Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 85

Thread: Sim Theory - We May Actually Be In The Matrix (2016)

  1. #31
    Senior Member lift the veil's Avatar
    Join Date
    15th May 2014
    Posts
    760
    Thanks
    2,438
    Thanked 3,394 Times in 625 Posts

    Top Scientists Weigh In On Whether We All Live In A Hologram



    Link to livestream of debate http://www.amnh.org/2016-asimov-debate

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0a06d5806e344

    Our universe certainly seems real, but in recent years, a growing number of scientists have begun to wonder if it’s all just a sophisticated simulation. Are we and everything around us nothing more than points of data in some sort of cosmic hologram?

    A group of celebrated scientists, including Neil deGrasse Tyson, will sit down on Tuesday for a serious discussion of what may sound more like a sci-fi movie plot than reality.

    The event at New York City’s American Museum of Natural History starts at 7 p.m. Eastern time. You can watch it live in the video above.

    Tyson will be joined by Lisa Randall, a theoretical physicist at Harvard University; Max Tegmark, a cosmologist at Massachusetts Institute of Technology; David Chalmers, a professor of philosophy at New York University; Zohreh Davoudi, a theoretical physicist at MIT; and James Gates, a theoretical physicist at the University of Maryland.

    The event is part of the museum’s Isaac Asimov Memorial Debate series, which is held each year to commemorate the life of the iconic science fiction author.

    It promises to be a lively discussion — or maybe it will just seem that way

  2. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to lift the veil For This Useful Post:

    Dreamtimer (5th April 2016), Joanna (6th April 2016), pointessa (20th April 2016), Sammy (16th April 2016)

  3. #32
    Senior Member Joanna's Avatar
    Join Date
    23rd April 2015
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia.
    Posts
    628
    Thanks
    2,858
    Thanked 2,688 Times in 607 Posts
    Quote Originally posted by lcam88 View Post
    To then suppose we exist in a Matrix, a holographic construct, especially while the movie "The Matrix" is in context, suggests that an artificiality or superficiality is present. Would you care to elaborate or comment on that?

    To preface one type of "superficiality" notable in the construct: GMO's are food like substances; it is a perfectly valid to suggest that GMO foods are misaligned energetically. Is it a valid analogy to suppose that such a misalignment is a larger deviation from truth than "earth normal"?
    Well, that would depend on what your prime sense/perception of value is within the construct. If your value is Life, integrity of life - the integrity and inherent worth of the energy itself that is changing its form representations within the simulation (which could indeed be vastly multi-layered), valuing that energy within your form and all form appearances - then you would be inclined to prefer and be drawn toward that which supports the integrity of life, no matter what its 'form appearances'....rather than that which depletes or damages it, such as GM mono-crops that are limiting biodiversity, or preferring a natural nutritious sweetener like stevia rather than a synthetic sweetener like aspartame, that is potentially carcinogenic, among other things....

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Joanna For This Useful Post:

    lcam88 (6th April 2016), pointessa (20th April 2016), Sammy (16th April 2016)

  5. #33
    Senior Member United States TimeSensitive's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th May 2015
    Location
    Sarasota
    Posts
    40
    Thanks
    402
    Thanked 258 Times in 39 Posts
    Is there a repeat of this somewhere? I didn't get to see it last night.
    ᑭᘮᖇᔕᘎᓰﬡᘐ ᙢᎩ ᔕᗢᘎᒪ'S ᖺᗝᙢᙓ

  6. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    10th June 2015
    Posts
    1,010
    Thanks
    2,129
    Thanked 3,246 Times in 920 Posts
    Quote Originally posted by Joanna View Post
    Well, that would depend on what your prime sense/perception of value is within the construct. If your value is Life, integrity of life - the integrity and inherent worth of the energy itself that is changing its form representations within the simulation (which could indeed be vastly multi-layered), valuing that energy within your form and all form appearances - then you would be inclined to prefer and be drawn toward that which supports the integrity of life, no matter what its 'form appearances'....rather than that which depletes or damages it, such as GM mono-crops that are limiting biodiversity, or preferring a natural nutritious sweetener like stevia rather than a synthetic sweetener like aspartame, that is potentially carcinogenic, among other things....
    Yes Joanna, however it is important to remember that life is more than survival. It is not good enough to live in a cage, we want freedom, we want diversity and joy and sadness and bliss and everything there is to experience.

    Maybe it is about growth, all living things growing, right? About prospering? Perhaps fundamentally even about existing forever in as many forms as possible?

    And as things fall into an ever more stable equilibrium, they become more and more aligned with a "truth" that is their persistent symbiotic/interdependent co-existence. Is there really a different sense/perception of value within any construct that is worth considering?

    GMO's are like a mortal construct of life that are misaligned with the other forms. It kills insects that ordinarily may feed on them, or the modification kills its descendants, or in some other way it disrupts, blocks or deviates from the "prime sense/perception" of value I have elaborated above.

    Can that fit within the definition you gave earlier for a later understanding of maya, a separation from truth? And if so, are there other such deviations worth mentioning?
    Last edited by lcam88, 6th April 2016 at 18:31. Reason: snipped

  7. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to lcam88 For This Useful Post:

    Bob (6th April 2016), heyokah (3rd May 2016), Joanna (13th April 2016), Sammy (16th April 2016)

  8. #35
    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th April 2015
    Location
    Patapsco Valley
    Posts
    9,320
    Thanks
    51,918
    Thanked 41,502 Times in 9,235 Posts
    Bob, looks like if you go the the Huff Post link it plays like a video. (I just started it) It's just a bit over two hours. Go to the 7min. mark.
    Last edited by Dreamtimer, 6th April 2016 at 17:04.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Dreamtimer For This Useful Post:

    TimeSensitive (13th April 2016)

  10. #36
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    10th June 2015
    Posts
    1,010
    Thanks
    2,129
    Thanked 3,246 Times in 920 Posts
    I think the following video shares another such great example, given by the guest, of a separation from truth in our society, specifically in the media.

    Pardon me if I'm off topic.

    Last edited by lcam88, 6th April 2016 at 19:26.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to lcam88 For This Useful Post:

    Joanna (13th April 2016)

  12. #37
    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th April 2015
    Location
    Patapsco Valley
    Posts
    9,320
    Thanks
    51,918
    Thanked 41,502 Times in 9,235 Posts
    So long ago... I don't think they really got John's genuine appeal, though the audience does. John's about America, not himself. The media was his foil and he was a comedian and satirist.

    (I'd rather not have had to watch Tucker again... )

    To remain on topic I'll just say that the real intelligence at the table was John's and the rest was a poor simulation. (imo)

    (They actually cut him off as soon as he said he wasn't there to be a comedian. The T man just kept interrupting.)
    Last edited by Dreamtimer, 6th April 2016 at 19:52.

  13. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dreamtimer For This Useful Post:

    Joanna (13th April 2016), lcam88 (6th April 2016)

  14. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    10th June 2015
    Posts
    1,010
    Thanks
    2,129
    Thanked 3,246 Times in 920 Posts
    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer
    To remain on topic I'll just say that the real intelligence at the table was John's and the rest was a poor simulation.
    Yes exactly. Also, Jon's direct and absolute honesty vs the hosts' who where very deceptive/evasive.

    No doubt that the media in general, misrepresenting issues in their attempts to manipulate their audience, is an equivalent form of dishonesty, especially when it isn't obvious and the audience accepts the signal.

    GMO's being dishonest to the purpose of nutrition/life is as the media [manipulations] are dishonest to their audience, both of which are "lower" than "earth normal" levels of honesty to life in general. [Where honesty and dishonesty refers to the level of separation from truth that Joanna mapped to a term => maya.]

    This understanding then begs the question of why it is important to now rename our realm/reality/life as being "in the matrix" especially in context of the matrix being a prison for survivors on the losing side of a war as elaborated in a movie?

    Thanks for the honest comment and elaboration Dreamtimer. <sigh of relief/> I am genuinely afraid I am still at risk of being unintelligible or at least un-understood.

  15. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to lcam88 For This Useful Post:

    Dreamtimer (7th April 2016), Joanna (13th April 2016)

  16. #39
    Senior Member Joanna's Avatar
    Join Date
    23rd April 2015
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia.
    Posts
    628
    Thanks
    2,858
    Thanked 2,688 Times in 607 Posts
    Quote Originally posted by lcam88 View Post
    Yes Joanna, however it is important to remember that life is more than survival. It is not good enough to live in a cage, we want freedom, we want diversity and joy and sadness and bliss and everything there is to experience.

    Maybe it is about growth, all living things growing, right? About prospering? Perhaps fundamentally even about existing forever in as many forms as possible?
    lcam, I totally agree. Life is really about thriving, not just surviving in a cage. Life as survival (survival of the fittest/competition/eat or be eaten) is an engineered condition, imo...for if you hold the premise that Life is infinite - that the energy within it just changes form but is itself eternal - then life is about unlimited, irrepressible, abundant, vitalized growth, expansion, in all 'levels' or layers of the simulation, in all circumstances.
    The tiny everyday miracle of a flower blooming from a crack between concrete slabs with hardly a drop of rain in its life shows us how Life is designed to thrive, even under the condition of survival.

    And as things fall into an ever more stable equilibrium, they become more and more aligned with a "truth" that is their persistent symbiotic/interdependent co-existence. Is there really a different sense/perception of value within any construct that is worth considering?

    There is, to those who value control and power. They don't want stable equilibrium, let alone harmony, which tends to raise reverence for the interdependent, interweaving co-existence. They want controlled chaos ie; perpetuating fear of annihilation, conflict, danger, so as to justify control - and have it acquiesced to.

    Can that fit within the definition you gave earlier for a later understanding of maya, a separation from truth? And if so, are there other such deviations worth mentioning?

    Actually, yes. There are other ancient concepts/perceptions that like 'maya', darkened over time.
    One of them is the concept of a 'Demiurge'.
    The Demiurge as the craftsman of living forms is intrinsically connected with Plato's Realm of perfect Ideas behind the 'simulation' of changing forms (as put forth in the OP vid). Plato first described the Demiurge in Timaeus as the craftsman of the universe ie; the active creative principle shaping energy as based on the forms or templates of the Realm of Ideas....and thus perceived as a benevolent, positive universal Creator.
    But later on, the Gnostics took a completely different view of the Demiurge as the ultimate evil, a malevolent being - because they viewed through dualism, opposing the material and non-material realms - with the non-material being 'good' and the material creation level, as 'evil', and as such, to be escaped from by certain practices and beliefs, into the goodness of the non-material realm....
    Much like the twist of maya, isn't it?
    Another such shift was that in the ancient Indo-Iranian perception of the multiple gods/angels/creator beings. In ancient Persian Zoroastrianism, the Ahura were seen as benevolent, loving beings, while the Divs were those who should not be heeded, as they would lead humans false. In India, in those early times of maya perceived as a magical creative power of the gods, the Sanskrit word for Ahura, which is Asura, were seen as high benevolent creators who brought the formless light of Parama Purusa into forms, and the devas (divs) were mischievous, sometimes malign beings to be avoided. Yet, congruent with the shift of the meaning of maya, into the entrapment of the realm of material illusions, the Asuras also shifted in meaning to be seen as demons, and the Devas became seen as the 'good gods'. A complete reversal...

    All of these shifts and reversals of perception in the ancient world (and the energies behind these shifts) have been instrumental in cementing the type of dualistic perspective and experience that seeks to maintain its dominance now - only the forms and terms have changed over time....

  17. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Joanna For This Useful Post:

    heyokah (3rd May 2016), lcam88 (13th April 2016), Maggie (16th April 2016), Sammy (16th April 2016)

  18. #40
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    10th June 2015
    Posts
    1,010
    Thanks
    2,129
    Thanked 3,246 Times in 920 Posts
    Joanna:

    Very interesting posting. It brings to my mind:

    What I'm understanding is metaphorically a "fall from innocence". In may ways the examples you give follow a similar pattern. Perhaps the pattern can be found in a love relationship between a man and woman.

    When they first meet and fall in love with each other they establish a beginning a moment of perfection where the glimmer in their eyes only sees those golden rays reflected from the face of the other. They certainly try to live that moment for as long as they can but eventually someone leaves the toothpaste tube open, or squeezes it in the middle. A moment where a fall from innocence occurs that tarnishes the golden, demanding a fix. The passage of time and the tit for tat cause and effect from subsequent investments in energy to maintain the golden surely follows.

    As years go by and the glimmer of gold has all but faded into memory they may look upon each other as familiar company, family and would have to find from within that which sustains their continuing love and when they pause to remember, the gold can still be seen.

    That perhaps is a best case scenario where two people grow old together.

    Perhaps a separation of truth happens when the golden is first tarnished upon discovery of the tooth paste tube. Perhaps that is just the inevitable. And perhaps...

    Another level of separation of truth, that is of a completely different nature from the discovery of each other as above, is when one deceives the other from the beginning. It can be argued that beauty (golden rays metaphor) is always an illusion, and so perhaps, that forcing oneself to behave or coexist in a way that requires constant attention to maintain the illusion is an example of such deception.

    For example, lets suppose that a man present himself as wealthier than he really is. From that point onwards the effort demanded by the ordinary passage of time as I elaborated above is divided with the requirement that he continues to maintain his initial deception of wealth.

    His personal energies are divided. The nature of separation of truth creates a type of "impedance" to the full flow of his energies as a result of a mismatch. Electrical engineering defines an electrical impedance as "the measure of the opposition that a circuit presents to a current when a voltage is applied."

    If part of his "force to gold" is diverted for a motive that is not about the common "golden rays", then obviously the gold should tarnish faster and more.

    If you consider the forces in opposition in these scenarios perhaps it is interesting to observe "the golden expectation" vs "the reality of man". Adding deception into the reality of man certainly must either be offset by a reduced golden expectation, or increased perfection in the application of the energies of man since deception is by its nature something that requires energy to maintain.

    In the reality of duality, as you mention it, there is always a vector that points towards an "absolute truth" and one that points away. Sometimes it may not be clear how and why, like hot and cold, but once you immerse yourself into the hot Arizona summer, hot is certainly in excess and is certainly less comfortable. That is the truth.

    To further that analogy I had mentioned GMOs. If you consider the expectation that food be nutrition for the body and soul of person who consumes it, the energetic misalignment genetically present in the GMO creates a similar type of balance upset. The GMO nature represents a deception in the very reason of the existence of food even if it be simple because it harms insects that may be a pest in our view. (Live vs Death duality). And perhaps because when we consume that food, we are left less nourished or tainted in some other way.

    I had shared a very very funny Jon Stewart video; If you consider the expectation that the media be honest about representations of our leaders, shows that are "knee-jerk reactionary commentary" that serve the purpose of manipulating the audience is also a deception to the very nature of genuine information.

    The depth to which declensions from absolute truth go would be the net sum of all the "negative" of the world combined as though they are vectors that subtract from the "golden".

    So it stand that if we can identify such declensions in our midst where we can then do something so that as individuals, and/or as a collective we move closer to the truth.

    In response to the GMO thing, we obviously would want to watch what we eat. In response to the Jon Stewart vid, maybe we just get rid of the TV, and/or maybe find new sources of information. Very obvious stuff...

    If indeed we exist in a Sim Theory type paradigm where there are similarities to the Matrix, it stands as perfectly reasonable to understand that it can be as real as we make it, and it can also be as artificial and non-substancial as we permit it. There would be absolutely no merit disregard it as a figment of the imagination or as something of no consequence unless that is how we feel about ourselves.

    If what I understand of "maya" as you are sharing the term having to do with a separation of truth, the equal flip side of that is having to do with defining our truth as something different from absolute truth. So here I am, identifying aspects of the way we define our truth that are oppositional to this notion of absolute truth I have in my imagination (mind).

    As far as we can create impedance matches between our truth and that absolute truth, we should see equal "opposition" between "ourselves" and "the reality" which in turn brings us closer to "unimpeded energy exchanges". IE more perfection in our energetic environment, presumably to the point where another abstraction of the matrix may naturally form "over" our presence. Perhaps that would be a stronger collective consciousness, perhaps it is something else, but certainly it is more than the Corporation.

    I'm examining this all merely because it can serve as a metric for establishing who we are and where we want to be going. Absent a metric, we are out there just floating by aimless perhaps.

    I think it might be helpful to identify "separations of truth" and how they can be addressed.

  19. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to lcam88 For This Useful Post:

    Joanna (14th April 2016), Sammy (16th April 2016)

  20. #41
    Senior Member Joanna's Avatar
    Join Date
    23rd April 2015
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia.
    Posts
    628
    Thanks
    2,858
    Thanked 2,688 Times in 607 Posts
    Quote Originally posted by lcam88 View Post
    Joanna:

    Very interesting posting. It brings to my mind:

    What I'm understanding is metaphorically a "fall from innocence". In may ways the examples you give follow a similar pattern. Perhaps the pattern can be found in a love relationship between a man and woman.

    When they first meet and fall in love with each other they establish a beginning a moment of perfection where the glimmer in their eyes only sees those golden rays reflected from the face of the other. They certainly try to live that moment for as long as they can but eventually someone leaves the toothpaste tube open, or squeezes it in the middle. A moment where a fall from innocence occurs that tarnishes the golden, demanding a fix. The passage of time and the tit for tat cause and effect from subsequent investments in energy to maintain the golden surely follows.

    As years go by and the glimmer of gold has all but faded into memory they may look upon each other as familiar company, family and would have to find from within that which sustains their continuing love and when they pause to remember, the gold can still be seen.

    That perhaps is a best case scenario where two people grow old together.

    Perhaps a separation of truth happens when the golden is first tarnished upon discovery of the tooth paste tube. Perhaps that is just the inevitable. And perhaps...

    Another level of separation of truth, that is of a completely different nature from the discovery of each other as above, is when one deceives the other from the beginning. It can be argued that beauty (golden rays metaphor) is always an illusion, and so perhaps, that forcing oneself to behave or coexist in a way that requires constant attention to maintain the illusion is an example of such deception.

    For example, lets suppose that a man present himself as wealthier than he really is. From that point onwards the effort demanded by the ordinary passage of time as I elaborated above is divided with the requirement that he continues to maintain his initial deception of wealth.

    His personal energies are divided. The nature of separation of truth creates a type of "impedance" to the full flow of his energies as a result of a mismatch. Electrical engineering defines an electrical impedance as "the measure of the opposition that a circuit presents to a current when a voltage is applied."

    If part of his "force to gold" is diverted for a motive that is not about the common "golden rays", then obviously the gold should tarnish faster and more.

    If you consider the forces in opposition in these scenarios perhaps it is interesting to observe "the golden expectation" vs "the reality of man". Adding deception into the reality of man certainly must either be offset by a reduced golden expectation, or increased perfection in the application of the energies of man since deception is by its nature something that requires energy to maintain.

    In the reality of duality, as you mention it, there is always a vector that points towards an "absolute truth" and one that points away. Sometimes it may not be clear how and why, like hot and cold, but once you immerse yourself into the hot Arizona summer, hot is certainly in excess and is certainly less comfortable. That is the truth.

    To further that analogy I had mentioned GMOs. If you consider the expectation that food be nutrition for the body and soul of person who consumes it, the energetic misalignment genetically present in the GMO creates a similar type of balance upset. The GMO nature represents a deception in the very reason of the existence of food even if it be simple because it harms insects that may be a pest in our view. (Live vs Death duality). And perhaps because when we consume that food, we are left less nourished or tainted in some other way.

    I had shared a very very funny Jon Stewart video; If you consider the expectation that the media be honest about representations of our leaders, shows that are "knee-jerk reactionary commentary" that serve the purpose of manipulating the audience is also a deception to the very nature of genuine information.

    The depth to which declensions from absolute truth go would be the net sum of all the "negative" of the world combined as though they are vectors that subtract from the "golden".

    So it stand that if we can identify such declensions in our midst where we can then do something so that as individuals, and/or as a collective we move closer to the truth.

    In response to the GMO thing, we obviously would want to watch what we eat. In response to the Jon Stewart vid, maybe we just get rid of the TV, and/or maybe find new sources of information. Very obvious stuff...

    If indeed we exist in a Sim Theory type paradigm where there are similarities to the Matrix, it stands as perfectly reasonable to understand that it can be as real as we make it, and it can also be as artificial and non-substancial as we permit it. There would be absolutely no merit disregard it as a figment of the imagination or as something of no consequence unless that is how we feel about ourselves.

    If what I understand of "maya" as you are sharing the term having to do with a separation of truth, the equal flip side of that is having to do with defining our truth as something different from absolute truth. So here I am, identifying aspects of the way we define our truth that are oppositional to this notion of absolute truth I have in my imagination (mind).

    As far as we can create impedance matches between our truth and that absolute truth, we should see equal "opposition" between "ourselves" and "the reality" which in turn brings us closer to "unimpeded energy exchanges". IE more perfection in our energetic environment, presumably to the point where another abstraction of the matrix may naturally form "over" our presence. Perhaps that would be a stronger collective consciousness, perhaps it is something else, but certainly it is more than the Corporation.

    I'm examining this all merely because it can serve as a metric for establishing who we are and where we want to be going. Absent a metric, we are out there just floating by aimless perhaps.

    I think it might be helpful to identify "separations of truth" and how they can be addressed.
    Oh, there's a lot to respond to here!
    For the moment, I'd just like to say - about that open toothpaste tube, squeezed in the middle, which began the tarnishing of the 'golden ray' state of love.....was the 'fall' from perfection ie; diminishing of love, in the actual left-open toothpaste tube, with its squeezed middle, or did the diminishing of that love come from the reaction to a perceived imperfection?
    For another person, viewing through a different perspective, might have found the no longer pristine, perfectionistic toothpaste tube somehow endearing. They might have smiled at how the tube now had a pleasant curve through the middle, that only their lover could have put there just so.

    The reaction of offense and judgement begins the dimming of the golden ray, yes, because it leaves the innocence of being, of trusting what is, and not needing to control or force conformity (of perfection).
    Loss of innocence leads to loss of inner sense, imo (I'm not talking about loss of innocence in the religious sexual way, just for clarification...but in how we respond to life, and what perspective we create from). When the inner sense is diminished, people lose their natural ability to recognize the energies imbuing, or behind, the forms moving within the simulation ie; is it a god, a demon, an AI, a programme, Prime Creator itself? A benevolent Platonic demiurge...or a malevolent Gnostic one? A random anomaly? And so forth....

    Returning to the Op vid, and their equation of Plato's Ideas with the proving of life as a (generated) simulation. Actually, it would be more accurate to describe Plato's Ideas as they are expressed in all forms in the material level as an emulation, not a simulation. Feel the difference?
    A simulation presupposes a certain level or kind of deception, or at least, illusion, an illusory, ephemeral state.
    But an emulation is closer to Plato's precept, that all that exists in form is a material elaboration (in countless variations) on an Idea, which he would term 'perfect' (the perfect chair, the perfect sphere etc). Not therefore intrinsically deceiving, false or artificial, but more understood as 'variations on a theme'. A Neoplatonist would not identify themselves/ their inner reality with the variations as 'perfect Truth', but they wouldn't (and didn't) go down the Gnostic & others' road of seeing the variations as evil...and originating from an evil entity that robbed life/the world of its innocence....

    Your toothpaste tube analogy - the dimming of Love through a reaction to perceived loss of perfection - has its converse in the Raku potters of Japan, a rather perfectionist society, who mould a 'perfect pot' and then deliberately put into it a single flaw, in an act of appreciation of human fallibility...instead of fear of it, and the desire to control.

  21. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Joanna For This Useful Post:

    lcam88 (16th April 2016), pointessa (20th April 2016), Sammy (16th April 2016)

  22. #42
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    10th June 2015
    Posts
    1,010
    Thanks
    2,129
    Thanked 3,246 Times in 920 Posts
    Quote Originally posted by Joanna View Post
    Oh, there's a lot to respond to here!
    For the moment, I'd just like to say - about that open toothpaste tube, squeezed in the middle, which began the tarnishing of the 'golden ray' state of love.....was the 'fall' from perfection ie; diminishing of love, in the actual left-open toothpaste tube, with its squeezed middle, or did the diminishing of that love come from the reaction to a perceived imperfection?

    For another person, viewing through a different perspective, might have found the no longer pristine, perfectionistic toothpaste tube somehow endearing. They might have smiled at how the tube now had a pleasant curve through the middle, that only their lover could have put there just so.
    Yes. Indeed. If both likes the middle squeeze, it wouldn't be a tarnishing at all. I suppose I meant it to be the most mild form of tarnishing possible; a car wreak would be another example of a tarnish to the golden. But regardless, the point is that effort is required to permit the golden to persist. For those of us who maintain that golden, the efforts are well worth the results.

    Quote Originally posted by Joanna View Post
    The reaction of offense and judgement begins the dimming of the golden ray, yes, because it leaves the innocence of being, of trusting what is, and not needing to control or force conformity (of perfection).
    Loss of innocence leads to loss of inner sense, imo (I'm not talking about loss of innocence in the religious sexual way, just for clarification...but in how we respond to life, and what perspective we create from). When the inner sense is diminished, people lose their natural ability to recognize the energies imbuing, or behind, the forms moving within the simulation ie; is it a god, a demon, an AI, a programme, Prime Creator itself? A benevolent Platonic demiurge...or a malevolent Gnostic one? A random anomaly? And so forth....
    Yes. Offense could indeed by a negative if perceived that way; it causes the need for defense, and subsequently the "golden efforts" are sapped to maintain a duality that works towards each perspective, and not truth itself.

    Quote Originally posted by Joanna View Post
    Returning to the Op vid, and their equation of Plato's Ideas with the proving of life as a (generated) simulation. Actually, it would be more accurate to describe Plato's Ideas as they are expressed in all forms in the material level as an emulation, not a simulation. Feel the difference?
    Yes and No Joanna. The breakdown is what references from our lives we are associating with the very words used. <= that is as good an analogy for the emulation/simulation as any other.

    Without reference it is very very difficult to understand or even know ( in the sense of rationalizing, not "just knowing"). The concept "nothing" for example, requires that we conceptualize something, then induce its absence for the concluding notion of "nothing". But that strategy of rationalizing nothing can be argued to be flawed because in and of itself, it is still something. A something required as reference that comes from our experience.

    But yes, I feel the difference because of the way you said it.
    Quote Originally posted by Joanna View Post
    A simulation presupposes a certain level or kind of deception, or at least, illusion, an illusory, ephemeral state.
    But an emulation is closer to Plato's precept, that all that exists in form is a material elaboration (in countless variations) on an Idea, which he would term 'perfect' (the perfect chair, the perfect sphere etc). Not therefore intrinsically deceiving, false or artificial, but more understood as 'variations on a theme'. A Neoplatonist would not identify themselves/ their inner reality with the variations as 'perfect Truth', but they wouldn't (and didn't) go down the Gnostic & others' road of seeing the variations as evil...and originating from an evil entity that robbed life/the world of its innocence....
    OK, eloquently stated.

    Identification of self, inner reality with 'perfect Truth': That sounds like trying to be celestially aligned. Telestai.

    Neoplatonism aside, disregarding alignment from truth is a dangerous way; embracing the illusion, proposing deceptions... for what? Ideas of perfect form? If indeed it was understood that the emulation/simulation is a manifestation of form, form can take any shape indeed. How can you decide which form is perfect? Your good sense of preference? So then, GMO's are good because we can appear to feed more from the plant. It would seem indeed the case is that such a view has lost sight of "the golden" or true north?

    Another such "neoplatonist" type idea is that when Moses returned from Mt Sinai. He returned with a message from God to his disciples to follow some orientation described as commandments. The idea is that the disciples could put aside their values (perhaps an orientation to perfect truth vis-a-vee their application of good judgement), and start following another set of values decided to be "perfect" (perhaps examples of perfect forms). Perhaps the separation from truth there is fundamentally deciding that perfect is something "outside", rather than "inside". If that conjecture is correct, you can understand why neoplatonism has survived the ages that had seen so much of human history censored [as Sylvie's Survivor series Ellen has been sharing is suggesting].
    Quote Originally posted by Joanna View Post
    Your toothpaste tube analogy - the dimming of Love through a reaction to perceived loss of perfection - has its converse in the Raku potters of Japan, a rather perfectionist society, who mould a 'perfect pot' and then deliberately put into it a single flaw, in an act of appreciation of human fallibility...instead of fear of it, and the desire to control.
    That is beautiful.

    Maybe the loss of perfection by the first squeeze of the toothpaste tube, in a similar light, is simply a metaphor of human fallibility too? That our efforts from then on is to ever work to "fix" that instead of fear or try to control it.

    Indeed having your imperfection out there so that it may be seen is not a demonstration of fear of it, or desire to control it, but it is an acknowledgment that something does require attention.

    ADDENDUM (I'll make it short)

    The aspect of "fall from innocence" that is important, whether in the religious context or the context of "tarnishing of the golden", is simply that somethings can never return to the prestine state that it was.

    Can't unbreak an egg.

    Once you curse at your neighbor, forever will those words have been said and there is no undoing it.

    Similar to opening "Pandora's Box" in that the box can never be closed to contain what was let out.

    Once we start seeing flaws in others around us, our reaction to their presence cannot return to what it was priorly...

    Once the bio-life in a lake has been damaged by pollution, it can never return to the same point, but it can recover to a new state that is equally thriving of life even while the scars remain.

    Perhaps even you could say that once a celestial alignment is lost, you can never find it again. You are left ever searching for a new alignment that may never be as complete. Not to say it is impossible.

    It is impossible until we get on track to making it possible. <smile/>
    Last edited by lcam88, 14th April 2016 at 18:41. Reason: addendum

  23. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to lcam88 For This Useful Post:

    Joanna (18th April 2016), pointessa (20th April 2016), Sammy (16th April 2016)

  24. #43
    Permanently Banned
    Join Date
    8th November 2015
    Posts
    408
    Thanks
    63
    Thanked 1,073 Times in 359 Posts
    Only those who are fully asleep love the Matrix.

  25. The Following User Says Thank You to scibuster For This Useful Post:

    pointessa (20th April 2016)

  26. #44
    Retired Member United States
    Join Date
    29th January 2015
    Location
    Dallas, Texas USA
    Posts
    1,158
    Thanks
    4,681
    Thanked 5,887 Times in 1,143 Posts
    The "Absolute" which then finds a way to manifest in form sets up relativity and has entered a simulation by that very action.

    From the perspective of the Absolute, this is all simulation and in every way "it" arises.

  27. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Sammy For This Useful Post:

    Aragorn (16th April 2016), Joanna (18th April 2016), pointessa (20th April 2016)

  28. #45
    Retired Member United States
    Join Date
    8th November 2015
    Posts
    1,264
    Thanks
    1,691
    Thanked 7,654 Times in 1,264 Posts
    double posted....
    Last edited by Maggie, 17th April 2016 at 18:28.

  29. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Maggie For This Useful Post:

    Joanna (18th April 2016), modwiz (16th April 2016), Sammy (16th April 2016)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •