Additional views on the "technical" scheme of things - this thread was started in Ufology & Extraterrestrial Presence - "What UFOs Mean for Why People Don't Trust Science".
lcam88 and I were starting to get "technical" in that thread, so to allow the subject there to develop, and the technical stuff to develop here is thought to be useful for clarity purposes.
I'll repost my comments from where it gets "technical to here" (if the other posts from there, starting with post 11 onward, the dialog between lcam88 and myself it would be appreciated)..
=============================
From Post 10 by lcam88:
from Post 11 by Bob:[..]
The interest I do have stems from a man who created what he called an "areal navigator" in the late 1890's that was exhibited demonstrating the ability to hover, to accelerate rapidly to like 700 MPH in less than a second and then come to a standing hover and them come back. The operator, even though he was seated on the 3 or 4 ton steel apparatus unprotected from the elements, did not appear to feel the effects of acceleration or inertia and nor did he appear to feel the effects of air resistance as he and the navigator moved about.
A precise description was stated as: "He appeared as though he and the navigator where in a bubble that was separate from the elements" (paraphrased).
I think the bubble can best be termed as a reference frame. Supposedly, there are 3 axis of motion that are required to isolate a reference frame from another, the nominal earth reference frame for example. The "frame dragging" phenomena touched on in other threads here is interesting to consider with regards to reference frames; the Anderson Institute is researching some interesting things that I think are related. (perhaps reference perspective is another way to say it).
[..]
===========================So.. when common ground can be achieved between parties, maybe an interest point, then potentially a level of trust goes up. In the op's original article, there was hardly any trust between the parties, neither trusted the other to remove personal bias with respect to the subject and the others involved. Blocks towards any meaningful communications..
I suppose recognizing that group survival is a good thing may be useful for those who pay attention only to themselves. If all the levels of interactions (or lets say more than one) can be boosted, interchange can happen and maybe something useful can come out of it. (just stating the obvious here)..
Not to diverge from the thread's subject... but the reference frame situation was also reached by me, realizing what can happen field wise within said container, onto and within which, the reference frame altering "vibration" (for lack of better words, but using vibration to mean that which is periodically oscillating and contained within delimited boundaries, i.e. the "shell"), one then could be in a situation where the "outside world(s)" are not connected to the inside "world".. and within then "shielding" is effected by decoupling.
In the decoupling of "systems", one could then dial up the coordinates of a where and when and then collapsing the fields, end up there, where and when..
That could be setup to test obviously. Won't get into acceleration of rotating fields, but Tesla certainly was quite immersed in rotating fields
From Post 13 by lcam88:
=====================Yes!
That is actually quite a good description of frame mechanics as well, just shifting the subject matter. That type of coincidence (not to be confused with anything random) is very interesting/insightful for me.Quote Originally Posted by Bob
I suppose recognizing that group survival is a good thing may be useful for those who pay attention only to themselves. If all the levels of interactions (or lets say more than one) can be boosted, interchange can happen and maybe something useful can come out of it. (just stating the obvious here)..
... as though the location of a "system" is an attribute of the system itself, rather than an attribute of the environment.Quote Originally Posted by Bob
In the decoupling of "systems", one could then dial up the coordinates of a where and when and then collapsing the fields, end up there, where and when..
I haven't really studied Tesla's work, however, the AC induction motor is an excellent example of a rotating field being put to good use.
I have a plausible idea to share with respect to the efforts made by the science and government communities to avoid leveling with the UFO community:
Introducing the really far out...
Obviously I only get bits and pieces of the SIGINT but one thing that caught my attention that doesn't get so much mainstream gawkings that also seems perfectly plausible are that bits and pieces of crafts being make of 100% pure aluminum, or 100% layers of materials.
It is known that the aluminum processing methods used by humanity never produces 100% pure aluminum and no method is known that can. This obviously suggests something non-human behind the pieces to anyone willing to reason in the most superficial way.
But an examination a little deeper into the possibility of 100% pure aluminum comes up with another startling possibility, that the material could be "imagined" and manifested by mind. The very nature of the mind and how it can influence material is not a new concept, but it is indeed a concept that the scientific community absolutely rejects with all possible vigor employing any tool or method necessary.
This ideological principle is wrapped in an excuse of "repeatability" by anyone who should re-execute an experiment and by the most strict of notions that the experimenter must be a non-participant in the experiments executed. This has sort of surfaced to certain extend with the introduction of procedures at the CERN collider; the scientists must leave the room while experiments are running as there is suspicion that the desire to see certain results may influence what the lab ends up measuring.
I think this ideology is one of the cornerstones of a plan or objective to disempower humanity, specifically the human mind, is a pattern that repeats over and over again. Elen has shared videos where historical evidence is interpreted in a way as to hide the achievements of a lost culture that cannot be explained without appeals to what we now consider "extra-ordinary"... Great lengths have been taken to wipe out all evidence of what previously was... (I can go on and on about religious wars etc etc)
Anyway...
If there was a hint of evidence that UFOs are technological marvels that close the gap between mind and material [as the 100% pure material can suggests], I would not find it unreasonable for scientists to be making decision with the aforementioned ideological principle as their primary motivator.
Perhaps what is actually being hidden is the simple fact that producing 100% pure aluminum is not something so non-human after all? That evidences actually support this conclusion, and the efforts made to keep secrets and avoid answers are the continuation of efforts that started 2016 years ago?
And in reality, at first there was speculation about where the extra-terrestrials come from and what they wanted, then later we get the MILAB sensationalism where suddenly the people riding around in triangle craft are remnants/decendents of the Nazis. But nobody really stopped to consider that they may also be intra-terrestrials; that they are actually humans from say, 5000 years ago before the modern forces set out to exterminate the "survivors"...
That would put everything, history, science politics, into the spotlight of being questioned. It would undoubtedly challenge the order that we know, that our society is somehow modern, and that what we call progress is actual progress. That puts the idea of mutually assured destruction by nuclear devastation into a new light as a real threat, but not to Russia or countries in the normal political theater, but to those who are returning home.
Suddenly music on the far side of the moon makes sense!
Yeah, I really just made this stuff up as I type. I admit it. But it fits. Disclosure: ha! It is really just a Mexican stand off.
Item number 2, "what is life", as I posted above also hints at all of this, but that is actually rather a lengthy preponderance certainly off-topic on this thread.
From Post 16 by Bob:
With different levels of the phenomena - mechanical systems evoking frame isolation, controlled by evoking stored destinations - how the destinations are derived could be the results of thought/quantum targets..
Quantum zero point - a bit of a definition needed for the words there.. quantum as in pre-particle creation (where a focused coherent (vector aligning) thought pre-creates outcome).. zero point, the potential point for in which a directional outcome could appear... given a system oscillating through zero point, in zero actual zero, not just a mathematical arbitrary construct, but in the zero something will come out of it, predisposed to the programming going in (the vibration of all systems going in gets one to go out along the logical track lines..or simply the maintenance of "status quo" (that one really gets me going every time I see it..))
Here is where the quantum slides are happening - awfully strange to KNOW that reality is one way, that buildings places people and things are a certain known way and then on next viewing its all different...
A quantum zero point drive just is needed to setup the bubble, the isolation space, then program in enough similarity of a somewhere, somewhen reference system at some coordinate and one is there on collapsing.. and resuming normal zeropoint oscillation (systems vibrating in normal space reality)..
The slides tho.. what is evoking the slides? Enough people understanding the concept, or so much tech around starting to create coherent zero points?
So the two vehicle types predominantly for long range exploration. (or inner space explorations if the zero point window (bubble) is large and strong enough..
And the normal gravity field jump ships.. nothing for long range or time excursions, just playing with shaped gravity wells.
Sigint is available with the quantum zero point and selective "tuning"..
===========================
From Post 17 by Bob:
Loved researching Keely - the triplet was key ;p in evoking the disassociation of the atomic structure (not molecular water as folks looking at him tried to discredit), and interesting that Tesla also said the triplet was the key in energy release.. Good way to look mechanically at what is holding structure together to create longevity..
A trans galactic vehicle though would not need so much energy as is conventionally assumed.. people have been trained to think combustion engine.. not think of how time-space exists. Or thought interaction or thought creation..
===========================
From Post 18 by lcam88:
[..]
That is interesting.Quote Originally Posted by Dreamtimer
...testified to Congress about the Secret Space program talked about inertia being a different kind of force or energy that can be controlled such that sudden turns or accelerations wouldn't be a problem for the people in the crafts. I'm sorry, I can't recall the specifics right now.
An interesting coincidence: that the force of gravity is an equal opposite to the force of inertia. Ok that fits, if you imagine centripetal force being an equal opposite to centrifugal force of a spinning object. No problems. But inertia also applies an equal opposite force to any other force as well, say the force of a rocket booster, to a compressed spring being released...
Inertia can then be understood as resistance to a change of motion; said in more generic terms, the tendency of a neutral state to maintain state under external stress or force.
So how would an inertia dampener work? It would act in such a way that the external stress or force does not cause the neutral center to change state.
To understand what that means, think of a pendulum on a grandfather clock. As it swings, to and fro there is a moment where it is at bottom dead center, a neutral point in it's oscillation.
If you where to accelerate the clock vertically (by boosting it upwards, or dropping it) at any moment in the pendulums swing the force will alter the rhythm of the oscillations except when the pendulum is at bottom dead center. A moment of coincidence where any amount of vertical force does not change the energy state of that system.
=============================
From Post 19 from lcam88:
Rob:
All that quantum zero point mumbo jumbo requires references from quantum mechanics or relativity to mean anything. I think we are saying the same thing though... I used a pendulum to describe this same neutral state above writing to Dreamtimer.
To harness energy from an explosion (a decay moment) you depend on a force outside of energy dynamic to reconstitute the medium for another cycle of explosion. The internal combustion engine, for example, exhausts burnt air and relies on our natural environment to make with it what it can. The system incorporating this energy dynamic simply has no way to do anything with a medium that is not ready for a moment of explosion (in most cases) besides exhaust it away.
Harnessing energy from an implosion event (a creation moment) can count on the energy reflecting at the point of collapse (zero point) to open and expand the medium anew. The possibility for a cyclical type system that does not rely on external or outside forces for the energy dynamic can only reasonably be engineered from a system working on implosion principles.
Both of these types of energy system rely on the principles of inertia (the resistance to change of state) as part of its mode of operation. But with the explosion cycle the energetic medium is dispersed while in the implosion system, it is condensed/contained so that you may do with it what you may.
The bubble or reference frame is a moment where the oscillation of forces (inertia of expansion vs inertia of implosion) are such that the energy dynamic between the bubble and the external frame exchange energy via one or more wave node that defines the bubble. The node exists when a standing wave exists; and it restricts or controls direct exchanges of energy between the systems as per the phase of the surrounding nodes.
You can conceptualize a node as follows. If you are holding a cord, you can cause the cord to swing back and forth, If you double the frequency of your impulse, you can cause a node to appear in the wave of the cord. Here is a vid that explains it in a mathematical sense.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FoA1bBM10M
===========================
From Post 20 by Bob:
Good one !!!
it's not that complicated when folks can get into the experience of it. And science makes it oh so complicated..
Reduce to zero.
Hold all still.
Feedback
Reduce to zero.
Then interject while in zero the quantum alteration.
Love it good thread, good dialog.
(I've used that diagram and reiterated vesica piscis concepts during my old workshops, useful.. and showed what it felt like to be in that space.. ah those old days.. sigh)
(PS - if one absolutely needed it, the equations for "harmonics, nodes and overtones on a sphere" is what one would use to come up with the starting frequencies for the triplet, exciting a shell, like an egg (that aluminum goodie you mentioned..)
And
(Pss - I got to diggin around in the old field to the north of our place when I was five, that would be 1957.., that I found this teardrop of pure aluminum about over where that cigar shaped contraption(?) craft appeared. One can check the "historical records" of observed and retrieved artifacts from IFO's to note that the emission of odd metals from the crafts were reported at times.. Artifact? sorta showed me the phenom was more than just optical.. something the size of one's hand with outstretched fingers.
=============================
From Post 21 from lcam88:
ohhhh
Thanks for enabling Bob, I enjoyed our conversation too. Suddenly many of the question I had in mind sort of have answers.
The nodes...
Have you ever heard of an ion current? Can you imagine how it is different from a classical electric current?
I don't mean to go off topic here OP.
=============================
From Post 22 from Bob:
Kinda thought it would be fun to connect dots.. and speak in english terms and not geek speak.. I suppose a new thread could be started at the appropriate section and maybe some more folks would want to jump in..
I suppose I could ask have you heard of phonon waves in plasmas, all sort of interesting sounds have been reported coming out of that, the "trumpets" from the heavens attributed to the UFO's are a biggie.. Certainly has "science" scratching its head.. And the UFO folks looking for ET making the sounds..
Kinda reminds me of the sound of the old ocean liner horns, when they leave port.. but like hundreds of times louder and right above... Or the cannon shot sounds, the "skyquake". Lots of proton flows out there... solar wind can be notorious from high proton counts, and the UV flashes appear to evoke the electron currents.
I suppose when the two interact and collapse in the sky above, pbly in the F layers, maybe even the D layers depending.. The proton storms I think are part and parcel to the electron stripped particles of atomic hydrogen and resultant 'pink auroras'.. The result of the reverberation of the charges bouncing around up there, the ions, the electrons, and pressure waves are produced, audibly..
A lay person may just say - woah.. end days are here.. A "scientist" may say bogus hallucination.. A solar physicist may say, hmmm.. exactly what charges are incoming, what's the electron count, what's the proton count, and is there charge recombination happening? (and a loud boom or a hum, or a screech or strange whistle being heard, or the "ocean liner's horn" being sounded..
===========================
From Post 23 from lcam88
Yes!
I am not sure what a phonon wave in a plasma is, never heard of it. At the risk of going further off topic though, before examining "quanta of mechanical energies" in a plasma medium, it makes sense to elaborate what a plasma actually is.
From what you are saying above, we seem to be on very similar tracks. CME's do eject ions and that movement does constitute a current, indeed.
The only reason I brought up ion currents is because, apparently, John W Keely had ion currents flowing in a solid medium (wire) composed of Ag, Pt and Cu. The wire was "treated" in some way to permit the current to flow more freely (hyper-conductor?)
We where on about bubbles and apparently there are bubbles everywhere, at every level... The ion current he could apply to objects could be tuned in such a way that he could get them to float (anti-gravity, I hate that word, is there a better one?), or to become super heavy (extra-gravity, I just made that word up).
ELABORATION
I am unsure if indeed the "ions" where flowing in the classical sense of the word. It may be the case that the wire was channeling other types of force besides electricity.
The underlying principle is very fractal like, to elaborate, the energetic connection between the bubble surrounding the areal navigator was in tune with the apparatus causing the bubble, which in turn was in tune with what I understand to be phonon waves in the atomic medium of the apparatus, which is naturally in tune with the other higher levels.
In thesis, all of that could be tuned to Earth, in several ways, depending on what you want to do... If any part where out of tune, the navigator wouldn't function. And yes, the mind must also be in tune. That is the only reason that explains why nobody else could make his equipment work. <= that is a point conventional science is quite critical about FYI. A revisiting of the theme in science: trying to separate material and mind.
PS
Have you heard the phonon wave in plasma sound? Very curious!
=========================
From Post 24 from Bob:
I've heard the "cannons and the trumpets" overhead, but not at the same time.. Mid day for the trumpets and towards evening for the cannon sounds. The coincidence was a strong proton ion storm in progress for a few days (and an upset geomagnetic field), and a solar flare at the same time.
With Keeley as u were describing above, the "bubbles" are the phonon packets which I brought up in the post prior (and you then described it without using the descriptor "phonon".. The phonon can then be described as like a "sound-photon" -- however using "photon gets one into electromagnetism", so we stay away from that photon word, when getting into the packet (the bubble) and go for the closer descriptor, pho-non.. So in the plasma one has a dense ion matrix, it's conductive as all heck to electron flow as well.. Punching longitudinal waves of compression, zero, expansion, zero, compression, the plasma is bunched.
How it is bunched, with what harmonics, primes, and overtones, defines the bubble, AND what pattern is rotating ON the bubble's' surface in 3D.. That's where the triplets come in.
It's easy to see in a fluorescent tube being modulated with high voltage driving waveforms. The pattern (the waveform) then contains the desired spectral pattern. Keeley had to use metal strings to induce the waveform onto, and then have such couple or "launch" into the desired reaction chamber (for the energetic liberation of what seemed to be "binding energy" from an atom or two..).
I don't think one would need to pay attention to the "fractal" resultant pattern when a bubble breaks down, unless one is looking at how CERN's experiments are evaluating particle collision.. (consider a particle like an "electro-magnetic-photon"... So..
Phonon bubbles and photon bubbles...
And then that gets one back to the IFO/UFO.. What is within the shell, but a desired phonon pattern, which could be created with simple low powered systems..
======================
From Post 25 from lcam88:
The "fractal" pattern I meant to point out is not along the surface of the bubble. It would from the surface of the bubble, into each center or zero-point that is tuned in. If you imagine the bubble as a sphere, the fractal could represent a path from the surface, to the neutral center(s) of the sphere. I describe it as a fractal since I see the same (or similar) pattern (or tune) present at each level from the macro down into the micro and then the nano...
I say "each zero-point that is tuned in" because the medium is an aggregate of participating bodies (sub-bubbles), and so each body potentially defines a center... and then to the centers of the aggregates that make up each of those bodies...
If the fractal pattern is not present in a device, even if the device is capable of producing some effects, the apparatus requires being powered by an external motive of force and will likely run hot since a portion of the energy introduced to activate the device gets lost into the material medium that happens to incidentally respond to the specific "misalignment of the pattern or tune".
The AC induction motor for example, runs hot. Even if laminates are made very very thin, there are still edie currents that cause the material (medium) to heat up. Furthermore, it requires external energy to turn.
The rest of your elaborations are quite profound; picking one:
Please can you elaborate on this notion of triplets?Quote Originally Posted by Bob
How it is bunched, with what harmonics, primes, and overtones, defines the bubble, AND what pattern is rotating ON the bubble's' surface in 3D.. That's where the triplets come in.
Describing a photon as an electromagnetic phonon is insightful. A phonon is simply a quanta of mechanical movement or a moment of motion... Right? If everything is in a natural state of vibration, you could also say that these phonons are naturally abundant as C02 gas bubbles are in a fizzy drink? It might even be fitting to suggest that all matter would be in a BEC (Bose Einstein Condensate) state if not for the phonons.Quote Originally Posted by Bob
The phonon can then be described as like a "sound-photon" -- however using "photon gets one into electromagnetism"...
What is interesting about BEC state is that all aggregates (atoms and molecules) of a medium behave as though they where a single unit. As such the forces of each unit are amplified as a function of constructive wave interference might amplify wave energy...
Super-cooling materials down to near absolute zero simply reduces the phonon interactions to a point where the aggregate "synchronizes" into a single unit. So cooling is one way to "tune" the inter-molecular and molecular states with the atomic state. Does that fit?
We still need to elaborate what a plasma actually is. I've gone into this a bit on the "Stellar Metamorphosis thread". I'll link my elaboration here.Quote Originally Posted by Bob
So in the plasma one has a dense ion matrix, it's conductive as all heck to electron flow as well.. Punching longitudinal waves of compression, zero, expansion, zero, compression, the plasma is bunched.
Here is a quote of the explanation, sorry if I was a bit inarticulate.
I think understanding what a plasma actually is is fundamental to understanding interactions in the medium, specifically, what types of forces are present. To merely think of it as an energized gas leaves too much to be presumed about the nature of the energy...
To elaborate just a bit more about the added fluidity between liquids and gases. I consider compressibility significant because it adds another degree of freedom to the medium. Traditionally fluidity is not normally aggregated with compression, I know. But in this case I fly with it because we are identifying with degrees of freedom between the bodies.Quote Originally Posted by lcam88 @ http://jandeane81.com/threads/3649-T...#post841944844
Solid, liquid, gas and plasma, even as defined as states of matter, and even as states of matter are distinguished by energetic levels in the materials, is actually better understood in terms of level of fluidity within a medium.
Solids are the least fluid, powders more fluid than crystals obviously, and where malleability or flexibility of materials is a fluid characteristic.
Liquids are a step up, we can easily understand the fluid nature in liquids in our macro scale.
Gases a step up from liquids, compressibility is a type of fluidity that liquids sparely have due perhaps to greater energetic activity between the bodies composing the medium. By bodies, we mean an amalgamation of molecules and perhaps atoms that are interconnected between each other forming long chains. These bodies would also be present in liquids (solutions, and such) as well as solids (mineral ore has a matrix of sorts where molecules of various types are interconnected).
These bodies are held together by those residual energies that poke though the molecular boundaries and react with free agents in the vicinity as I mention above. Science calls them Van der Waal forces or London forces. When we break a solid object, say a piece of brittle metal, the break occurs along a fault where these forces are at their weakest and no longer can overcome the force maintaining neighboring particles together.
A plasma is then a medium of materials where the above bodies as found in gas, liquid and solid mediums have been decomposed into their more elementary particles, It may be atomic in structure, or it may be molecular in structure that is a distinction I think is less important at this point.
This type of fluidity is of the same nature of liquid but also where the London and/or Van der Waals forces do not obstruct the freedom in the particles that compose the medium from movement.
If energization of a medium is required to keep this type of fluidity, it can still be reasoned that the energy levels enable the fluidity and not necessarily cause it.
Why do I insist that plasma not necessarily be composed of an ionic substance?
Sea water is a solution where one of the dissolved molecules is NaCl, a molecule clumped together by ionic forces. In a solution, the ionic force is "transported" over the water molecules permitting more freedom between the connected Na and Cl bodies. In a sense, a salt water solution contains [not so free] ions in circulation. The requisite that ions must define the nature of a plasma state is inconsistent.
Why do I insist that plasma not necessarily be composed of energized materials?
Argon gas is a plasma substance by following this notion of lacking the interconnecting structures between the atoms. And indeed has all the characteristics of a material in the gas phase but it also is absent of restrictions between bodies thus also fluid down to the molecular if not atomic levels. This distinction has far reaching implications about the nature of the medium.
If other materials require a more energized environment to prevent intermolecular clumping, the environmental factor should be separated from the state of material insofar as it is important to make precise observations.
Bookmarks