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Thread: Existence Of Gravitational Waves Now Empirically Confirmed

  1. #31
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    bsbray, thank you for that video. Hilarious. Weird Al reached new heights with his rapping in that one. I heard some Eminem in his rhyme/rhythm. The DeGrasse Tyson look alike was the perfect addition.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally posted by lcam88 View Post
    Shadowself:

    I agree that science has moved from the position of "I have not yet been able to discover the cause of these properties of gravity from phenomena and I feign no hypotheses...", to relativity where one can say "We have a theory".

    That is progress.

    My skepticism is better qualified as "probabilistic skepticism" rather than "deterministic skepticism", in that I look at something and think, "it possibly could be explained better", or even "a better answer/solution is possible". Those being quite different from "it's wrong", "I can prove it", or even the classical appeal to authority, "Einstein showed it to be so."

    Let's examine this idea of spacetime, probabilistically skeptical here, and please correct or add to this where it is incorrect:

    1) spacetime is a concept; "In physics, spacetime is any mathematical model that combines space and time into a single interwoven continuum.",
    2) where our understanding of 3 degrees of freedom of a point or particle (x, y, and z) is given an additional degree of freedom where we can examine a point or particle in relation to a duration (time),

    3) we can further examine nearby energies using the concept of spacetime,
    3.1) changes in any of the 4 degrees of freedom must be in response to external stimulus,
    3.2) by describing deviations from a nominal neutral state of the concept defined above, by supposing a "curvature" can occur as x,y or y,z or x,z are plotted on a 3d grid in relation to t,
    3.3) any change in state observed within the 4 degrees of freedom are only introduced into spacetime and are only there to describe the nearby energies, and not there to describe spacetime,
    3.4) so we describe possibilities that are difficult to conceptualize, of the nearby energy, by super-imposing the effects of those concepts onto the concept of spacetime in the near vincinity, this experiment permits greater discrimination and offers mathematics a chance to describe bits and bytes of the whole as independent parts, not because necessarily the bits and bytes are independent, but because they can be represented that way,

    4) if you examine exactly what curvature means, considering along x, y, z and t(ime) we may be able to establish some things it is not:
    4.1) it is not more than can be defined by the 4 degrees of freedom we are using to define it,
    4.2) it is not a medium (aether), or anything else that requires particulate type consideration for any single point,
    4.3) it is not the fundamental that may cause an observation, it is only an explanation (one possibility) of what is observed,

    5) as you examine theories built on this concept, perhaps special relativity, you get insight into a relationship between light and matter as elaborated by that theory, the use of the concept of spacetime assists in "thought experiments" as well,
    6) and if a theory adds nuances about what the spacetime concept actually is in such a way that it adds properties, those elaborations do not change what fundamentally is only a concept defined by 4 degrees of freedom, but would define a new conceptual construct; such an elaboration, where applicable, seems fitting as a new term so that studies made with the new concept could be identified easily as based on a different model,

    7) the concept of gravity (a property of mass) applied to the concept of spacetime aids our understandings, we elegantly have gotten to step 3.4 and we have elaborate mathematical models that represent observations made in many circumstances, but its important to remember fundamentally those observations are of mass.

    We are all consciously aware of what we describe as the infinite possibilities of the universe, from a position of probabilistic skepticism as I describe above, item 4.3 above makes it perfectly clear why such skepticism would be well founded.

    Does the term "gravitational wave" mean anything different now that spacetime is defined as above? It certainly does mean more to me.

    If indeed there is a medium that fills space, a hypothesis or theory that would further elaborate and describe such a medium would not be unfounded if that medium was deemed to be important. But, as long as we confuse spacetime with this yet untheorized medium, we have yet to reach the point where Newton said: "I feign no hypotheses..."

    Here is another Sam Harris video that inspired all of this.
    Good Morning! Sorry it took me so long to respond to this post. I've been busy and pulled in many different directions and simply have not had the time to properly respond.

    As for the spacetime "concept"....It's not simply a concept but the bending of spacetime had been actually proven on several different levels. What that means for the theory (idea) of general relativity is confirming but not yet complete and as Kip said they have a long way to go and a whole lot more to learn from this direct evidence of gravitational waves. They are well aware of this also.

    Theory is simply that..... a theory and until proven through experiment are simply that...theory.

    There have been many experiments that have actually shown the bending of spacetime then throw in some string theory and quantum advise and it gets even more interesting. We are living in interesting time....no pun intended.

    Here is just a very short review of Evidence of Warped Spacetime but there is a whole lot more to it than that. In fact missing a few very relative (no pun intended) experiments that I will add in the following video which is again evidence of warped spacetime and an epic experiment.

    http://www.astronomynotes.com/relativity/s4.htm


    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkAPv5s92z0


    But given the simple fact that we are sitting in a galaxy that spins around a huge black hole traveling along these lines I will quote something that struck me a while ago of an ancient Egyptian nature from the Ancient Egyptian Coffin Texts which I'm certain you'll remember. The Redshift it what struck me...and I will quote a small part of the link I just provided.

    Prediction: light escaping from a large mass should lose energy---the wavelength must increase since the speed of light is constant. Stronger surface gravity produces a greater increase in the wavelength.

    This is a consequence of time dilation. Suppose person A on the massive object decides to send light of a specific frequency f to person B all of the time. So every second, f wave crests leave person A. The same wave crests are received by person B in an interval of time interval of (1+z) seconds. He receives the waves at a frequency of f/(1+z). Remember that the speed of light c = (the frequency f) × (the wavelength l). If the frequency is reduced by (1+z) times, the wavelength must INcrease by (1+z) times: lat B = (1+z) × lat A. In the doppler effect, this lengthening of the wavelength is called a redshift. For gravity, the effect is called a gravitational redshift.

    Observation: spectral lines from the top layer of white dwarfs are significantly shifted by an amount predicted for compact solar-mass objects. The white dwarf must be in a binary system with a main sequence companion so that the amount the total shift due to the ordinary doppler effect can be determined and subtracted out. Inside a black hole's event horizon, light is redshifted to an infinitely long wavelength.
    Then the Coffin Texts and the Negative Confession of the Book of the Dead ...

    If you fall into the black hole you will get crushed.

    Egyptian: Second death.

    If approached from the inner horizon or the axis of the black hole or the north
    pole, the gravitational repulsion of the central singularity slows the entity
    down, turning it around, and accelerating it back out through the inner horizon of a
    white hole. Put simply, the space axis and time axis exchange places when one crosses
    the outer event horizon, and the future becomes an unavoidable place in
    time or the crushing singularity. Crossing the inner event horizon, time and space resume their normal axes, making the singularity an avoidable place in space, while allowing access to the past singularity of the white hole. Ultimately, one goes through four horizons

    ~

    Egyptians referred to as the opening of mouths four times. The Opening of the
    Mouth ceremony parallels the movement of the Deceased through four horizons.


    According to scientific speculations, inside a spinning black hole, the act
    of looking backward would allow one to see a white hole or the past singularity.
    Since a white hole is a black hole running backward in time, the Negative
    Confession of the Book of the Dead describes deities:

    "Who come forth backwards".

    "He whose Face is behind him who came forth from his hole".

    The inner horizon, radiation is blueshifted as it accumulates.

    Field of Turquoise and the Blue One, Lake of Turquoise,
    traveling with turquoise, Lord of Turquoise, and open door of the blue sky.

    Indicates blueshift or the high frequency light associated with
    approaching radiation.

    In contrast, radiation moving away from the observer appears redshifted.
    The Dead King observes:

    he who departs is red and smeared

    "N" has gone up in the red hour.
    (N State described in video below starting at 1:16)

    ~

    According to Holographic principal: All Information about the black hole is stored on the horizon....The peripheral!

    Particles living on the horizon boundary describe objects in the interior.


    This ancient culture must certainly KNOW the landscape of space and time with great detail to know the redshift and blueshift attributes.

    Dead Kings escapes the black hole Netherworld associated with
    uraei shedding "light by means of their radiance (which cometh) from their mouths"

    or uraei pouring fire from their mouths:

    Firewall?

    The mouths of a wormhole are analogous to the holes at either end of the tube in a 2D plane...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole

    a quantum parallel exists between the transformed Deceased and Hawking radiance in the bulk, proposing the existence of large extra dimensions in small black holes.

    The Dead King is a horizon dweller: has a
    seat in the horizon, and takes possession of the horizon

    so that those who are in the horizon may live for this spirit

    "My power is in the horizon"

    ~The Ancient Egyptian Coffin Texts - R.O. Faulkner ~

    Peripheral Sensor/Surface

    Peripheral: Of, relating to, or situated on the edge or periphery of something.

    Redefining the Horizon
    This is and interesting idea and I will take context once again from said Coffin texts:

    In contrast, radiation moving away from the observer appears redshifted.
    The Dead King observes:

    he who departs is red and smeared


    While the thought is that we are in a galaxy spinning around the horizon of a black hole.....WE ARE HORIZON DWELLERS as is the dead king...

    The Dead King is a horizon dweller: has a
    seat in the horizon, and takes possession of the horizon

    so that those who are in the horizon may live for this spirit

    "My power is in the horizon"

    Redefining the Horizon....



    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXTGInIbD_Q




    As I said..there is much we have to learn....modern physics has a long way to go....this LIGO detection...is one small but significant step.
    Last edited by Shadowself, 21st February 2016 at 13:50.

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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    Shadowself! Good to see you. You were never more than six degrees away...
    Good to see you too...in six degrees!

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  7. #34
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    Oh..one last thing to add....if indeed in the Coffin Texts they are describing a black hole....they say:

    Egyptians referred to as the opening of mouths four times. The Opening of the
    Mouth ceremony parallels the movement of the Deceased through four horizons.
    Today our physics only describes three parts:


    There are three main parts to a black hole.

    Singularity
    Outer Event Horizon
    Inner Event Horizon

    So...perhaps they knew something we don't yet...

    Egyptian: Second death.

    If approached from the inner horizon or the axis of the black hole or the north
    pole, the gravitational repulsion of the central singularity slows the entity
    down, turning it around, and accelerating it back out through the inner horizon of a
    white hole. Put simply, the space axis and time axis exchange places when one crosses
    the outer event horizon, and the future becomes an unavoidable place in
    time or the crushing singularity. Crossing the inner event horizon, time and space resume their normal axes, making the singularity an avoidable place in space, while allowing access to the past singularity of the white hole. Ultimately, one goes through four horizons
    Last edited by Shadowself, 21st February 2016 at 14:36.

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    Whats the difference between the inner and outer even horizon?

    I've had a beer and so I'm not thinking "normally"

    If spacetime is a concept, proving it by confirming observations of mass and energy interactions with it just proves the concept is useful, not that it is actually real. Right?

    I would think it useful more because of how it can be used to predict characteristics of mass and energy, rather than in knowing something special about the concept.

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    "We are horizon dwellers." This made me think of Nassim Haramein and his idea that we are at the event horizon between the macro- and microscopic. It seems like the same or a similar idea.

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    I've had a new idea that might be worth taking a moment to think about in relation to the Michelson-Morley experiment of 1887 and the LIGO experiment.

    It relates to time dilation experiments that David Anderson is doing (Anderson Institute) in relation to the "frame-dragging" phenomena. That "spacetime" (or if you appeal to the theory of an aether type medium filling space) or a "bubble" of aether, is carried along with spinning energies or masses.

    Would this frame dragging phenomena then have come into play in an unexpected way during the Michelson-Morley experiment? That the designers of that experiment erroneously presumed the aether to be an inert material that should interact in a specific way where in fact it unexpectedly interacted differently?

    For the curious who needs a clue about what I'm hinting at: http://articles.latimes.com/1996-02-...uttle-columbia

    Why was the tether breaking "unexpected"?

    Is there a correlation between the "unexpected" participation of what was considered an inert medium/material, and the unexpected event on Columbia on Feb 26 1996?

    If there is, and given the nature of that Anderson Institute has been focused on, does the mean LIGO may have actually detected temporal waves instead?

    Are these interesting dots to be connecting?

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    I hope I can learn about the horizon:


    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBPpRqxY8Uw


    with Prof. Leonard Susskind

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    I respectfully disagree with the claim of gravitational wave discovery. My reasoning is that space and time are not physical, so they cannot wave. Water is made of hydrogen and oxygen, it can wave. To state space and time ripple like water is like saying dark and heavy ripple. It is bad science. I do not mean to insult people here because they have been so kind to me, but I do not have a problem calling out academics who wish to bamboozle the public for vanity purposes. BLEH!!!

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    Quote Originally posted by Jeffrey W. View Post
    I respectfully disagree with the claim of gravitational wave discovery. My reasoning is that space and time are not physical, so they cannot wave. Water is made of hydrogen and oxygen, it can wave. To state space and time ripple like water is like saying dark and heavy ripple. It is bad science. [...]
    As someone coming from a scientific background myself, I'd be interested in learning which sources, research and/or empirical testing lead you to that conclusion, Jeffrey. (And no, this is not Project Avalon, so you won't get banned here for not toeing anybody's party line. )

    Spacetime may not be physical in the sense that it would be a gaseous or electromagnetic medium — cfr. the so-called luminiferous aether which was once believed to exist — but it is itself a reality matrix nevertheless, and its tangibility exists beyond the matrix itself; i.e. in hyperspace. A manifold never exists within itself.

    This is also how wormholes can exist, i.e. they are shortcuts between two distinct sets of coordinates in spacetime, in the form of a conduit of spacetime which itself passes through hyperspace like a tunnel passing through a mountain. The only difference between a wormhole and a tunnel through a mountain in that regard is the fact that the mountain is part of the same vector space as the tunnel itself, whereas hyperspace is a higher-order vector space compared to spacetime; it has at the very least one (and probably multiple) extra dimension(s).

    The fact that spacetime can be warped has been empirically established by way of several hands-on tests, including the comparison of elapsed time on two perfectly identical and initially synchronized caesium clocks, one of which in motion and the other one stationary. Not only was this confirmed, but it has also become an indispensable ingredient in the calibration of the clocks onboard of satellites.

    Solar eclipses have also shown that the joint gravitational effects of the celestial bodies involved in the eclipse bend the light around these celestial bodies to a greater extent than outside of the eclipse. Given that photons move along a free-fall geodesic and that they do not have any rest mass, the only possible conclusion is that spacetime itself is being bent (to a greater extent than normal) around the gravitational well created by the conjunction of the celestial bodies.

    Einstein's predicted frame-dragging effect — the rippling distortion of spacetime around Earth, caused by Earth's rotation — has also already been empirically confirmed by way of specially designed space probes. Furthermore, the warp drive research independently conducted both by David Pares and by NASA also confirms that spacetime can indeed be warped. And if it can be warped, then it can exhibit ripples and waves.

    Perhaps the term "gravitational wave" would become more acceptable to you if you were to replace the word "wave" with "spacetime distortion".
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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