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Thread: CIA and Pentagon Bicker While Russia Wipes Out U.S.-Backed Rebels

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    CIA and Pentagon Bicker While Russia Wipes Out U.S.-Backed Rebels

    A buddy sent me this article. I think it's good to keep in mind that factions within the US right now are not seeing eye-to-eye with each other. This has already been apparent on the international scale but I think it will become more and more apparent domestically with our presidential election cycle this summer and fall.

    CIA and Pentagon Bicker While Russia Wipes Out U.S.-Backed Rebels
    American-armed rebels are in deep trouble in the city of Aleppo. Washington’s response: Escalate the fight—between the U.S. military and intelligence communities.

    U.S.-backed opposition forces in Syria’s largest city are facing a ferocious Russian-led assault, raising fears that the rebels could be eliminated in a matter of weeks.

    So how are the Pentagon and the intelligence community responding?

    By catfighting among themselves.

    Two Department of Defense officials told The Daily Beast that they are not eager to support the rebels in the city of Aleppo because they’re seen as being affiliated with al Qaeda in Syria, or Jabhat al Nusra. The CIA, which supports those rebel groups, rejects that claim, saying alliances of convenience in the face of a mounting Russian-led offensive have created marriages of battlefield necessity, not ideology.

    “It is a strange thing that DoD hall chatter mimics Russian propaganda,” one U.S. official, who supports the intelligence community position, wryly noted to Pentagon claims that the opposition and Nusra are one in the same.

    But even if the rebels were completely separated from Nusra, there would still be something of a strategic conflict with U.S. military goals. The rebels in Aleppo, these Pentagon officials note, are fighting the Bashar al-Assad regime; the American military effort, on the other hand, is primarily about defeating the self-proclaimed Islamic State.

    “We have no role in Aleppo. The forces we are supporting… are fighting ISIS,” one defense official explained to The Daily Beast.

    The intelligence community, which backed opposition forces in Aleppo, believes ISIS cannot be defeated as long as Assad is in power. The terror group, they say, thrives in unstable territories. And only local forces—like the ones backed by the CIA—can mitigate that threat.

    “The status of the opposition is resilient in the face of horrendous attacks by the Syrian and Russian forces,” a U.S. intelligence official explained to The Daily Beast. “The defeat of Assad is a necessary precondition to ultimately defeat [ISIS]. As long as there is a failed leader in Damascus and a failed state in Syria, [ISIS] will have a place to operate from.

    “You can’t deal with ISIS if you have a failed state,” the U.S. official observed.

    The interagency squabble is a manifestation of growing tension about the U.S. approach to arming rebels, which is inconsistent across Syria.

    The Defense Department currently is helping some rebels fighting ISIS in northern and eastern Syria, with more than 250 U.S. military advisers alongside forces marching toward the ISIS capital of Raqqa. This combination of fighters also is attacking the city of Manbij, which has served as a major thoroughfare for ISIS fighters, weapons, and supplies traveling from Turkey to Syria. Meanwhile, the CIA is backing some opposition forces in Aleppo, Syria’s biggest city and the site of a Russian- and Syrian-led air offensive over the past few weeks.

    “The U.S. has two isolated programs that are not mutually supporting each other and are actually sometimes at odds with each other,” said Jennifer Cafarella, a Syria analyst at the Washington-based Institute for the Study of War.

    Indeed, U.S. support for a particular group can change from one part of Syria to another. The Pentagon, for example, backs Kurdish forces associated with the YPG, the armed force of the Kurdish Democratic Union Party, in eastern Syria but not the YPG in northern Aleppo. Indeed, the YPG just north of Aleppo has attacked U.S.-backed forces with Russian help.

    “We are not a country of agencies that butt up against each other. The White House needs to decide what its approach is toward Assad and the rebel groups. I think they do have a defined policy toward ISIS,” Daveed Gartenstein-Ross, a senior fellow at the Washington, D.C.-based Foundation for Defense of Democracies, told The Daily Beast.

    The division within the Obama administration comes at a critical time for the war in Syria. Aleppo could descend into a months-long siege between opposition and Russian-backed government forces, endangering civilians and potentially creating a new refugee flow. That’s the better-case scenario. At worst for the opponents of the regime, Aleppo could fall under Assad control within weeks, potentially ensuring his survival. And yet the fall of Aleppo offers no guaranteed outcomes for the war. Indeed, it could encourage Assad’s opponents, like Turkey and Saudi Arabia, to increase their support for the opposition fighting on the front lines.

    Regardless, Assad’s confidence was on display earlier this week when he addressed parliament and said he would rid Aleppo of its foreign-backed “terrorists,” going so far as to say Aleppo will eventually become Turkey’s “graveyard.”

    “Our war against terrorism is continuing,” Assad said in a speech to parliament broadcast by state TV. “As we liberated [Palmyra] and before it many areas, we will liberate every inch of Syria from their hands. Our only option is victory, otherwise Syria will not continue,” Assad reportedly said.

    Russia has said the strikes are targeting only terrorist outfits like Nusra, but such claims are increasingly hard to take seriously. Russian strikes have hit numerous hospitals and routes used by the more moderate opposition.

    On Wednesday, at least 15 people were killed in two government air strikes in Aleppo, according to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, which monitors civilian deaths. One strike reportedly struck the Bayan hospital, killing at least 10. The observatory reported that barrel bombs dropped from government helicopters killed at least five others, including two children, in the Aleppo neighborhood of al-Marjeh.

    And according to Institute for the Study of War, which maps attacks across Syria, the number of places that have come under Russian attack nationwide over the past five days has tripled—from roughly 10 to 30. Among the tactics Russia has deployed, according to ISW, is to launch a series of attacks along a main opposition supply route thoroughfare, Castello Road.

    And yet there is no push with the Obama administration to give more arms to the opposition groups or increase support, and both defense and administration officials concede that crafting a strategy that appeals to all is difficult.

    “It’s not clear there is a defined set of policies for helping the opposition where the benefits would outweigh the costs. And that is due to the problem with al Qaeda being such a strong force with the opposition. How do you strengthen the opposition without strengthening al Qaeda?” Gartenstein-Ross said.

    To be sure, the U.S.-led coalition does not have the authority to go after the Syrian regime and its push to break the will of opposition. The U.S. military mission only authorizes strikes that target ISIS. Practically speaking, there are challenges, as well. The U.S. and Russia currently de-conflict to avoid disasters during their air campaign. That gives Russia something of a say in where U.S. strikes happen, and Assad’s backers are unlikely to make strikes against government forces targeting opposition forces easier.

    Perhaps that’s why the U.S.-led coalition has not conducted any strikes around Aleppo in weeks, according to Pentagon statistics.

    Whatever the outcome in Aleppo, critics argue the lack of a clear approach toward rebels weakens the U.S. ability to help resolve the five-year civil war.

    “The most likely outcome in the near term is that these groups coalesce around hardline elements that are more effective,” Cafarella said
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...source=twitter

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    Briefly put, they're simply expressing their human nature. Ever hear of the infamous feud of the Hatfield's and McCoy's?
    Last edited by Gale Frierson, 14th June 2016 at 11:14. Reason: Typo

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    And this plays in the interest of Israel; their alias, USA and Russia are doing a good job.

    CIA and Pentagon Bickering does not really include what happens to Syria, they are pretty much in agreement there. They bicker over the details that determine who is "winning" in their proxy war-game scenario in play.

    Russia, backing Assad, is a third force that gets to go in an take no prisoners and have an easy "out" in the whole confict; Assad just as to say, thank you and please stand by. All Russia really seems to be doing is taking equal bites out of CIA pawns and Pentagon Pawns. The US likes that because it becomes an exercise in adapting to the changing elements on the battlefield and the strategies that effectively permit some measure of recoverable capacity especially when local infrastructure is non-existent, these types of games sharpen logistical capacities and tactics.

    The sad thing is, who cares if a few zombies (valueless mindless beings fixated on killing and pain) are taken out. Just to understand that, has anyone seen how many zombie killing shows are on TV these days?

    I think a real question to consider is: when are these religious fanatics going to stop being zombies. My prediction: never. Just look at what they are about in Europe.

    AND who cares, I mean, how are they NOT zombies?

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    If you read between the lines in the article above, lcamm, you'll see that the Pentagon also has no interest in removing Assad from power. They are trying to keep him in power from the looks of things, and so they align with the Russians in that regard. I believe this is also why Russia was able to move into Syria directly and the US military just rolled over and let them. Obama and McCain were whining but the US military itself actually withdrew NATO anti-aircraft batteries from Turkey and other potential obstacles to allow Russia more room to do its work. That's not just acquiescing but enabling the Russians to destroy ISIS.

    Whether or not Assad stays in power is more than just a trivial detail, because if he falls to the CIA-backed rebels, they're going to put in another Muslim-brotherhood-type of fanatical puppet leader, or worse, like the total chaos that still embroils Libya. Incidentally many of those "refugees" pouring into Europe and raising hell are coming from Libya. You can thank Clinton for all of the sexual assaults and rapes from Germany to Sweden being committed by the Muslim "refugees."
    Last edited by bsbray, 14th June 2016 at 17:17.

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    Supporting freedom fighters is not supporting Assad. Incidentally some of these freedom fighters get into conflicts with ISIS, that is why they get backing; they represent an opportunity to fight ISIS. Removing Assad was certainly a Pentagon objective, at least as long as Clinton was Secretary of State; such a move would be great for the Saudis. If that plan seems limp, it doesn't mean the Pentagon necessarily changed its position. I just means they shuffled their priorities.

    I agree that Assad in or not in power is really more about political positioning than much else, however he is certainly more allied with Russia than either US institution, that is basically what I think I wrote above. You never see the Pentagon acting like Assad is a friend.

    Russia's official line is that they were able to move in because they had a legitimate request from a sovereign nation, not because the Pentagon figured they needed Russian help. There was probably some additional "incentives" from some other player in the region that resulted in the further "enabling" of the Russian initiative. That is perspective for the degraded relationship between Obama and Netanyahu.

    And just to touch on how much Obama must have been tickled by the whole thing: the Crimea!

    PS, Refugees... thanks for dropping the politically correct "synonym". So you do think there is a difference, that indeed I'm mischaracterizing the subject matter referenced by the terms. I was referring to the whole lot (Syria, Europe, Africa etc) of them actually, I was flexing my stereotyping muscles so to speak. I don't know why it would be necessary to distinguish between them when they mostly accept the same values.
    Last edited by lcam88, 14th June 2016 at 19:42. Reason: ps

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    Quote Originally posted by lcam88 View Post
    Supporting freedom fighters is not supporting Assad. Incidentally some of these freedom fighters get into conflicts with ISIS, that is why they get backing; they represent an opportunity to fight ISIS. Removing Assad was certainly a Pentagon objective, at least as long as Clinton was Secretary of State; such a move would be great for the Saudis. If that plan seems limp, it doesn't mean the Pentagon necessarily changed its position. I just means they shuffled their priorities.
    This is part of the disagreement too, because Saudi Arabia has not been on the good graces of certain factions within the US either. Obama has went over there a couple of times lately on butt-kissing missions or whatever he is doing, but we've already had the 9/11 legislation pass one body of Congress opening up Saudi Arabia to lawsuits, and the Pentagon was also pretty openly aiding the Yemenis against Saudi incursions there for a while. Within the last year or so Yemen (with US military support) was actually able to destroy most of Saudi Arabia's jet fighters in a single strike, on top of repelling a prepared ground invasion.

    The strategic plan for taking out Assad seems to have been fielding mercenaries from Aleppo and pushing towards Damascus, with supplies pouring in across the border from Turkey. This is exactly where Pentagon-backed forces have been confronting the CIA-backed forces, which is why the campaign to overthrow Assad hasn't been going so well for them. Regardless of what Pentagon talking heads are saying, the facts on the ground indicate that the Pentagon (and Russia) have been doing exactly what is required to check CIA forces in northwestern Syria and prevent them from taking any more territory. Russia is also hitting them in the wallet by destroying the oil wells where they've been getting their oil to sell illegally (to western companies) for funds.

    I agree that Assad in or not in power is really more about political positioning than much else, however he is certainly more allied with Russia than either US institution, that is basically what I think I wrote above. You never see the Pentagon acting like Assad is a friend.
    What the Pentagon-backed troops in Syria are actually doing in Syria speaks louder than what they say in press releases, which are undoubtedly colored by politics. I didn't say that the Pentagon "needed Russian help," but that they facilitated Russia's entrance into Syria. Meaning, instead of doing anything to hinder the Russians, they actually cooperated by doing things like removing NATO anti-aircraft batteries from Turkey, in anticipation of Turkey trying to antagonize the Russians (which they in fact did -- to no result from NATO).

    And just to touch on how much Obama must have been tickled by the whole thing: the Crimea!
    That's something else that the Pentagon and NATO seem to have backed down from. Remember all the saber rattling and troops amassing in Poland and other countries on the borders of Russia's allies? They've since backed off of that too.

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    We have all heard of the Crimean war, I hope. Crimea was part of Russia then and it is now again re-united, not annexed or invaded.
    "To learn who rules over you simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" -- Voltaire

    "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."-- Eleanor Roosevelt

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    The US didn't interfere with their complete slaughter of Yemen.

    I think US policy in Syria is more closely aligned with Israel than with Saudi Arabia.

    At one point the Saudis saber rattled about getting more directly involved in Syria. If my point above is indeed the point of consideration, that would have placed Saudi Arabia firmly in the sights of Israel. That is something that they would have thought long and hard about.

    Butt-kissing is just games-theory speak for saving-face and wait for the next round. And yes, the US does a lot of that.

    Quote Originally posted by bsbray View Post
    This is part of the disagreement too, because Saudi Arabia has not been on the good graces of certain factions within the US either. Obama has went over there a couple of times lately on butt-kissing missions or whatever he is doing, but we've already had the 9/11 legislation pass one body of Congress opening up Saudi Arabia to lawsuits, and the Pentagon was also pretty openly aiding the Yemenis against Saudi incursions there for a while. Within the last year or so Yemen (with US military support) was actually able to destroy most of Saudi Arabia's jet fighters in a single strike, on top of repelling a prepared ground invasion.

    The strategic plan for taking out Assad seems to have been fielding mercenaries from Aleppo and pushing towards Damascus, with supplies pouring in across the border from Turkey. This is exactly where Pentagon-backed forces have been confronting the CIA-backed forces, which is why the campaign to overthrow Assad hasn't been going so well for them. Regardless of what Pentagon talking heads are saying, the facts on the ground indicate that the Pentagon (and Russia) have been doing exactly what is required to check CIA forces in northwestern Syria and prevent them from taking any more territory. Russia is also hitting them in the wallet by destroying the oil wells where they've been getting their oil to sell illegally (to western companies) for funds.

    ...

    What the Pentagon-backed troops in Syria are actually doing in Syria speaks louder than what they say in press releases, which are undoubtedly colored by politics. I didn't say that the Pentagon "needed Russian help," but that they facilitated Russia's entrance into Syria. Meaning, instead of doing anything to hinder the Russians, they actually cooperated by doing things like removing NATO anti-aircraft batteries from Turkey, in anticipation of Turkey trying to antagonize the Russians (which they in fact did -- to no result from NATO).

    ...

    That's something else that the Pentagon and NATO seem to have backed down from. Remember all the saber rattling and troops amassing in Poland and other countries on the borders of Russia's allies? They've since backed off of that too.
    That pentagon backed groups are performing certain actions doesn't mean that they necessarily respond to the pentagon. Arms length from arguably what is a terrorist organisation is nice. I think special ops are clearly involved in some aspects of the tactical capacity, but really. The US more or less is just spoon feeding these guys with whatever they need to continue destroying the countryside. Trucks, logistical support, airdrop ammo, advanced warnings of whatever, perhaps psychological drugs like anti-depressants and stimulants etc etc.

    I mention the Crimea because the US got so vocal about backing the Ukraine that they even almost admitted to the coop. For them to have to give that up, presumably for the "bigger picture –*Syria op" is yet another failure that gets pinned on Obama, that is part of his legacy. I'm willing to bet "negotiations" with Netanyahu where very short.

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    Israel is speaking with Moscow because they can be relied on to do what they say and let you know what is not said also carries a message. Latest talks were described as productive but, not friendly. Diplo-speak is subtle but, there is much in that subtlety. USA uses weasel words.
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    Yes indeed.

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    Quote Originally posted by lcam88 View Post
    The US didn't interfere with their complete slaughter of Yemen.
    I didn't realize Yemen was completely slaughtered. Not sure what "complete slaughter" you are referring to but the battle is not entirely one-sided.

    As far as what has been happening to Saudi Arabia, coming out of Yemen:

    Yemeni Army Claims Hundreds of Saudi Vehicles, Numerous Aircraft Destroyed

    Army spokesman Brig. Gen. Sharaf Ghalib Luqman said that Yemen's armed forces have destroyed dozens of tanks, hundreds of armored vehicles, as well as numerous military aircraft belonging to the Saudi-led coalition since the beginning of its military intervention.

    CAIRO (Sputnik) – Yemen's armed forces have destroyed dozens of tanks, hundreds of armored vehicles, as well as numerous military aircraft belonging to the Saudi-led coalition since the beginning of its military intervention, army spokesman Brig. Gen. Sharaf Ghalib Luqman said Tuesday.

    [...]

    "We have shot down ten Apache attack helicopters, three F-16 fighter jets and a lot of drones," he added.
    http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20...-vehicles.html


    63 children among 375 killed in Yemen attacks into Saudi Arabia

    Mortars and rockets fired at Saudi Arabian towns and villages have killed 375 civilians, including 63 children, since the start of the Saudi-led military campaign in Yemen in late March, Brig. Gen. Ahmed Al-Assiri, spokesman of the coalition forces and advisor at the office of the minister of defense, told Reuters.

    He said that the Houthi militia and forces loyal to ousted president Ali Abdullah Saleh had fired more than 40,000 projectiles across the border since the war began.

    “Now our rules of engagement are: you are close to the border, you are killed,” he said.

    In a measure of how fierce the fighting on the frontier continues to be, nearly 130 mortars and 15 missiles were fired by the Houthis and Saleh’s forces at Saudi border positions on Monday alone, Assiri said in an interview in Riyadh.

    The civilians killed in Saudi Arabia included both Saudis and expatriates, Assiri said.

    Along the Saudi-Yemen border, the constant attacks by the Houthis and Saleh’s forces have forced the Saudi authorities to evacuate a dozen villages and over 7,000 people from frontier districts, closing over 500 schools, Assiri said.
    http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News...di-Arabia.html


    US government admits deploying troops in Yemen

    A small team of U.S. troops was on the ground in Yemen and Navy ships with Marines aboard were offshore to support friendly forces against an al-Qaeda offshoot as the U.S. deepened its involvement in yet another Mideast civil war, the Pentagon said Friday.
    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/0...095524640.html

    Who created al Qaeda again? According to many sources, it was western intelligence agencies including the CIA. So what has the CIA been doing in Yemen lately?

    CIA scales back presence and operations in Yemen, home of potent al-Qaeda affiliate

    The closure of the U.S. Embassy in Yemen has forced the CIA to significantly scale back its counterterrorism presence in the country, according to current and former U.S. officials, who said the evacuation represents a major setback in operations against al-Qaeda’s most dangerous affiliate.

    The spy agency has pulled dozens of operatives, analysts and other staffers from Yemen as part of a broader extraction of roughly 200 Americans who had been based at the embassy in Sanaa, officials said. Among those removed were senior officers who worked closely with Yemen’s intelligence and security services to target al-Qaeda operatives and disrupt terrorism plots often aimed at the United States.
    More like a setback in the CIA's support of al Qaeda in that country, unless you seriously believe that the CIA is fighting al Qaeda.

    Funny how the US has troops stationed in Yemen and just allows the Yemeni military to destroy targets in Saudi Arabia like this. It's almost as if the Pentagon isn't concerned about protecting Saudi Arabia. Where else in US politics have we seen anti-Saudi sentiment?

    Senate Passes Bill Exposing Saudi Arabia to 9/11 Legal Claims

    WASHINGTON — A bill that would let the families of those killed in the Sept. 11 attacks sue Saudi Arabia for any role in the terrorist plot passed the Senate unanimously on Tuesday, bringing Congress closer to a showdown with the White House, which has threatened to veto the legislation.

    The Senate’s passage of the bill, which will now be taken up in the House, is another sign of escalating tensions in a relationship between the United States and Saudi Arabia that once received little scrutiny from lawmakers.

    Administration officials have lobbied against the bill, a view that the White House spokesman Josh Earnest reiterated after the vote. And the Saudi government has warned that if the legislation passes, it might begin selling off up to $750 billion in Treasury securities and other assets in the United States before they face a danger of being frozen by American courts. Adel al-Jubeir, the Saudi foreign minister, delivered the warning to lawmakers and the administration while in Washington in March.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/18/us...9-11.html?_r=0


    I think US policy in Syria is more closely aligned with Israel than with Saudi Arabia.
    I don't know if you've been keeping up with the situation in Israel lately but they have problems of their own. When Russia moved into Syria and the US did nothing, Israel felt abandoned by the US and expressed as much through their media. But they quickly warmed up to the Russians because they had no choice. Israel wanted Assad out too, but by now they're starting to realize that it's not going to happen. Netanyahu's administration is also facing issues, being accused of extremism by a resigning defense minister lately as Netanyahu's party still only holds its majority in the Knesset by 1 single vote. Netanyahu replaced the minister with an extremely controversial figure (Lieberman) that many Israelis believed should be in prison. If any party loses confidence in Netanyahu it will trigger another round of emergency elections that could see him removed from power.

    At one point the Saudis saber rattled about getting more directly involved in Syria. If my point above is indeed the point of consideration, that would have placed Saudi Arabia firmly in the sights of Israel. That is something that they would have thought long and hard about.
    The Saudis and Israelis were both supporting ISIS. There is a fair amount of information to indicate this that you can find online. Saudi Arabia and Israel are not the enemies that you might think they are.

    Is Israel forming an alliance with Egypt and Saudi Arabia?

    Egypt's April 9 announcement of the transfer of two islands, Tiran and Sanafir, to Saudi Arabian sovereignty came as a complete surprise to many in the Middle East. The only country that was not surprised was Israel. A top-level official in Jerusalem told Al-Monitor on April 12 that Israel had been privy to the secret negotiations. Israel had given its approval to the process and did not ask to reopen the peace agreement with Egypt, even though the agreement dictates that any territorial change or transfer of Egyptian sovereignty of lands that Israel gave back to other hands constitutes a violation of the treaty.

    Talks between Saudi Arabia and Egypt on the transfer of these islands have been going on for years, with Israel firmly opposing the move. The fact that the transfer has now earned Israeli support reflects the depth of the shared interests between the three sides: Cairo, Riyadh and Jerusalem — although the Egyptians and Saudis prefer the label “Tel Aviv.”

    This is a real geostrategic and diplomatic drama. Former Shin Bet chief Knesset member Avi Dichter of the Likud Party said on April 12 in an interview with the Israeli Kol Yisrael radio station that this step is one of the most important, dramatic diplomatic occurrences that have taken place between two Arab countries in the Middle East. Israeli Defense Minister Moshe (Bogie) Ya’alon, in a small pre-Passover celebratory toast with military reporters, updated and confirmed that Israel had, indeed, agreed to the course of action and had even received a written document, signed by all sides. The document confirmed Israel’s continued freedom of navigation in the Strait of Tiran, in which the two strategic islands are situated; the Strait of Tiran led to the important Israeli port city of Eilat. In addition, Ya’alon noted that the Americans had been partnered to the negotiations and are also signatories on the agreement. Thus, Ya’alon said, Israel had received all the requisite guarantees.

    According to a senior security official, who spoke to Al-Monitor on condition of anonymity, Ya’alon emphasized to his associates that security cooperation between Israel and Egypt had reached an all-time high. The security systems of the two countries share the same interests. Egyptians, for instance, help Israel contain and cordon off Hamas in Gaza.
    http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/orig...-alliance.html


    Red Sea Deal: Are Israel & Saudi Arabia Forming a Joint Military?

    Clarice Palmer
    April 14, 2016

    (ANTIMEDIA) As more details emerge revealing the brutal nature of the ongoing military campaign carried out by Saudi Arabia in Yemen, Muslim Press reports that documents leaked by an unnamed senior military official associated with the Israeli left-wing liberal party Meretz show Israel and Saudi Arabia have cooperated in military efforts. The report also suggests some of the islands tied to the recent Red Sea deal are also being used by both nations to train their joined military.

    The 2014 memorandum claims Israel hosted a number of Saudi officers in military training courses carried out at the Port of Haifa base in Israel. The training allegedly took place in 2015. While a recent Jerusalem Post report confirms the Saudi kingdom and the Jewish state have been close as of late, the outlet also claims details pertaining to the alleged ties between the nations aren’t likely to be made public — and that Israel’s involvement in the Red Sea deal, which secured the transfer of the islands of Sanafir and Tiran from Egypt to Saudi Arabia, is just another one of the many “covert” interactions between the two countries.

    In the Muslim Press report, Israel and Saudi Arabia are implicated in the “formation of a joint operation” in Tiran Island, one of the islands handed over to Saudi Arabia after Israel’s approval of the agreement between the Saudis and Egyptians.

    While the Jerusalem Post does not mention any military training carried out by either nations in the past couple of years, journalist and security expert Yossi Melman admits Israel’s involvement in the deal between the Saudis and Egypt “is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the secret processes taking place behind the scene.”

    Though Israel and Saudi Arabia do not have formal diplomatic ties, the Jerusalem Post reports, “the two countries do have third-party economic ties which see Israeli products – agricultural and technilogical [sic] goods – arriving via the Palestinian Authority, Jordan or Cyprus.” According to the report,, Iran is seen as the number one threat to both the Saudis and Israelis. As a result of their common fear, the Saudis have given Jerusalem “approval for Air Force jets to pass through their airspace” in the past, just in case the Jewish state decides to attack Iran’s nuclear facilities.
    http://theantimedia.org/red-sea-deal...oint-military/


    Saudi Hires “Israel Friendly” Security Firm to Overlook Hajj, Muslim Pilgrimage to Mecca

    This year [2013], the mandatory Muslim pilgrimage to Mecca, or hajj, will compound the Palestinians’ woes. Palestinian pilgrims will be greeted by a company that assists in their repression – and even torture – under the Israeli occupation regime. Indeed, hajj this year will be brought to you by none other than G4S.

    [“First, the company has provided security equipment and services to incarceration facilities holding Palestinian political prisoners inside Israel and in the occupied West Bank. Second, the company offers security services to businesses in settlements. Third, the company has provided equipment and maintenance services to Israeli military checkpoints in the West Bank. Finally, the company has also provided security systems for the Israeli police headquarters in the West Bank.” G4S at http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/8903]

    This is not the first time that the Saudi government has hired the private security firm, which has recruited a staggering 700,000 to provide hajj-related services this year, according to exclusive information obtained by Al-Akhbar. Most of the leaked reports indicate that security for the hajj season since 2010 has been entrusted to al-Majal G4S, an affiliate of the parent company G4S.
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/saudi-h...-mecca/5392600


    Sunday Times: Israel, Saudi Arabia Cooperating to Plan Possible Iran Attack

    Israel and Saudi Arabia are secretly working together on plans for a possible attack against Iran in case the Geneva talks fail to roll back its nuclear program, British paper The Sunday Times reported.

    The two countries' shared concern has put them at odds with the United States as the latter continues to seek an agreement with Iran to ease economic sanctions in return for pulling back nuclear development.
    http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.558512

    Speaking of which (sought agreement with Iran which has since been achieved), there's another 180-degree change in US policy in recent years. Israel and Saudi Arabia are both still staunchly anti-Iran while Washington, not so much.


    That pentagon backed groups are performing certain actions doesn't mean that they necessarily respond to the pentagon. Arms length from arguably what is a terrorist organisation is nice. I think special ops are clearly involved in some aspects of the tactical capacity, but really. The US more or less is just spoon feeding these guys with whatever they need to continue destroying the countryside. Trucks, logistical support, airdrop ammo, advanced warnings of whatever, perhaps psychological drugs like anti-depressants and stimulants etc etc.
    This is pretty much what officials themselves say to maintain plausible deniability. As if they have no control over what happens on the ground, they just give weapons and money and wash their hands of whatever results from that. You really believe this is how they do things?

    If you were a mercenary (as the "rebels" in Syria really are, they are known to be paid to fight), you'd do whatever the people paying you told you to do. You don't just take your paycheck and go raise hell however you feel like and expect to keep getting paid.

    Speaking to the Tasnim News Agency on Sunday, Mohammad Saleh Jokar said the US and the coalition it leads are not after tackling the ISIS, but pursue other objectives.

    On Saturday, Iraqi sources reported that the Arab country’s counter-terrorism forces in an operation in an outlying area in the province of Nineveh have arrested four foreign advisors -three of them from the US and Israel- who were employed as military advisors to the ISIS fighters.

    The arrest of American advisors made it clear for the world public opinion that the ISIS is a product of the US and Washington backs it, Jokar explained.
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/america...ghters/5436525

    So when they embed these "advisors" into ISIS, it's just to maybe offer a suggestion here and there but they have no real interest in what ISIS actually does. Right? I'm just trying to get a handle on who you think is really running the show as far as these mercenaries go. I don't get the idea that they're just being paid and armed to run around haphazardly and do as they please without any oversight from the people paying them.

    What advantage would either the CIA or Pentagon get out of random destruction in Syria, without there being a more specific agenda each of them have in mind? Why would they pour so much time and resources into these mercenary armies without trying to influence what they are doing with it? That doesn't make any sense to me.
    Last edited by bsbray, 14th June 2016 at 23:49.

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    Regarding the Yemeni "slaughter". They have paid an enormous price in infrastructure and bodies. However, their spirit is intact and they will survive and rebuild. Saudi Arabia will slowly have to go away and become the gas station McCain thinks Russia is. Yemen has a culture as do the Russians. Like yogurt, you only need a spoonful to start a new batch. Most of the West and the Gulf monarchies are parasites in search of a new host. Humanity's immune system is becoming more immuno-competent by the day and as a result, resistance will be successful. The masks of benevolence are falling away from the pretenders. The populations of the West are exhausted from being abused and these populations will need to reinvigorate themselves if there is to be a bright future for them. They have a future, for sure but, is it worthy of them. Self-worth determines this value and the West is currently devoid of values in its popular "culture" that is defined by media and hollywood.

    Oh, and sports, where a largely obese crowd watches uber-athletes trash their bodies for the big bucks that will not support them into their future infirmities. When ones future horizons focus on what is on TV or coming to the movie theater, the result will be what escapes ones purview of that future.
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    Well done bsbray. Clearly you know more about it than I do. Thanks for the time and effort to put together such a great posting. I don't think either of us would expect the Yemenis to roll-over, I still think they where slaughtered though, there certainly wasn't parity in the use of force. Saudi Arabia just has so much more in their arsenal.

    I know from several reports that Chechnya nationals are embedded and aiding the Russian efforts against ISIS. Sorry no quote there (I'm too lazy :/ ).

    I would like to think they are more organised than "to run around hapharzardly".

    I really like the questions you end on. The only things that come to mind is who else in the region is benefiting, I've already touched on that.

    If they only would put that money "wasted" in this conflict into domestic US activities that could stimulate the economy. Part of me wants to visit an old topic that Mr Farrell has mentioned, that the factions in the US are in a state of conflict. Maybe that is part of the answer as to why there appears to be so much disorder. And of course there are the darker more sinister views that easily may fit.

    bsbray, do you think all of this is going to spread into a 3rd WW? Or is just part of the "slow burn" that will spread but is "under control"? If you look at the definition of imminent threat as used by the military, it seems to me the pieces may already be in place for the burn to move into Europe. Could that be? Perhaps, part of the leverage certain powers that be are applying to Europe?

    PS Modwiz, that analogy of "a spoonful of yogurt to start a new batch" made me smile, how right you are. They seem to breed hate by the spoonful.

    PSS bsbray, so maybe the Saudis didn't get involved in Syria for some reason that was established in a diplomatic processes with another nation? And mercenaries yes, they do what their employers tell them to do. But they are not all mercenaries, from time to time a mass grave is found...
    Last edited by lcam88, 15th June 2016 at 01:09.

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    Quote Originally posted by lcam88 View Post
    Well done bsbray. Clearly you know more about it than I do. Thanks for the time and effort to put together such a great posting. I don't think either of us would expect the Yemenis to roll-over, I still think they where slaughtered though, there certainly wasn't parity in the use of force. Saudi Arabia just has so much more in their arsenal.

    I know from several reports that Chechnya nationals are embedded and aiding the Russian efforts against ISIS. Sorry no quote there (I'm too lazy :/ ).

    I would like to think they are more organised than "to run around hapharzardly".

    I really like the questions you end on. The only things that come to mind is who else in the region is benefiting, I've already touched on that.

    If they only would put that money "wasted" in this conflict into domestic US activities that could stimulate the economy. Part of me wants to visit an old topic that Mr Farrell has mentioned, that the factions in the US are in a state of conflict. Maybe that is part of the answer as to why there appears to be so much disorder. And of course there are the darker more sinister views that easily may fit.

    bsbray, do you think all of this is going to spread into a 3rd WW? Or is just part of the "slow burn" that will spread but is "under control"? If you look at the definition of imminent threat as used by the military, it seems to me the pieces may already be in place for the burn to move into Europe. Could that be? Perhaps, part of the leverage certain powers that be are applying to Europe?
    Good call. We are blessed that we have moderators who are good, to great, posters. Our ability to largely self moderate leaves them to be able to pursue more noble endeavors, like providing content worthy of consideration and reading.
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    Quote Originally posted by lcam88 View Post
    I don't think either of us would expect the Yemenis to roll-over, I still think they where slaughtered though, there certainly wasn't parity in the use of force. Saudi Arabia just has so much more in their arsenal.
    That may be true and I agree that there isn't parity between the Saudis and Yemenis themselves. The ongoing shift in US policy in the Middle East will more than make up for that though if it continues in the direction it's been going. The thing about opening up Saudi Arabia to the possibility of lawsuits over 9/11 has already been floated as a potential justification to freeze millions of dollars of Saudi assets.

    Saudi Arabia Warns of Economic Fallout if Congress Passes 9/11 Bill

    WASHINGTON — Saudi Arabia has told the Obama administration and members of Congress that it will sell off hundreds of billions of dollars’ worth of American assets held by the kingdom if Congress passes a bill that would allow the Saudi government to be held responsible in American courts for any role in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

    The Obama administration has lobbied Congress to block the bill’s passage, according to administration officials and congressional aides from both parties, and the Saudi threats have been the subject of intense discussions in recent weeks between lawmakers and officials from the State Department and the Pentagon. The officials have warned senators of diplomatic and economic fallout from the legislation.

    Adel al-Jubeir, the Saudi foreign minister, delivered the kingdom’s message personally last month during a trip to Washington, telling lawmakers that Saudi Arabia would be forced to sell up to $750 billion in treasury securities and other assets in the United States before they could be in danger of being frozen by American courts.

    Several outside economists are skeptical that the Saudis will follow through, saying that such a sell-off would be difficult to execute and would end up crippling the kingdom’s economy. But the threat is another sign of the escalating tensions between Saudi Arabia and the United States.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/16/wo...bill.html?_r=0


    PSS bsbray, so maybe the Saudis didn't get involved in Syria for some reason that was established in a diplomatic processes with another nation?
    If Saudi Arabia got involved in Syria they would want to be fighting on the side of ISIS, because they are ideologically similar (and are already supporting ISIS). Despite what is really going on, the Obama administration is of course still lying and saying they want to defeat ISIS, and that Saudi Arabia is still a strong ally (which it may very well be to the Obama administration). So if Saudi Arabia jumped in blatantly on ISIS's side, it would really put Obama in an awkward position and he would pretty much be forced to acknowledge that Saudi Arabia is supporting terrorism. Neither of them want that. So what they are doing instead is supporting them the same way the CIA is, with resources.


    Check this out:

    These Are the People Making Captagon, the Drug ISIS Fighters Take to Feel ‘Invincible’



    [...]

    “When I take Captagon, it doesn’t matter how tired I am, I can keep walking,” the man in the blue hat says. “It doesn’t matter how cold it is — I can take off my shirt and keep going even in the rain. It even makes you want sex more.”

    He gives a dark chuckle. “Some people take so much, if you shoot them, they won’t drop.”

    The house is headquarters for an illegal manufacturing operation that produces Captagon, a controversial amphetamine-based substance making headlines recently as the supposed drug of choice for Islamic State militants and other fighters in Syria’s civil war. Media reports suggested that the men who carried out the ISIS terror attacks in Paris last month had taken Captagon, and that the drug accounted for what some witnesses described as a “zombielike” detachment as they went about their massacre. The two hijab-clad women, young and strikingly pretty, are Syrian workers who help manufacture the drug.
    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...ling-isis.html


    Guess where ISIS mercenaries are getting a lot of this drug?

    Saudi prince arrested over two tonnes of amphetamines being loaded on his private jet after Lebanese officials foil the biggest drug smuggling attempt in its history

    A Saudi prince has been arrested after two tonnes of amphetamines were seized before they were due to be loaded onto his private jet in Lebanon, it has been revealed.

    Lebanese officials say they have foiled one of the biggest drug smuggling attempts in the country's history after the haul of pills was found at Beirut airport.

    Saudi prince Abdel Mohsen Bin Walid Bin Abdulaziz and four others were detained while allegedly 'attempting to smuggle about two tons of pills and some cocaine,' a security source said.

    The banned drug involved is consumed mainly in the Middle East and has reportedly been widely used by fighters in Syria.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-history.html


    Another article puts it like this:

    Turkish police seized more than 10 million tablets in November, the largest amphetamine bust in the nation’s history. Saudi Prince Abdel Mohsen bin Walid bin Abdulaziz and four others were detained in Lebanon with two tons of Captagon pills late last year.

    Mr Douglas said amphetamines had been used by both Germany and Japan during war. Army commanders used it to keep their troops motivated and focused.

    “It will keep you going, compel you to be more aggressive, to fight longer,” he said.

    Mr Douglas said the Egyptian office of United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime reported that IS was making money through the trafficking of amphetamines, and there had been a number of large seizures.

    One captured IS fighter declared: “They gave us drugs, hallucinogenic pills that would make you go to battle not caring if you’d live or die.”
    http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2016/...uper-soldiers/


    I don't think WW3 is going to be allowed to develop, because just like there is no parity between Saudi Arabia and Yemen by themselves, there is also no parity between a coalition of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Israel and Turkey, against the US, Russia, Iran, and China (yes, China and Iran have also sent military support to Syria). It's also doubtful who Egypt would actually side with in such a confrontation, not like they'd be the determining factor anyway. It's just a matter of time before the CIA and their buddies in the Middle East get strangled by the coalition that's working around them.

    Europe is in a very dangerous position. They're caught between different factions just like the US is, and on top of that they have all of these Muslim fundamentalists pouring across their borders from war zones in Syria and Libya. They're going to be dealing with the ramifications of that for years just because they're too politically correct to have the guts to send them all back where they came from.

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