I will not step in such a direction that Jesus has never existed but below I stated my relationship to Jesus:
Jesus war nicht Gottes Sohn.
Jesus wurde nicht von einer Jungfrau geboren.
Zu seiner Geburt kamen keine drei Könige angerannt.
Jesus hat eine Tischler-Lehre gemacht.
Jesus hat Stühle und Tische gebaut die schnell kaputt gegangen sind.
Deshalb haben sie ihn aus dem Dorf gejagt.
Da hat er eine Sekte gegründet.
Er konnte keine Wunder tun.
Er konnte keine Toten aufwecken.
Lazarus hatte nur ein Lock-in-Syndrom.
Er konnte nicht über das Wasser laufen.
Aber er konnte gut reden.
Er hat viel mit den Pharisäern gestritten.
Er hat sich bei der Obrigkeit unbeliebt gemacht.
Er hat eine große Fresse gegen Pilatus gehabt.
Der hat ihn deshalb nicht begnadigt.
Kreuzigungen waren zur Römerszeit gang und gebe.
Die Römer haben an einem Nachmittag 1000 Kreuzigungen an den römischen Marschierstraßen aufgestellt.
Ich war bei der Kreuzigung von Jesus nicht dabei, deshalb enthalte ich mich mit meiner Aussage.
Jesus ist nicht nach drei Tagen auferstanden.
Das Grab war leer.
Wer den Leichnam weggeschleppt hat weiß ich nicht.
Jesus konnte nicht der Schwerkraft trotzen und in den Himmel auffahren ohne Equipment.
Warum aus seinen 12 Anhängern bis heute 1 Milliarde wurden ist mir unerklärlich.
The movie "Zeitgeist" has some similar information. When I first came across it I was skeptical, as I'd never heard these claims for other deities such as Horus, Attis, Mithra, etc. But I did a lot of digging and sure enough, all of this information checks out, even verified by early church fathers who made up excuses such as that Satan invented these earlier deities to make people doubt Jesus in later times.
Two old books now in public domain that I will recommend to anyone interested in this, are Pagan and Christian Creeds: Their Origin and Meaning by Edward Carpenter, from 1921, and Pagan Christs: Studies in Comparative Hierology by John M. Robertson, from 1911.
The long and short of it is that if you believe in Jesus, you might as well believe in Horus, Mithra, Attis, Hésus, Krishna, and a laundry list of other ancient deities from various cultures, because they all have the same basic story going on and the same quality of historical evidence. Even the name "Jesus" appears to be from the same etymological root as "Hésus" (a Gaulish deity that was the human incarnation of a triune god), "deus" (Latin for "god") and "Zeus" (Greek), though the "real" Jewish name of Jesus would have been closer to "Yeshua" which is the same name in Hebrew as what we render in English as "Joshua." Joshua, or Yehoshu'a (יְהוֹשֻׁעַ) is literally translated as "Yahweh is salvation." So even by the official story, this guy's whole name (Jesus Christ) translates as "Yahweh is salvation the annointed one."
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Jesus war nicht Gottes Sohn.
Jesus wurde nicht von einer Jungfrau geboren.
Zu seiner Geburt kamen keine drei Könige angerannt.
Jesus hat eine Tischler-Lehre gemacht.
Jesus hat Stühle und Tische gebaut die schnell kaputt gegangen sind.
Deshalb haben sie ihn aus dem Dorf gejagt.
Da hat er eine Sekte gegründet.
Er konnte keine Wunder tun.
Er konnte keine Toten aufwecken.
Lazarus hatte nur ein Lock-in-Syndrom.
Er konnte nicht über das Wasser laufen.
Aber er konnte gut reden.
Er hat viel mit den Pharisäern gestritten.
Er hat sich bei der Obrigkeit unbeliebt gemacht.
Er hat eine große Fresse gegen Pilatus gehabt.
Der hat ihn deshalb nicht begnadigt.
Kreuzigungen waren zur Römerszeit gang und gebe.
Die Römer haben an einem Nachmittag 1000 Kreuzigungen an den römischen Marschierstraßen aufgestellt.
Ich war bei der Kreuzigung von Jesus nicht dabei, deshalb enthalte ich mich mit meiner Aussage.
Jesus ist nicht nach drei Tagen auferstanden.
Das Grab war leer.
Wer den Leichnam weggeschleppt hat weiß ich nicht.
Jesus konnte nicht der Schwerkraft trotzen und in den Himmel auffahren ohne Equipment.
Warum aus seinen 12 Anhängern bis heute 1 Milliarde wurden ist mir unerklärlich.
Translates to English below
Jesus was not the Son of God.
Jesus was not born of a virgin.
At his birth no three kings came running.
Jesus made a carpentry apprenticeship.
Jesus has built tables and chairs have gone quickly broken.
That's why they chased him out of the village.
He has founded a sect.
He could do no miracles.
He could not wake the dead.
Lazarus had only one lock-in syndrome.
He could not walk across the water.
But he could talk.
He has quarreled much with the Pharisees.
He has made himself unpopular with the authorities.
He had a large face against Pilate.
The reason has not been pardoned.
Crucifixions were going to the Roman period and giving.
The Romans erected one afternoon in 1000 at the Roman crucifixions Marschierstraßen.
I was not there at the crucifixion of Jesus, so I am abstaining with my statement.
Jesus was not resurrected after three days.
The grave was empty.
Who dragged the body I do not know.
Jesus could not defy gravity and ascend to heaven without equipment.
Why were from his 12 followers until today 1 billion is inexplicable to me
No one person can ever change the truth, but the truth, once learned, can and will change the person
You must be the change you wish to see in the world when you are through changing, you are through
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Bsbray, I've never seen that video. Thank you for posting it. I've read a little about the similarities to Sun God worship. I wasn't aware how deep the parallels to Egyptian religion ran. I'll check out the books.
Scibuster, your video is next. Thanks for sharing your own views.
Whenever considering another researchers material I think it's important to investigate the researcher to see if they have an agenda. My question was soon addressed less than a minute into the video as Richard Carrier is an active Atheist. Though I have not watch all the video, I will later. I think it's also important to post the opposing comments to what Richard Carrier is saying as I think they're just as interesting. I'd love to comment more, but no time....maybe later.
"I would like to provide responses to the arguments and evidence that Richard Carrier offers to rebut my argument that Jesus existed. This task is complicated because, in his response to my original piece, Carrier says a surprisingly small amount that engages my argument and a large amount that does not.
Approximately half of his piece is devoted to other matters:
running through the names of people who agree with him in varying degrees
recommending books
expressing hope for the fortunes of his thesis in future decades
plugging his forthcoming book
acknowledging the mistakes of fact and argument made by others who hold that Jesus never existed
discussing the goal of his own research.
Stating Your Position is Not an Argument
In the part of his post that does respond to the original piece, Carrier does not interact very directly with its argument. Instead, he makes a series of alternative assertions that state his own view.
His view does disagree with mine, but stating your own view is not the same thing as providing evidence in favor of it. Much less is it the same thing as providing evidence against the view you are responding to.
Carrier’s goal in the post does not seem to be so much responding to the original argument as “giv[ing] you an idea of where this new approach to Christian origins is coming from”—that is, sketching an outline of his own view."
The Jesus Myth? A Response to Richard Carrier (Part 1) http://ratiochristi.org/uncg/blog/po...1#.VlclDb9l_mw
This is just basic digging, might be more on this guy. When reading articles, check out the comments too, I've often found very interesting remarks, sometimes better than the story itself!
Greek 'Christos'/Kristos (meaning 'anointed') has its roots in Sanskrit Krsna (Krishna) - Krishna was a cowherd, Jesus the good shepherd.
There were so many sacrificial 'gods', and most of the symbolism of Christianity comes from Celtic/Germanic/Norse pagan seasonal gods of sacrifice rites. Easter comes from the word Oestre - the goddess of fertility (oestregen comes from that word) - hence the symbols of eggs and rabbits, for conception and birth, then Christian rebirth/resurrection.
The burning of the Yule log came from the Norse ritual of welcoming the return/rebirth of the Sun (=birth of the Son) after the shortest day on Dec 22. The tradition of decorating the Christmas pudding with holly comes from the pagan ritual sacrifice of the Holly King at Midwinter. At Midsummer the Oak King was sacrificed, to bring fertility and bountiful harvest, then at winter the Holly King was sacrificed to renew the land with his blood and bring the new Spring. The red berries of the holly represented the god's spilled drops of blood....
The symbolism was completely merged by the Middle Ages, as can be seen for example in the tapestry below, 'Sight' from the Lady and the Unicorn suite in the Musee de Cluny in Paris (woven 1500 CE). Mary and Jesus are represented by the Lady and the Unicorn, whose 'reflection' is contained in the mirror in the lady's hand, 'the mirror unblemished', meaning Mary's purity. The two trees behind them are an Oak on the left and a Holly on the right, tying the Unicorn-Jesus (and the ensuing hunt of the unicorn) in with the tradition of the summer and winter sacrificial gods whose blood brings renewal to the land and good harvest.
bsbray, it is indeed a long laundry list. I embrace them all....
That Jesus - or any of the deities who came before him - forms part of a tradition, a recurring energy of sacrifice and resurrection, doesn't mean those souls don't exist...
Last edited by Joanna, 26th November 2015 at 15:17.
I make odds that Jesus existed about as high as the odds that I am the reincarnation of Horus.
I was in Timberlawn Psychiatric Hospital in 1979/1980. I was there because my family believed I was living "self-destructively" as a response to my father's suicide on June 26, 1979.
While I was there on a unit of about 45 people, there were 3 there all at the same time who believed they were the reincarnation of Jesus. They all seemed to emulate the savior complex. What I now know of the "living/dying/resurrecting God-Man myth" I sense that this "savior" dynamic is entrenched in the collective psyche of much of the western world and perhaps the world as a whole, but definitely in the west.
There is no evidence there was any "Jesus." There is lots of evidence that all sorts of societies who also show a desire to control their masses tap into this "savior" meme and make mythical stories which they then hand to the masses who follow "the Good Shepard" as all good "sheeple" tend to do.
The "new age jeshua" is just a contemporary version of this same scam.
Wake up folks... what "god" would create you such that you need any savior? Even if you had my view (the view we created us), the last thing I would need is someone to rescue me from the messes I am responsible for creating. If I fall for this, I am a minion if self deluded narcissism.
Bhhhaaaaaaaa, Bhhhhhaaaaaa.
PLEASE READ MY Signature...
All the above is all and only my opinion. It may contain some sharing of components of my current operating strategy and some foundational components of my current world view - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.
Contradiction and duality. It is this sort of extravagance in topic that acts as one of the many knots in a net that has the group psyche confined to repeating yesterdays crossword and thinking it is today's. Distract, divide, dumbfound, detain.
Meanwhile back at the Bat-cave, an evil plan has been sprung and there is no sign of any men in tights and over shorts to set things even. The base has been infiltrated by truant jellybeans and coffee table stories.
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I try not to chase superficial words and theories that hardly provide objective truth I can physically touch. I prefer real science that explain the past with physical evidence and records left in the past. The problem is conventional science is far from science, it's close to corrupted religious belief system that has little connection to mankind or Nature. I look at religion as elaborated form of metaphysics.
Subjective truth requires personal faith and entertainment side that last forever.
@Joanna
Which sun are they talking about? The first Sun, supposedly Proto Saturn or the second sun after present solar system was formed.
Many EU (Electric Universe) folks believe in the ancients, who had lived before the great cataclysmic event, had different solar system. Earth, Mars, and Venus were the moons of the first Sun. Proto Saturn's system moved into the solar system, created a lot of celestial actions till the new system stabilized.
The burning of the Yule log came from the Norse ritual of welcoming the return/rebirth of the Sun (=birth of the Son) after the shortest day on Dec 22. The tradition of decorating the Christmas pudding with holly comes from the pagan ritual sacrifice of the Holly King at Midwinter. At Midsummer the Oak King was sacrificed, to bring fertility and bountiful harvest, then at winter the Holly King was sacrificed to renew the land with his blood and bring the new Spring. The red berries of the holly represented the god's spilled drops of blood....
@Sam Hunter
I hear your agonizing voice loudly. When would general public remove all manufactured heros and god figures? I think that's the beginning of new world. I doubt that mankind has ever controlled over Earth, rather been served, manipulated as subservient species by non-human entities. Who are they is irrelevant matter IMHO. As long as people worship, being wasted, used by them as proxy agents to fulfill their agendas, humanity would never be free.
There are outstanding facts of direct manipulation of mankind both physical and spiritual levels. Fur is amazing heat control device animals have developed over millions years. I wish I have thick fur like birds that I could enjoy winter without external heat source. Natural evolution must preserve beneficial features of species.
Another example is why most humans have empty memory of past lives? Advanced computers started to carry on previous memories through cloning, migration technology. It just took few decades for humans to create reliable information system. Considering mankind's biological age, it does not make sense. Loosing entire life-long experiences and memories in every cycle of birth and death is absurd.
Magpie parents teach all essential knowledge for survival in Nature to their chicks within a year or so. How could they do? It's unbelievable. Meanwhile intelligent modern humans barely know how to build a shelter after spending 12 to 20 years' education. Conventional education system is a sick joke!
Last edited by hughe, 28th November 2015 at 01:07.
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Contradiction and duality. It is this sort of extravagance in topic that acts as one of the many knots in a net that has the group psyche confined to repeating yesterdays crossword and thinking it is today's. Distract, divide, dumbfound, detain.
I'm honestly not sure what you mean here, though if you disagree with the idea presented in the OP then that's perfectly okay and you can say so plainly. I personally think religions themselves do plenty enough of divide and conquer already, and without them and the emotional attachments they've created, there might be a lot less tension in the world in general.
If someone believes in Jesus and they get strength from that, and it makes them a better person, then I'm totally for that and would say nothing to disturb that person. But looking at things from a purely historical/investigative position, as someone who has a deep curiosity into what our past really looked like, as best we can reconstruct it, then I really think Jesus is equally real as any of the other deities mentioned above. Maybe in an esoteric sense, mass consciousness creates some kind of energetic signature or something that people can latch onto, or some archetype in the collective unconscious. But other than that I don't see much going on there.
Last edited by bsbray, 28th November 2015 at 04:16.
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I watched almost all of the video from the first post….I have to say, Carrier provides no substantial evidence to make his case anymore than the opposing side has been able to do. He talks way too fast, so it’s difficult to absorb what he’s saying and it gives one the feeling of being in the presence of a con artist, as if he knows he’s proving nothing.
"Approximately half of his piece is devoted to other matters:
running through the names of people who agree with him in varying degrees
recommending books
expressing hope for the fortunes of his thesis in future decades
plugging his forthcoming book
acknowledging the mistakes of fact and argument made by others who hold that Jesus never existed
discussing the goal of his own research.
Stating Your Position is Not an Argument"
So it comes down to what each individual chooses to believe. No doubt many falsities have been implanted into various religious factions…. will we ever know the truth? I think rather than attacking the messenger, Jesus in this case, it’s important to look at their message objectively. One of his messages spoke of love, compassion and forgiveness. What harm is done to someone who follows this type of behavior in their everyday life? Just because I personally believe he existed does not mean I see him as my ‘savior’. I never looked at him that way. By exercising the concept of love compassion and forgiveness something he supposedly taught, I ‘saved myself’ and I believe this was the true message. I’ve never been a follower of religion in this life time though my parents tried to force me until I finally pitched a big enough fit they let me be. I was formally baptized at the age of 10, but it meant nothing at the time and of course I did it just to please my parents. It was as if I instinctively knew to stay away from religion at a very young age.
Considering my viewpoint on religion from the very beginning, how can I not find it to be ironic the Kundalini experience I have shared numerous times (where I show how I saved myself) on this forum, was created using a thought process very similar to ‘The Way’, a concept taught by both Jesus, who supposedly doesn’t exist and Mary Magdalene? How could I know such a thing with no religious teachings or guidance in this lifetime? So if ‘He’ didn’t exist, where did I learn it from? It wasn’t until 20+ years after that experience I slowly started connecting the dots. For someone who supposedly never existed, it’s very odd for me to have experienced a form of spiritual alchemy minus any formal training that mimic his teachings.
And, even weirder….is to come across a picture painted of Jesus in a Scotland church with a title stating ‘Jesus transmutes heart with heavenly energy’,depicting a very similar experience I had when my Kundalini occurred. My writings of the experience were put in print Dec. 7, 2012. The picture of Jesus with the title using the same words I had described in my writings was just discovered by me a few months ago, I believe either late Sept or early Oct 2015. And the funny thing is this church is said to be dated around 1533, lol. What’s sad, is I can share my experience, but because it was subjective I have no way of ‘proving it’, but I believe what happened to me was very similar to what happened to Jesus. Due to this experience along with other additional objections personal to me, I feel confident he existed. And though I may not have picture memories of interacting with him, my behavior and description of ‘The Way’ I feel , can be construed as a form of memory by subconsciously remembering something I was taught long ago. I have done my best in sharing this connection in “The Great Experiment” thread. I don’t feel I’m being shistered in any way as the experience was a beautiful form of spiritual growth that sadly few are able to understand or experience. I even provided the science of the heart and remember one specific comment in particular, see underlined:
“What the people at the Institute of Heart Math have documented as scientific fact published in peer review journals, is the fact that the human heart is surrounded by a field of energy, it’s electrical energy and it’s magnetic energy, you can measure it with conventional equipment if it’s tuned properly. This field is called a torus, a tube torus it looks such like a donut that extends from the physical heart into the world around us for a distance of about 5 to 8 feet. And I asked one of the primary researchers…This field is so powerful, why does it stop at 5 feet or 8 feet? And he said, aah..that’s the limitation of my equipment. He said if we had better equipment what the equipment is showing is the heart field probably extends for a distance of many, many miles on the physical level, on the quantum level he said it’s probably infinite because it’s very difficult to tell where this electrical and magnetic field ends in the quantum field.”- Gregg Braden
And this: “Every individual’s energy contributes to the global field environment and each persons, thoughts, emotions and intentions affects the field.”- Institute of Heart Math
So I am suggesting based on what is being discovered in regards to the science of the heart and how it can affect the Aether Field, that if you do the Kundalini properly you are creating an energetic template that all have access to, because science shows that we are all connected to the ‘Aether Field’.
Consider a quote by Nikola Tesla: “To understand the true nature of the universe, one must think it terms of energy, frequency and vibration.”-Nikola Tesla
Relaying this story is extremely difficult because most people don’t have the acquired knowledge base to even come to this conclusion nor have they ever had the type of Kundalini I speak of, so to the average person, it is beyond their capacity of understanding. I do not say this to be demeaning, it’s merely an observation I have come to know for the very reasons I’ve stated. I’ve done my best to explain, so one can understand easily without having to go through all the research I had to in order to come to this conclusion.
So if what I’m saying is all crap…..someone please provide evidence as to how that painting appeared in the St. Mary’s church back in 1533? Who knew the meaning enough to paint such a thing if ‘He’ didn’t exist and the Kundalini I’m proposing he had, never happened?.... Cause it certainly seems to be matching the assertations I made long before I even knew such a painting existed! Now how does one explain that? These are the questions running through my head. And this is what happens when someone learns to think on their own.
And just because I share this personal story does not mean I think I’m special. I’m just a regular person who just so happened to have a unique experience, but like everyone else, I’m merely trying to connect the dots. So my agenda is the same as “Him”, (the one who supposedly didn’t exist)…..the message being, love compassion and forgiveness, is ‘The Way’. And not only is it 'The Way', it's our future, as we now know thanks to the new science, beliefs and emotions have an effect on the 'Aether Field' that surrounds and connects to us all.
Last edited by Divine Feminine, 28th November 2015 at 08:07.
Which sun are they talking about? The first Sun, supposedly Proto Saturn or the second sun after present solar system was formed.
Many EU (Electric Universe) folks believe in the ancients, who had lived before the great cataclysmic event, had different solar system. Earth, Mars, and Venus were the moons of the first Sun. Proto Saturn's system moved into the solar system, created a lot of celestial actions till the new system stabilized.
Hughe, since this was in reference to cultures existing on Earth over the last handful of thousands of years, they aligned their religions and ceremonies with the current Sun and Moon, especially the Solstices and Equinoxes, and full Moons. The sort of cataclysmic event that could mean a different Sun is not within that timeframe - though I do 'see' that there was once a different system here, and that there will be another to come, with another sun.... difficult to prove at this time, however...
@Sam, I get where you're coming from. However, the fact that you believed you were Horus and there could be several hundred folk on Earth at any one time believing they are Jesus, or some other saviour deity, neither proves nor disproves the inherent reality of those beings.
The religions created in the names of Jesus or countless other deified, glorified beings have obviously been used to condition perception and control societies. That is neither here nor there as to whether those original beings actually exist/ed either. It says more about humankind's tendency to fall on its knees and worship, and hand over personal responsibility to someone who appears to have a handle on things, in an apparently cruel, unpredictable and frightening (or indifferent) universe.
I am quite sure such beings do exist - at least, they do in my lived reality, which is all any of us can answer for - and that they are beings of love, compassion and wisdom, though finding it somewhat of a challenge to shift human perception/ego projections from either deifying them,demonizing them....or indeed, ignoring them....
It says more about humankind's tendency to fall on its knees and worship, and hand over personal responsibility to someone who appears to have a handle on things, in an apparently cruel, unpredictable and frightening (or indifferent) universe.
Yes... and someone mythical at best for there is no proof... and the people who told us "Jesus" was real are the same ones who are proven to be behind all sorts of atrocities perpetrated on mankind for centuries including the very real possibility they created a totally false history spoon fed to us all.
From my understanding "Jesus" is supposed to be "THE Son of God." If this is true in the way we are told by the "authorities" then whoever that "God" is can go back to where "it" came from for I would much rather accept what some (including myself having studied much of the Nag Hammadi Library) have interpreted the Gnostics to have warned us about which is the archontic imposition of "salvationist religion" for all sorts of reasons but certainly the most obvious being to make us feel we are some sort of defective creation of a supposedly loving "god." That is pure black magic and it has worked quite well so far.
Originally posted by Joanna
I am quite sure such beings do exist - at least, they do in my lived reality, which is all any of us can answer for - and that they are beings of love, compassion and wisdom, though finding it somewhat of a challenge to shift human perception/ego projections from either deifying them,demonizing them....or indeed, ignoring them....
Out of all the human beings we have on Earth, how many have "beings from beyond" participating in their waking state, conscious reality? A very tiny percentage. Why are those beings not involved in everyone's reality experience? Is one possible answer that the human beings who do not recognize other worldly beings participating in their life don't do so because they are unopen to the possibility? That they do not allow their perception to "see" (or "hear") such beings?
So I have to ask, wouldn't these beings know this? And so then, if they do... can they not see how this may very well cause more harm than good?
Why can't Earth humans be allowed to resolve their own matters? Does intervening in the lives of the few who can "see/hear" them who then go and tell others amongst humanity of their experiences actually create further division in humanity? And for those who only share their other worldly experiences with those who are open, does this not create a divide as well?
All of these things seem, to me, to actually emulate the actions of the beings the Gnostics warned us about.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Now having written all the above, what would be my opinion as to what may be true and what may not be? What is my opinion as to whether there may be other worldly beings involved with humanity? And if so, what is my opinion as to whether they are predominantly "good" or predominantly "evil?" And lastly, what is my opinion about the universe in general as to "good" or "evil?"
I have none. Why? Because over the course of my 58 years I have had a million opinions and theories about things that I cannot prove and one thing that has been consistent about them all is that they always change.
Yet when I know for certain that something is true - for example, that I am typing on a black keyboard with white symbols on the keys, I am very certain that as long as I keep coming back to tap on this keyboard, it will remain black and the symbols on the keys will remain white.
I cannot have that certainty either way about "Jesus" but what I can be certain about is that those who wish to push the Jesus was real belief have a consistent track record of screwing over most of humanity for centuries.
All the above is all and only my opinion. It may contain some sharing of components of my current operating strategy and some foundational components of my current world view - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.
The statement above is a black and white "is" statement. I disagree with it and I am stating it and thus I am arguing against your statement.
Is there something wrong with arguments for or against opinions of others? I do not take issue with those who argue against my opinions or theories or wishful thinking. I also do not mind folks who make arguments that support my opinions.
Arguing is part of the conversational dynamic and, in my opinion, is an amazingly healthy thing to do.
All the above is all and only my opinion. It may contain some sharing of components of my current operating strategy and some foundational components of my current world view - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.
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Originally posted by Nothing
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