq was going to be a cakewalk.

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