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Thread: Trump: Illusion, Mist and Bought?

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    Senior Member jimmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by bsbray View Post
    ... they're still not sure if they should even back their own front-runner, and there's been talk of a split in the party...
    if you haven't heard, the RNC elites have several plans to trump Trump at the convention. they want him out.

    both parties are terrified of him.

    just for starters, that works for me and why I back Trump.

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    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...misstatements/

    2015 Lie of the Year: the campaign misstatements of Donald Trump

    By Angie Drobnic Holan, Linda Qiu on Monday, December 21st, 2015 at 11:25 a.m.

    http://launch.newsinc.com/share.html...deoId=30096929

    PolitiFact designates the many campaign misstatements of Donald Trump as our 2015 Lie of the Year.
    It’s the trope on Trump: He’s authentic, a straight-talker, less scripted than traditional politicians. That’s because Donald Trump doesn’t let facts slow him down. Bending the truth or being unhampered by accuracy is a strategy he has followed for years.


    "People may not always think big themselves, but they can still get very excited by those who do. That's why a little hyperbole never hurts," Trump wrote in his 1987 best-seller The Art of the Deal. "People want to believe that something is the biggest and the greatest and the most spectacular. I call it truthful hyperbole. It's an innocent form of exaggeration — and a very effective form of promotion."

    That philosophy guided Trump in luxury real estate and reality television. This year he brought it to the world of presidential politics.

    Trump has "perfected the outrageous untruth as a campaign tool," said Michael LaBossiere, a philosophy professor at Florida A&M University who studies theories of knowledge. "He makes a clearly false or even absurdly false claim, which draws the attention of the media. He then rides that wave until it comes time to call up another one."

    PolitiFact has been documenting Trump’s statements on our Truth-O-Meter, where we’ve rated 76 percent of them Mostly False, False or Pants on Fire, out of 77 statements checked. No other politician has as many statements rated so far down on the dial.


    In considering our annual Lie of the Year, we found our only real contenders were Trump’s -- his various statements also led our Readers’ Poll. But it was hard to single one out from the others. So we have rolled them into one big trophy.


    To the candidate who says he’s all about winning, PolitiFact designates the many campaign misstatements of Donald Trump as our 2015 Lie of the Year.

    When it comes to inaccurate statements, the Donald was on fire:

    • "I watched when the World Trade Center came tumbling down," he said at a Nov. 21 rally in Birmingham, Ala. "And I watched in Jersey City, N.J., where thousands and thousands of people were cheering as that building was coming down. Thousands of people were cheering." Pants on Fire. There is no video of thousands of people in Jersey City cheering. Weeks later, Trump continues to stand by his claim but has not been able to point to evidence to back it up. Public safety officials on the ground in New Jersey say it never happened.

    • "The Mexican government ... they send the bad ones over." Pants on Fire. There’s no evidence to show the Mexican government encourages criminals to cross the border. Most illegal immigration comes from people seeking work. Recent estimates show illegal immigration from Mexico dropped off dramatically during the recession and has remained low.

    • "Whites killed by whites — 16%. Whites killed by blacks — 81%," said an image he shared on Twitter. Pants on Fire. Most people are killed by someone they know, and someone of the same race. The correct number for whites killed by whites was 82 percent in 2014, while the number of whites killed by blacks was 15 percent.

    When Bill O’Reilly of Fox News challenged Trump’s tweet of inaccurate murder rates, Trump suggested being accurate wasn’t so important: "Hey, Bill, Bill, am I gonna check every statistic? I get millions and millions of people ... @RealDonaldTrump, by the way."

    Trump hasn’t apologized or backtracked on his statements. Instead, when challenged, he offers flimsy explanations and suggests he shouldn’t be held accountable -- or simply insists he’s right.

    "People maybe call me out, but they turn out to be wrong, also," he said in an interview Sunday with George Stephanopoulos. "And many of the things I've said -- and I think just about all of them -- they may have been controversial at one point, George, but they're not controversial in the end, because people start to say, you know, Trump's actually right."

    From the get-go

    Our first fact-check of Trump was in 2011, when he was toying with a 2012 White House bid and giving support to those who said President Barack Obama might not have been born in the United States. Trump claimed that people who went to school with Obama "never saw him." We rated that Pants on Fire, because many journalists had found and interviewed Obama’s college friends.

    We fact-checked Trump 13 more times before his 2016 bid, awarding him a couple more Pants on Fire and False ratings.

    When Trump declared his candidacy on June 16, 2015, PolitiFact looked at five statements from his announcement speech. All of them were inaccurate.

    Since then, Trump’s misstatements have had range and diversity.

    He talked about foreign policy: "If you're from Syria and you're a Christian, you cannot come into this country, and they're the ones that are being decimated. If you are Islamic ... it's hard to believe, you can come in so easily," Trump said in a speech in Las Vegas on July 11. "In fact, it's one of our main groups of people that are coming in."

    This is wrong on its face -- Syrian Christians have been admitted as refugees in recent months. There’s nothing in U.S. law or regulation that discriminates against Christian refugees. We rated the claim False.

    He tangled with Fox News’ Megyn Kelly at the first Republican debate on Aug. 6, when she challenged him with how he talks about women. "You’ve called women you don’t like ‘fat pigs,’ ‘dogs,’ ‘slobs,’ and ‘disgusting animals,’ " Kelly said. "Your Twitter account has several disparaging comments about women’s looks. You once told a contestant on The Celebrity Apprentice it would be a ‘pretty picture’ to see her on her knees. Does that sound to you like the temperament of a man we should elect as president? And how will you answer the charge from Hillary Clinton, who was likely to be the Democratic nominee, that you are part of the 'war on women'?"

    Trump dismissed her question, and later said its premise was wrong. "Well, some of the things that she said, I didn't say, okay?" Trump said when asked about it by Chuck Todd on Meet the Press. "And she went through a whole list. And this is a hell of a first question, by the way."

    Actually, Trump said exactly what Kelly mentioned, and it’s clearly documented. We rated his denial False.

    A few weeks later, he got his facts wrong on economic policy. "Look, we’re the most highly taxed nation in the world — that’s why taxes have to go down, business has to come back, jobs have to be back," he said in an Aug. 24 interview on Fox News. But depending on the measurement you use on taxation, the United States is either in the middle of the pack or on the lighter end when compared with other advanced industrialized nations. We rated his claim False.

    The debate over Trump-speak

    Initially, Trump’s bombast was ridiculed as the stuff of entertainment. But as his status as a GOP presidential frontrunner took greater hold, the criticism has become more serious.

    "Some of Trump’s untrue claims fall into the harmful category," said LaBossiere of Florida A&M University. "His claim about thousands of people celebrating on 9/11 feeds into fear, racism and religious intolerance."

    Russell Moore, a prominent conservative evangelical leader with the Southern Baptist Convention, has called Trump’s proposals reckless, demagogic and divisive. Moore wrote in a New York Times column that Trump’s rhetoric "preys on turning economic insecurity into ugly ‘us versus them’ identity politics."

    A growing percentage of the American electorate is nonwhite, and Republicans are fighting to capture part of that vote. Trump’s comments don’t help those efforts, said Daniel Garza, executive director of the Libre Initiative, a group funded by the billionaire Koch brothers that aims to promote conservative values among Latino voters.

    "He’s doing miserably with Latino voters because his campaign narrative isn’t inclusive. You’re seeing Latino voters distancing themselves from his candidacy," Garza said, calling Trump’s rhetoric on immigration "unproductive."

    Trump’s recent proposal to ban all Muslims from entering the United States has tipped party leaders and GOP candidates toward harsher criticism.

    At a debate last week in Las Vegas, Jeb Bush went after Trump directly: "So Donald, you know, is great at the one-liners, but he's a chaos candidate. And he'd be a chaos president. He would not be the commander-in-chief we need to keep our country safe."

    Trump’s response was to mock Bush for being behind in the polls: "Jeb doesn't really believe I'm unhinged. He said that very simply because he has failed in this campaign. It's been a total disaster."

    Republican strategist Rick Wilson said the party is right to worry about Trump’s rhetoric, because it’s "highly negative, deeply pessimistic, and profoundly nasty." Trump’s many misstatements reduce Republican credibility across the board, he said.

    Some groups are beginning to spend money attacking Trump. A super PAC supporting Ohio Gov. John Kasich, a Republican rival, has run a series of attack ads against Trump. The anti-tax advocacy group Club for Growth spent $1 million in the fall running 30-second spots in Iowa slamming Trump’s support for liberal policies.

    In what has become his standard response, Trump punched back, mocking Kasich’s small crowds and calling the Club for Growth "pathetic" on Twitter. For the record, out of the one True and five Mostly True ratings Trump has logged, three were attacks on rival Republican candidates who challenged him. (Another two came before Trump announced he was running for president.)

    Though his 9/11 claim and crime statistic retweet were widely reported on, many of Trump’s other misstatements got lost in the fray. Here are three others you probably haven’t heard of:

    • June 16: "The last quarter, it was just announced, our gross domestic product … was below zero. Who ever heard of this? It’s never below zero." Pants on Fire. The gross domestic product was not "zero," and the growth in the gross domestic product has been below zero 42 times over 68 years.

    • Sept. 28: The unemployment rate may be as high as "42 percent." Pants on Fire. The highest alternative unemployment-rate measure we could come up with that had any credibility was 14.8 percent.

    • Nov. 17: The federal government is sending Syrian refugees to states with governors who are "Republicans, not to the Democrats." Pants on Fire. Refugees are in fact sent to states with Democratic governors.

    Trump’s poll position

    Norman Ornstein, a scholar at the conservative American Enterprise Institute, sees a couple of forces that have been at play for years when it comes to Trump: the desensitization to inflammatory rhetoric, the assault on science and expertise, and the increasing reliance on partisan media.

    "Trump came into an environment that was ripe for bombastic, inflammatory, outrageous statements without having to suffer the consequences," Ornstein said.

    Amos Kiewe, a professor of communications at Syracuse University, has written books about the rhetoric of Ronald Reagan and Franklin Delano Roosevelt. He said Trump relies on bluster to make points. "In a roundabout-way, it reminds me of rule No. 7 of persuasion," Kiewe said. "If the facts are on your side, then hammer the fact; if the opinions are on your side then, hammer the opinions; and if neither the facts nor the opinions are on your side, then hammer the table."

    As of Monday, Trump was in first place among Republican-leaning voters with 34 percent support, according to Real Clear Politics’ national polling average. Experts speculate that this is because Trump’s supporters, like their candidate, don’t mind the hyperbole.

    While that lead is outwardly impressive in 2015, it remains to be seen what will happen in 2016, when voters actually cast their ballots.

    Ornstein noted that even if 30 to 40 percent of Republican-leaning voters support Trump, that’s still a fraction of the overall electorate. And outside his party, Trump’s misstatements may come back to haunt him.

    "Clearly a lot of voters still care about the truth. What we don’t know at this point is what share that is. But I have to remain a skeptic that (Trump) can win the general election," Ornstein said. "In the general election, the loose connection that he, or many other candidates, have to the truth becomes a problem."

    Trump seems aware of this, as he writes in The Art of the Deal:

    "You can't con people, at least not for long. You can create excitement, you can do wonderful promotion and get all kinds of press, and you can throw in a little hyperbole. But if you don't deliver the goods, people will eventually catch on."
    Last edited by lift the veil, 18th March 2016 at 19:40.

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    David Cay Johnston 21 Questions Donald Trump Kickbacks Busting Unions, the Mob & Corporate Welfare


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    Life is an attitude.

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    jimmer, do you think Trump can win as something other than Republican? How do you think that would work? I don't see the two parties letting that happen. I don't see FEC reform on the horizon. It's controlled by them. Do you think there will be enough voters to overcome the blockade?

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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    jimmer, do you think Trump can win as something other than Republican? How do you think that would work? I don't see the two parties letting that happen. I don't see FEC reform on the horizon. It's controlled by them. Do you think there will be enough voters to overcome the blockade?
    I just read this article that after a running total of +$63 million attacks on Trump, the elites are beginning to realize Trump is inevitable,
    and will eventually back off. all the while, Trump has been taking names and numbers. they know that and they're getting nervous.
    the next step? line up with hat in hand and quietly look for forgiveness.

    Trump has put the elites on notice: investigate the FED, cut government down to size, WALL, cut the waste and cronyism, etc.
    that is why both sides have been out to get him.
    if elected, they will be praying they still have jobs and relevance...

    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/0...the-end-220953

    btw: you know this argument that Trump, with his water boarding statements, is criminal?

    well, it turns out that the geneva convention does not apply to terrorist. it's that simple.
    Trump is right, again.
    Last edited by jimmer, 18th March 2016 at 21:09.
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    jimmer, do you think Trump can win as something other than Republican? How do you think that would work? I don't see the two parties letting that happen. I don't see FEC reform on the horizon. It's controlled by them. Do you think there will be enough voters to overcome the blockade?
    The republicans would be committing suicide as a party if they tried to force Trump to run as anything other than republican, plus the other candidates have already publicly promised at debates to back Trump if he is indeed the nominee for the party. There is a huge amount of in-fighting going on but if it's really the Pentagon backing Trump, and if they are really serious about this, I think heads would be rolling behind the scenes before the traditional cabal would be allowed to fracture the party and let Hillary in.

    Ben Fulford doesn't always get it right, and he admits as much himself, but he's saying that Hillary will be indicted before the November elections and that Joe Biden might step in to take her place. Though Fulford get things wrong I've also seen him nail several things dead-on, in the weeks before they occur, such as a relations coup between the west and Saudi Arabia that occurred after the Charlie Hebdo shootings, and of course the Fukushima nuclear disaster he forecast back in 2008 and a lot of other things I've seen him predict accurately. I've been reading his weekly articles since around 2008, because I remember him talking about that nuclear disaster in Japan three years before it actually happened in 2011, and the general trend he's been "preaching" for all this time really does seem to be unfolding, just at a relative snail's pace so far, compared to how he hypes it up. I can understand the excitement though, because even though it seems like a snail's pace from how little changes in everyday life for us here in US at least, there are some major historical events happening all across the world right now.

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    Quote Originally posted by jimmer View Post
    I just read this article that after a running total of +$63 million attacks on Trump, the elites are beginning to realize Trump is inevitable,
    and will eventually back off. all the while, Trump has been taking names and numbers. they know that and they're getting nervous.
    the next step? line up with hat in hand and quietly look for forgiveness.
    He's already said he will prosecute Hillary when he gets into office too. So Hillary has more at stake than just running to hold an office. She's running to stay out of prison, which may not be possible for her anyway. She would have been indicted already if it weren't for the fact that the same president who appointed her in the first place, also appointed the US Attorney General. But the pressure is mounting there too. Subpoenas have been served and evidence is being meticulously collected as the last of the State Department emails to/from her private home server (aside from the 30,000+ "personal" emails she deleted) were released at the end of last month.

    But I think what you're saying is true and it's important. A lot of these puppets realize that if Trump gets into office, he's not playing with the traditional clubs, and Trump has a very good memory and apparently is capable of holding grudges. When Chris Christie started supporting Trump, Christie is a typical establishment politician. He must think he's going to get a cabinet position out of it or something, which who knows, maybe he will. Paul Ryan seems to be trying to walk the fine line between attacking Trump but befriending him as well. So the split is already deep within the party. That's what happens when politicians can be bought and sold, and they've been that way for years.

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    We can squirm around the definitions all we want. Torture only makes us look bad and makes our own soldiers and citizens more vulnerable. It's not a reliable source of information. It's not what America is supposed to be. It didn't make me proud and it didn't make us safer.

    I like to remember Newt Gingrich's advice. "Look at the record." Remember how much political capital his party got with that?

    Trump's record is of a man who puts himself first. He has a long record of not paying for things as has been shown even here in this thread. He will embrace power as wholeheartedly as one could imagine. He's not someone who would put America first. He's someone who would put himself first. Personal character matters.

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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    Trump's record is of a man who puts himself first. He has a long record of not paying for things as has been shown even here in this thread. He will embrace power as wholeheartedly as one could imagine. He's not someone who would put America first. He's someone who would put himself first. Personal character matters.
    I agree that Trump puts himself first, but I've already got the sense from him that he really does identify with the US as a nation. By that I mean that he seems to have embraced the US, and the interests and affairs of the US, almost as if it's an extension of his business, and ultimately an extension of his own ego. For example, he said (only half-jokingly, I believe) that when he builds the wall across the Mexican border, he's going to make sure it's a success because he's going to put his own name on it and call it the Trump Wall. He says these things half-jokingly but I think these kinds of comments are a sign that he really does at least identify with his own nation and looks at this as an opportunity to make an even bigger name for himself than he already has. Which of course presumes that he at least wants to try to enact some good policies and leave a good legacy. I really believe that this is also much more than we would ever get out of candidates like Bush or Clinton or Rubio. These people are internationalists and globalists who follow orders from the likes of the CFR.

    But even though I think ego is a big motivating factor for Trump, I still don't at all believe that he's a total free agent out there. Regardless of what he thinks about it himself, he admits to talking to people like an ex-DIA chief who has been very vocally criticizing the Obama administration in its role in the creation of ISIS, which is some heavy duty criticism coming from someone who occupied such a high position. That this connection even exists between Trump and military intelligence types is a strong indicator of where he is getting advice and guidance. Trump may be acting in his own self interest as far as he is concerned himself, but I think the Pentagon is more than happy to help him along, and has undoubtedly been pulling a lot of strings behind the scenes to make sure that the cabal does not shut him down in all of the typical ways (anybody ever looked at the evidence of vote rigging over the past 16+ years in these electronic voting machines?). But this seems to be a real and ongoing conflict of epic proportions within the political establishment, and not just another punch and judy show.


    Torture -- this is something I don't agree with and yes, it does not produce accurate information. Trump openly advocated it, then renounced that position. Frankly I think he was pandering to southern votes with those kinds of comments. Who knows what he actually thinks about it, but we already knew that it was happening under Bush and Obama and yet Guantanamo is still open. The only difference now is that Trump is talking about it a lot more frankly than the last two administrations (the Bush administration trying to make Guantanamo sound like a luxury resort), which is good because public discourse needs to be catalyzed on the subject. I say that Trump is pandering to southern voters because he's a New Yorker himself and has already sealed up the Yankee states, from the looks of it. In the New York pre-primary polls he's somewhere up around 65%, to Cruz being around 15-20%. He's focused on talking points that appeal to Americans in the south and southwest since the beginning of his campaign, the wall being chief amongst them, and he's had a lot of success with that.
    Last edited by bsbray, 18th March 2016 at 22:00.

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    "...he seems to have embraced the US, and the interests and affairs of the US, almost as if it's an extension of his business, and ultimately an extension of his own ego." That, I can see. I hope I don't see the national parallel of the business not working out and the ensuing threats of bankruptcy and the 'settlements'...

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    The US is already bankrupt, about $20 trillion in debt and paying everyone in IOU's.

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    say what you will, but Trump says what he believes in. He's not a phony, like most of 'em.

    as for being 'Trump first,' wouldn't it be nice to have a successful and strong person out there fighting for what we believe in?

    if I was a kid in school being bullied, I'd want a guy like Trump on my side, metaphorically speaking.

    as for advanced interrogation techniques used on terrorist: that's what led us to Bin Laden. it's a fact.

    if you have gained a media induced, jaundice view of Trump, I do hope you take the time to watch the video defense, posted above. (#64)
    in detail, this fellow stefan disassembles all (or most of) the media lies with documented facts. it's worth your time.

    kudos to bsbray for his most knowledgable opinions on this subject.
    and thanks for voicing your own informed opinions, in your words, saving us from endless postings of massive, unreadable, third party screeds and invectives.

    one thing's for sure, in any debate: in the end, the truth always wins.

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    Senior Member lift the veil's Avatar
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    So what does Trump believe? The title of this thread is, Trump: Illusion, Mist and Bought? This video showing him in his own words. The word, illusion, is very applicable here.

    Phony rings a bell too.


    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcUCLwWCihE


    I realize that reading actual articles from reputable news agencies and Pulizter Prize winning journalists regarding the truth of what Donald has been responsible for may be too hard for some people to read so hopefully the short videos above and below will be more doable for those to comprehend.
    Last edited by lift the veil, 18th March 2016 at 23:32.

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    Who is the real Trump??? More illusion perhaps? Pandering to get votes, now that he is running for President?


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