Military Coup in Turkey

[modwiz]

The key word there is "secret." If it were culturally acceptable it wouldn't have to be a secret, would it?

I am only talking about aspects of modern Islamic culture, ie the culture of the people pouring into Europe, not what intelligence agencies do. And I'm comparing this to modern European culture, not to medieval European culture, though medieval Europe also had an Islamic "immigration" problem of its own that it dealt with very brutally.



You have to go back a little more than 200 years to find the stuff you're posting, but medieval European practices like this would also not be culturally acceptable in modern Europe. Do you see my point? We are only dealing with modern European and modern Islamic cultures, existing simultaneously in the present, not invasions into past cultures.



I actually never said anything about either culture being "better." That's not my point. You might remember from our previous discussion how I dislike words like "good" and "bad" when evaluating things.

My point is not to moralize about who are good or bad people, but that modern European and Islamic cultures are incompatible because of the violent practices like shown above, which still happen in the Middle East today, not just 500 years ago.



In other words you believe that most Europeans are actually okay with the abuse of women, throwing acid in peoples' faces and cutting hands and legs off as forms of legal punishment, or stoning people to death. You think this will go over just fine in Europe, as long as the native Europeans themselves remain in charge of it. That's your point?

I was saddened to see Wahhabi practices conflated with Islam in your post. I will post a link to an article to help those still misinformed by the media about Islam. Such an act would get one imprisoned In Iran, Syria or Egypt under Sisi. Wahabbism has flourished under the despotic regimes the West has allowed in too many Islamic countries. The despots are corrupt and dedicate no money towards education. Wahhabist Madrasas offer their form of education and often meals as well.

As you will read, Britain is the primary creator of this medieval apostate form of Islam. Please read the entire article and not just the blurbs I put here.

The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has managed to nose itself into a unique global position. Despite the persistent reports of human rights abuses from within the kingdom, it continues to stand as an ally and ‘friend’ to both the UK and the US. Public beheadings in Chop Chop Square are commonplace, which along with stoniang, flogging and cross amputation (usually one hand and one foot on the opposite side), make up some of the state punishments for such appalling crimes as witchcraft and sorcery.

The Origins of Wahhabism

In the 1740s, the geographical area now known as Saudi Arabia was more or less a plateau for warring Bedouin tribes. Ibn Saud, ancestor of the modern Saudi family, was just one of many desert leaders, raiding other tribes and vying for supremacy. But an encounter with exiled cleric Adl al-Wahhab (right), forged a partnership that would alter the fate of the whole Middle East.

Adl al-Wahhab was just another in a very long line of religious fanatics, but Ibn Saud saw something more in his extreme preaching. He realised al-Wahhab could lend him an edge over his tribal enemies and potentially offer him the opportunity to seize the peninsula.

Wahhab saw Islam’s religious development from around 950-1000 AD as a false path that needed to be reversed and its doctrines abolished. His interpretation warned that anyone resisting his teachings, or who failed to follow them precisely, would be seen as ‘non-Muslim’. This logic formed a simple choice for people: abide by Wahhabism or be slaughtered as a heretic.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/saudi-a...lated_articles

[lcam88]

The key word there is "secret." If it were culturally acceptable it wouldn't have to be a secret, would it?

I think I'm a bit more extremist about my interpretations than you. Corporations regularly maintain secrets for whatever they think is a competitive advantage, culturally acceptable or not. How can you be so sure CIA secret is not more related to competitive advantage rather than cultural acceptability? Do you think the CIA cares about what is culturally acceptable at all when they decide what their secrets are?

Furthermore, your view is more inline with what Aragorn was saying, that we need to be observing the values of individuals...

European society doesn't use direct democracy, they largely have representative democracies. Why is it inappropriate to suppose governments' values actually represents the populations' values? Don't citizenries support their government overall? How then, can a secret prison approved by a European country _not_ also be supported by the nations people? ** (Question referenced below)

I am only talking about aspects of modern Islamic culture, ie the culture of the people pouring into Europe, not what intelligence agencies do. And I'm comparing this to modern European culture, not to medieval European culture, though medieval Europe also had an Islamic "immigration" problem of its own that it dealt with very brutally.

I agree.

I don't think any claim to moral superiority based on traditions hold weight. Europeans have some parts of their history they would rather forget about.

Modern day culture does indicate quite a lot of progress has been made... Until you look at Turkey and they way they have been dealing with "dissidents", people like professors and teachers... They too are European.

Is looking as far back as the 1940's also something you are not looking at?

You have to go back a little more than 200 years to find the stuff you're posting, but medieval European practices like this would also not be culturally acceptable in modern Europe. Do you see my point? We are only dealing with modern European and modern Islamic cultures, existing simultaneously in the present, not invasions into past cultures.

Salem witch trials... approximately 200 years. That is hardly from medieval, and certainly not European, obviously...

And we're talking about European culture only. Not western culture. So be it.

I actually never said anything about either culture being "better." That's not my point. You might remember from our previous discussion how I dislike words like "good" and "bad" when evaluating things.

My point is not to moralize about who are good or bad people, but that modern European and Islamic cultures are incompatible because of the violent practices like shown above, which still happen in the Middle East today, not just 500 years ago.

I agree with you, incompatible cultures. My 2¢ being that fundamental values (of theft) are common (something bad), but that they don't agree on "the pecking order".

In other words you believe that most Europeans are actually okay with the abuse of women, throwing acid in peoples' faces and cutting hands and legs off as forms of legal punishment, or stoning people to death. You think this will go over just fine in Europe, as long as the native Europeans themselves remain in charge of it. That's your point?

I don't believe in any such thing. Much to the contrary, I think most European people have an emotional reaction involving some type of disgust.

That said, I don't think our beliefs should influence the soundness of the points we are making here. Such a thing would obviously degenerate into pro-European statements being made regardless of its history. So really, who cares what I believe whether it be pro-European or not.

My point is that if you consider European tradition, their history, to then make some sort of claim to superiority is an equivalent form of bigotry of muslims who rely on their divine or holy scriptures.

Obviously my bias IS pro-european. Hopefully that isn't perfectly obvious. It is pro-European mainly because of the progress they have made with equality between women and men, something I would remark to be distinctly primitive with the Islamic following.

I opened my remarks here making mention of how crimes are fundamentally about theft. The key concept being theft: the taking of what does not belong from another whether it be someones dignity, livelihood, possessions or even their life. To then just be focused of the aspect of violence cannot be a claim that non-violent types of theft are more socially acceptable.

So perhaps this whole Military Coup in Turkey is about stripping their population of freedom, something that is an act "theft" (the taking of what doesn't belong) regardless of the legalities. Since Turkey is European and it is a Muslim country clearly they don't have the same incompatibility problems the rest of Europe has, even while they may like to ride European coat-tails on the issue.

Throwing acid in a woman's face is an appalling thing to do, justified by religious fanaticism. However, whether or not it is a form of legal punishment depends on what the law happens to say. You and I grew up thinking that the justice the law represents is about the actual merits, about fairness or even about what is right.

So what happens when a law is unjust, when it favors some group of people over the rest. For example, Hillary Clinton.

Can it be that the law is arbitrary? That what we grew up thinking about justice is flawed? What if the law does permit someone to suffer amputation of the hand for the crime of arbitrary theft? Certainly such a law makes it legal for such practices to be performed whether we like it or not; legalities are like religion, they casually accost the values of their followings but nothing says they actually are codifications of social values of the culture, only that they MUST be accepted.

And such things don't have to be as dramatic as islamic law; the EU pushing through the Lisbon Treaty the way it did, for example. Why is that more tolerable? Is European culture falling to the way of John Locke's "wilderness" where civilization is slowly being abandoning because slowly the law no longer properly represents the social values of the society? ** (point made in reference to Government representation issue above)

Perhaps in that context, the entire Islamic Culture issue is the equivalent of a straw-man to distract us of what Europe is doing?

This whole migrant movement could be like 1782 Revolutionary War in North America ReLoaded. A conflict designed to polarize and align the populous into following the "least bad" option offered by "the good guys" who you and I know don't actually exist. An act to deflect them from their normal course of "progress" and into another course that is more of what "the good guys" want.

Can that mean that European cultural growth is really not considered of much value by these "good guys" and the governments?

All of that to say, people in Europe are as Farage said of the UK common folk, the little people, "they are extreeeeemly patient", they bend over backwards with patience. See, that is them respecting the "pecking order". That is them accepting government values which they then must accept as a civil duty.

In that regard, perhaps the Islamic fanatics somehow are better – that the population is much to patient when their values are disregarded. But that is hard because we want comfort in our homes, safety for our children and we still believe democracy is a way for our voices to matter.

Pardon me for the ramblings.

[modwiz]

I think I'm a bit more extremist about my interpretations than you. Corporations regularly maintain secrets for whatever they think is a competitive advantage, culturally acceptable or not. How can you be so sure CIA secret is not more related to competitive advantage rather than cultural acceptability? Do you think the CIA cares about what is culturally acceptable at all when they decide what their secrets are?

Furthermore, your view is more inline with what Aragorn was saying, that we need to be observing the values of individuals...

European society doesn't use direct democracy, they largely have representative democracies. Why is it inappropriate to suppose governments' values actually represents the populations' values? Don't citizenries support their government overall? How then, can a secret prison approved by a European country _not_ also be supported by the nations people? ** (Question referenced below)



I agree.

I don't think any claim to moral superiority based on traditions hold weight. Europeans have some parts of their history they would rather forget about.

Modern day culture does indicate quite a lot of progress has been made... Until you look at Turkey and they way they have been dealing with "dissidents", people like professors and teachers... They too are European.

Is looking as far back as the 1940's also something you are not looking at?



Salem witch trials... approximately 200 years. That is hardly from medieval, and certainly not European, obviously...

And we're talking about European culture only. Not western culture. So be it.



I agree with you, incompatible cultures. My 2¢ being that fundamental values (of theft) are common (something bad), but that they don't agree on "the pecking order".



I don't believe in any such thing. Much to the contrary, I think most European people have an emotional reaction involving some type of disgust.

That said, I don't think our beliefs should influence the soundness of the points we are making here. Such a thing would obviously degenerate into pro-European statements being made regardless of its history. So really, who cares what I believe whether it be pro-European or not.

My point is that if you consider European tradition, their history, to then make some sort of claim to superiority is an equivalent form of bigotry of muslims who rely on their divine or holy scriptures.

Obviously my bias IS pro-european. Hopefully that isn't perfectly obvious. It is pro-European mainly because of the progress they have made with equality between women and men, something I would remark to be distinctly primitive with the Islamic following.

I opened my remarks here making mention of how crimes are fundamentally about theft. The key concept being theft: the taking of what does not belong from another whether it be someones dignity, livelihood, possessions or even their life. To then just be focused of the aspect of violence cannot be a claim that non-violent types of theft are more socially acceptable.

So perhaps this whole Military Coup in Turkey is about stripping their population of freedom, something that is an act "theft" (the taking of what doesn't belong) regardless of the legalities. Since Turkey is European and it is a Muslim country clearly they don't have the same incompatibility problems the rest of Europe has, even while they may like to ride European coat-tails on the issue.

Throwing acid in a woman's face is an appalling thing to do, justified by religious fanaticism. However, whether or not it is a form of legal punishment depends on what the law happens to say. You and I grew up thinking that the justice the law represents is about the actual merits, about fairness or even about what is right.

So what happens when a law is unjust, when it favors some group of people over the rest. For example, Hillary Clinton.

Can it be that the law is arbitrary? That what we grew up thinking about justice is flawed? What if the law does permit someone to suffer amputation of the hand for the crime of arbitrary theft? Certainly such a law makes it legal for such practices to be performed whether we like it or not; legalities are like religion, they casually accost the values of their followings but nothing says they actually are codifications of social values of the culture, only that they MUST be accepted.

And such things don't have to be as dramatic as islamic law; the EU pushing through the Lisbon Treaty the way it did, for example. Why is that more tolerable? Is European culture falling to the way of John Locke's "wilderness" where civilization is slowly being abandoning because slowly the law no longer properly represents the social values of the society? ** (point made in reference to Government representation issue above)

Perhaps in that context, the entire Islamic Culture issue is the equivalent of a straw-man to distract us of what Europe is doing?

This whole migrant movement could be like 1782 Revolutionary War in North America ReLoaded. A conflict designed to polarize and align the populous into following the "least bad" option offered by "the good guys" who you and I know don't actually exist. An act to deflect them from their normal course of "progress" and into another course that is more of what "the good guys" want.

Can that mean that European cultural growth is really not considered of much value by these "good guys" and the governments?

All of that to say, people in Europe are as Farage said of the UK common folk, the little people, "they are extreeeeemly patient", they bend over backwards with patience. See, that is them respecting the "pecking order". That is them accepting government values which they then must accept as a civil duty.

In that regard, perhaps the Islamic fanatics somehow are better – that the population is much to patient when their values are disregarded. But that is hard because we want comfort in our homes, safety for our children and we still believe democracy is a way for our voices to matter.

Pardon me for the ramblings.

How do we ignore the indiscriminate bombing and droning of innocents by 'civilized' Western values and culture. An amputation by bomb or missile for the offense of being in ones home country that has not declared war on another nation is just as bad, IMO. To think we have better values or culture while our military(s) punish innocents is hypocrisy in the extreme. We cannot celebrate our "culture" when it indiscriminately punishes innocents.

[bsbray]

I was saddened to see Wahhabi practices conflated with Islam in your post. I will post a link to an article to help those still misinformed by the media about Islam. Such an act would get one imprisoned In Iran, Syria or Egypt under Sisi. Wahabbism has flourished under the despotic regimes the West has allowed in too many Islamic countries. The despots are corrupt and dedicate no money towards education. Wahhabist Madrasas offer their form of education and often meals as well.

I realize that there is a distinction, modwiz, and not all Muslim countries are under this extreme form of Sharia law. But enough people coming into Europe are part of the extreme form that it does cause problems, like measurable increases in violent crimes that can be linked directly to the immigrants.

I wouldn't say that I'm a fan of the Iranian, Syrian or Egyptian governments, but they do have my respect in that they are much more civilized and secular than Saudi Arabia, parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan and the ISIS guys running around radicalizing people and all the rest.

As you will read, Britain is the primary creator of this medieval apostate form of Islam. Please read the entire article and not just the blurbs I put here.

Yes, I'm aware of this. And Islamic countries were formerly very civilized when Europe was embroiled in violent barbarism. According to the New Chronology, Islam is a more recent introduction to the Middle East than conventionally thought by a few hundred years, and before that a lot of it is depicted as part of Tartaria (though we know very little of Tartaria's culture to be very honest about that).

Still today, the reality of the situation is that Europe is being flooded with extremists on purpose from the Middle East, largely coming out of chaotic war zones like Libya and Syria. Though not all Muslims are religious extremists, Europe is still going to be in serious trouble if they keep allowing this flood of Islamic immigrants. This is not a humanitarian effort but someone's attempt to destroy secular humanist culture in Europe or at least cause serious unrest across Europe. We are still in the early stages of it so if any action is going to be taken it would be better now than later.

---

How do we ignore the indiscriminate bombing and droning of innocents by 'civilized' Western values and culture. An amputation by bomb or missile for the offense of being in ones home country that has not declared war on another nation is just as bad, IMO. To think we have better values or culture while our military(s) punish innocents is hypocrisy in the extreme. We cannot celebrate our "culture" when it indiscriminately punishes innocents.

I think this is a good opportunity to reflect upon the damages caused by political correctness. I'm not saying that you are being politically correct, modwiz, but I think this whole discussion is suffering from its effects.

I am not trying to pronounce some moral judgment upon Muslims all over the world, let alone say that the west's farts smell like roses. I am talking about the practical reality of women in Europe wearing skimpy clothes and getting assaulted and raped by foreign men who are from places where women are covered in veils and have little legal recourse to such violence.

It's strange to me that even though I am stating what I believe is very obvious, narrowly-defined and can certainly be backed up with crime data, I get a reaction as if I'm being discriminatory against the entire 1 billion Muslims on planet Earth and as if making moral judgments upon entire periods of history on top of that. I sense that the reactions I'm getting are at least somewhat emotionally driven, especially when the discussion evolves into a million irrelevant things that I'm not concerned about here. This is the entire problem with the "welcome culture" in Germany which is so eager to show all of these people fresh out of war zones a warm, loving, hugging welcome so as to be super careful not to offend anyone or give anyone the "wrong idea" about what they think, only to have a lot of these Middle Easterners interpret it as weakness and proceed to trample all over the secular humanistic laws for which they have no respect.

[bsbray]

I think I'm a bit more extremist about my interpretations than you. Corporations regularly maintain secrets for whatever they think is a competitive advantage, culturally acceptable or not. How can you be so sure CIA secret is not more related to competitive advantage rather than cultural acceptability? Do you think the CIA cares about what is culturally acceptable at all when they decide what their secrets are?

A good indication is that torture is a controversial subject in major media even in the US, and in Europe it's even less acceptable. In many parts of Europe a "life sentence" is a set amount of time, like 20 years. Popular culture in these kinds of places is not accepting of chopping off peoples hands and throwing acid in women's faces, or killing women for being raped. Really lcamm I think you are aware enough of the situation to realize this. I don't know why you keep taking my points off in unrelated directions, like what happened in the Middle Ages or why the CIA keeps secrets. All you have to do is read a single European news article about "honor killings" to get a sense of how Europeans feel about it. It is not an accepted practice there, to say the least.

European society doesn't use direct democracy, they largely have representative democracies. Why is it inappropriate to suppose governments' values actually represents the populations' values? Don't citizenries support their government overall? How then, can a secret prison approved by a European country _not_ also be supported by the nations people? ** (Question referenced below)

Again lcamm what I actually said is much simpler and narrower than the giant discussion you are trying to broaden this into. I said that secular humanist European culture is not compatible with a culture that thinks it's okay to do things like kill women rape victims because they had sex outside of marriage, or chop peoples' hands off for stealing. And I am obviously talking about modern times, like, what is relevant today. It is a very simple statement and has nothing to do with the Middle Ages or whether or not what the CIA does would theoretically be considered acceptable or what kind of democracy exists in Europe.

Is looking as far back as the 1940's also something you are not looking at?

You mean to tell me that 1940's Europeans were accepting of honor killings, cutting of thieves' hands and sexually assaulting women who wore short skirts?

Salem witch trials... approximately 200 years. That is hardly from medieval, and certainly not European, obviously...

Late 1600's actually (all it takes is a Google search man) and they did not employ any of those implements you posted. Those things were employed by the Inquisition in Europe. Really I have no idea why you are even bringing this stuff up. It has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I am talking about current events.

I agree with you, incompatible cultures. My 2¢ being that fundamental values (of theft) are common (something bad), but that they don't agree on "the pecking order".

Pecking order in English means hierarchy. Thievery is considered a crime in modern Europe but adultery is not and the forms of accepted punishment I'm talking about are not even close. Sexual assaults are also considered a serious crime in modern Europe but not in all of the regions from which Muslim immigrants are coming.

In other words you believe that most Europeans are actually okay with the abuse of women, throwing acid in peoples' faces and cutting hands and legs off as forms of legal punishment, or stoning people to death. You think this will go over just fine in Europe, as long as the native Europeans themselves remain in charge of it. That's your point?

I don't believe in any such thing. Much to the contrary, I think most European people have an emotional reaction involving some type of disgust.

Then we should be in agreement and I have no idea why you are arguing with me and bringing up the Middle Ages and all the rest.

If you think I am moralizing or making judgments about whose culture is "better" then you have read things into my posts that don't exist and are arguing with things that I have never said in the first place. I am talking about the situation that is going on in Europe right now with increased violence from Muslim immigrants.

[modwiz]

I realize that there is a distinction, modwiz, and not all Muslim countries are under this extreme form of Sharia law. But enough people coming into Europe are part of the extreme form that it does cause problems, like measurable increases in violent crimes that can be linked directly to the immigrants.

I wouldn't say that I'm a fan of the Iranian, Syrian or Egyptian governments, but they do have my respect in that they are much more civilized and secular than Saudi Arabia, parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan and the ISIS guys running around radicalizing people and all the rest.



Yes, I'm aware of this. And Islamic countries were formerly very civilized when Europe was embroiled in violent barbarism. According to the New Chronology, Islam is a more recent introduction to the Middle East than conventionally thought by a few hundred years, and before that a lot of it is depicted as part of Tartaria (though we know very little of Tartaria's culture to be very honest about that).

Still today, the reality of the situation is that Europe is being flooded with extremists on purpose from the Middle East, largely coming out of chaotic war zones like Libya and Syria. Though not all Muslims are religious extremists, Europe is still going to be in serious trouble if they keep allowing this flood of Islamic immigrants. This is not a humanitarian effort but someone's attempt to destroy secular humanist culture in Europe or at least cause serious unrest across Europe. We are still in the early stages of it so if any action is going to be taken it would be better now than later.

---

I think this is a good opportunity to reflect upon the damages caused by political correctness. I'm not saying that you are being politically correct, modwiz, but I think this whole discussion is suffering from its effects.

I am not trying to pronounce some moral judgment upon Muslims all over the world, let alone say that the west's farts smell like roses. I am talking about the practical reality of women in Europe wearing skimpy clothes and getting assaulted and raped by foreign men who are from places where women are covered in veils and have little legal recourse to such violence.

It's strange to me that even though I am stating what I believe is very obvious, narrowly-defined and can certainly be backed up with crime data, I get a reaction as if I'm being discriminatory against the entire 1 billion Muslims on planet Earth and as if making moral judgments upon entire periods of history on top of that. I sense that the reactions I'm getting are at least somewhat emotionally driven, especially when the discussion evolves into a million irrelevant things that I'm not concerned about here. This is the entire problem with the "welcome culture" in Germany which is so eager to show all of these people fresh out of war zones a warm, loving, hugging welcome so as to be super careful not to offend anyone or give anyone the "wrong idea" about what they think, only to have a lot of these Middle Easterners interpret it as weakness and proceed to trample all over the secular humanistic laws for which they have no respect.

Cultures mixing, especially en masse is not good. It is like putting parmesan culture in my yogurt.

I have issues with women dressing trampy with the intent to stimulate because it sends a message that is dishonest. It does not excuse men from acting on it though. Trampy is a way of presenting. Some cultures have women topless without issue. There appears to have been a time in "Greek" or other ancient cultures where women wore clothes that allowed for the breasts to be free. In Western culture there is a "look", by way of attire that sends messages based on cultural norms. If one goes to the areas whee women sell themselves and see how they dress and then see a similar attire from women not for sale, one has to wonder why. It is cues from entertainment and movies, for sure. How one looks has a premium over what one ''is''. It is partially mindless, even innocent in a naive way but, men are wired a certain way by Nature, and it's not nice to fool with Mother Nature. Just like it would not be nice to wave a savory dish of food before a person who would like some. Especially a hungry or impoverished one. That is to say, men need to behave and it would be respectful and thoughtful if the other side took that into consideration. Respect is a two way street.

What is happening in Europe is a mess, a well planned one.

Thank you for a thoughtful reply.

[lcam88]

How do we ignore the indiscriminate bombing and droning of innocents by 'civilized' Western values and culture. An amputation by bomb or missile for the offense of being in ones home country that has not declared war on another nation is just as bad, IMO. To think we have better values or culture while our military(s) punish innocents is hypocrisy in the extreme. We cannot celebrate our "culture" when it indiscriminately punishes innocents.

That's it!

At the moment, I don't know what to do about it. Do you know what can be done?

[lcam88]

You mean to tell me that 1940's Europeans were accepting of honor killings, cutting of thieves' hands and sexually assaulting women who wore short skirts?

No, they did other things...

If you think I am moralizing or making judgments about whose culture is "better" then you have read things into my posts that don't exist and are arguing with things that I have never said in the first place. I am talking about the situation that is going on in Europe right now with increased violence from Muslim immigrants.

Hierarchy indeed.

Different values, same fundamental about theft (taking of valuables). Perhaps they want their virtues celebrated, as though they have something to teach european society?

Again lcamm what I actually said is much simpler and narrower than the giant discussion you are trying to broaden this into. I said that secular humanist European culture is not compatible with a culture that thinks it's okay to do things like kill women rape victims because they had sex outside of marriage, or chop peoples' hands off for stealing.

I agree that cutting someones hand of is barbaric, as are the 100 lashes type punishments. I grew up in America bsbray, obviously I find such forms of punishment to be cruel and unusual.

That said, when migrant grope or rape european women during an open celebration, or even on an ordinary day at a public swimming facility, the impulse by the public officials is to bury the problem? To avoid mention of it? These are modern times, yes?

A homeowner in Finland has been sentenced to four years in jail and a hefty fine after fighting off three intruders who attempted to rob his house. The thieves, meanwhile, got lesser prison terms and are to be paid damages by their victim.

That seems very modern. Here is the link to the article.

I only brought the images in from the middle ages because of the great images you posted. Europeans cannot claim any kind of superiority when it comes to their treatment of their brethren.

Indeed the whole concept of original sin (Adam and Eve bible story) is all about blaming women for the demise of mankind. And while the bible doesn't go to any lengths to describe how to "restore order" as the koran may, it certainly leaves it some type of institutional initiative. So even as you may point the infallible argument of how nasty certain islamic cultures are to women it is disingenuous at best to think western traditions are so much better. Did you notice how at least two, perhaps three, of the torture devices where designed with female anatomy in mind? The rest being rather agnostic to the sex by consideration of its design? Do you think that is some type of coincidence?

And I am obviously talking about modern times, like, what is relevant today. It is a very simple statement and has nothing to do with the Middle Ages or whether or not what the CIA does would theoretically be considered acceptable or what kind of democracy exists in Europe.

I like simplicity. People support government, government sponsors CIA, CIA acts in questionable ways. But the fact remains, people support CIA through government. And when democracy dissolves what other real claim to superiority do Europeans have? That is what I referred to with that civilization vs wilderness bit. All that is left is posturing, perhaps like a savage animal, queue some other new and creative torture device since we have thumbs and we like our tools.

REF Witch trials google findings on Wiki

Despite the official ending of the trials for Satanic witchcraft, there would still be occasional unofficial killings of those accused in parts of Europe, such as was seen in the cases of Anna Klemens in Denmark (1800), Krystyna Ceynowa in Poland (1836), and Dummy, the Witch of Sible Hedingham in England (1863). In France, there was sporadic violence and even murder in the 1830s, with one woman reportedly burnt in a village square in Nord.[56]

In the 1830s a prosecution for witchcraft was commenced against a man in Fentress County, Tennessee named either Joseph or William Stout, based upon his alleged influence over the health of a young woman. The case against the supposed witch was dismissed upon the failure of the alleged victim, who had sworn out a warrant against him, to appear for the trial. However, some of his other accusers were convicted on criminal charges for their part in the matter, and various libel actions were brought.[4][5][57] In 1895, Bridget Cleary was beaten and burned to death by her husband in Ireland because he suspected that fairies had taken the real Bridget and replaced her with a witch.

I agree this isn't Salem specifically. My facts where off, bsbray. I'll put a bit more effort researching details when I exchange future ideas with you.

Lastly, perhaps these cases are isolated incidents (outliers) shared on Wiki that don't properly represent European modern cultural values. Since my position is largely to overlook individualism and use the more broad brush to "paint with", I suppose the outlier nature of these cases prevents them from actually from being very supportive of my position. That also to say that islamic culture certainly cannot claim their acts against women are isolated incidents.

[modwiz]

That's it!

At the moment, I don't know what to do about it. Do you know what can be done?

Without a popular realization of the criminality of our goobermint, no I do not. I feel we need to understand that our troops belong at home and not in other countries around the world fighting for "American Interests" which are corporate interests. When the average person hears American Interests they think security is the issue. With two oceans on either side the USA, we have no credible enemies.

[lcam88]

Without a popular realization of the criminality of our goobermint, no I do not. I feel we need to understand that our troops belong at home and not in other countries around the world fighting for "American Interests" which are corporate interests. When the average person hears American Interests they think security is the issue. With two oceans on either side the USA, we have no credible enemies.

+1 to conservative values – Troops belong at home!

It is a shame that US national security is now such a fragile bird that we suddenly we all need to accept such huge invasions of our personal freedoms to somehow prevent the crystal of shattering. And with that sense of how fragile national security has become, our immigrant policy is purely hypocritical, we would expect bigger clamp downs. Hillary Clinton obviously deserves mention with those emails while making mention of the fragile state of national security.

It seems to me the whole national security claim is analogous to the hyper-sensitive cry baby that must get what it wants; that we have been pandering or enabling this "cry-baby" attitude whole new levels of absurdity. Perhaps with this false sense that oversight was actually effective...

Perhaps that is an idea worth exploring, how to desensitize people from the "cry-baby" attitude?

Corporate Interests is another area where ideas can be developed. It comes down to games-theory, or perhaps the prisoners dilemma. Global consumers are by and large disorganized in their consumption habits. Prisoners dilemma would suggest that by organizing our consumption acts we can at least "stale-mate" the opposition (corporate interests). To put more simply, every time we purchase an item, we effectively apply our dollars to "vote" for the continuation of the corporation that produced the item. IF we stop "voting" for their continuation, they go broke. But furthermore, once critical mass is reached, consumers taking part in this coordinated effort effectively create their own market as they continue to have needs that must be met. The problem with this idea is rather obvious, right?

The other ideas that I more commonly entertain, mostly imaginative ones, I don't yet know what to do with. They involve things like "energize the earth", perhaps by unlocking some potential yet officially unknown. While they may be fantastical, I don't think they are beyond the realm os the inquisitive neo-scientific mind. The intuit is that all the carbon in the atmosphere presents an opportunity...

[bsbray]

I like simplicity. People support government, government sponsors CIA, CIA acts in questionable ways. But the fact remains, people support CIA through government.

The CIA has been totally out of the government's control. I think it's closer to the truth to say that the CIA and its buddies have been controlling the rest of our government. The last democratically-elected official I remember that was going to do something about them was Kennedy and we all know how that went over.

Again I am not claiming any kind of European superiority over anything. You have been putting all of these words in my mouth and arguing with things I haven't said for probably 4 or 5 posts by now.

---

I have issues with women dressing trampy with the intent to stimulate because it sends a message that is dishonest. It does not excuse men from acting on it though.

I definitely know what you mean with this but I've also come to realize that the female mind does function differently on this issue and they don't always (consciously) think of it this way. I'm no expert on the female mind by any means and I probably never will be. But with the way beauty and looking good is made so much more important for women than it is for men, I can understand when people talk about how women dress up in certain ways to feel good about themselves, to feel confident and this kind of stuff. I mean I understand how something like this could be the case, that it's as much social pressure as anything else. Fortunately the male body hasn't been nearly as objectified, or men just don't care about that kind of thing anyway, and I feel pretty much the same no matter what I'm wearing out in public, so long as I'm not too cold or too warm.

The people coming out of these regions where women wear full body veils have another way of looking at things that I do not understand, but I think it's pretty clear that for them women are not on the same level as men and they really don't care what the impact is on the women they assault. This is just one symptom of the wider issue which is, these people don't come from a secular humanist culture that has had all the social movements that the west has.

[lcam88]

The CIA has been totally out of the government's control. I think it's closer to the truth to say that the CIA and its buddies have been controlling the rest of our government. The last democratically-elected official I remember that was going to do something about them was Kennedy and we all know how that went over.

Again I am not claiming any kind of European superiority over anything. You have been putting all of these words in my mouth and arguing with things I haven't said for probably 4 or 5 posts by now.

I agree with your view on CIA, mostly. The Polish government did permit the prison facility, arguable against the population's will. Whether that was because of CIA has enough control in Poland's government to force its way in or not is something I don't know. I will add that I normally expect these guys to have some type of diplomatic immunity but that is different...

Pardon me for being argumentative for 4 or 5 posts. I understand your views, I do agree with most of them, just don't necessarily all of them, and felt the need to reply, albeit rather clumsily. I do really appreciate the effort you put into those thoughtful replies.

[bsbray]

Yes, I realize that we are mostly in agreement. Even though I use words like "good" and "bad" in my posts from time to time, though, I really am not in the habit of judging things in that way. My attitude is more "it is what it is" and "where do we take this from here?", rather than spending time judging or moralizing about what is happening in an abstract way. There is plenty to facepalm about in every nation on Earth, and everybody has their strengths and weaknesses.

[lcam88]

Indeed bsbray.

I admit to taking much more liberty in sharing my judgements. I don't really think that is the main problem though, during our postings, it became clear you where referring to modern Europe only whereas I had no qualms finding skeletons in the closet of European history. That didn't help much at all, especially without having made it clear.

</back on topic>

[Aianawa]

So, tptW were definitely the main influence and Russia now holding Turkeys hand ?.