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Thread: Does the Bock Saga lead on to The Lord Of The Rings?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    Maggie, your avatar picture is fantastic. What is the plant?
    I think it's a lupine. Truthfully, I am certain the plant was posed but it is a great picture anyway.

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  3. #32
    Senior Member Joanna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Elen View Post
    Shire Dweller, it is so nice to hear from you, I knew you were there amongst the visitors. I bid you welcome here, and this is your first post! Sits with me just fine. I think we should make this into a study of our past history. You would be a Hobbit, I suppose? Hobbits are most welcome here. I really know when things are making a lot of sense, dear Hobbit.

    And thank you Joanna for your take on Tolkien. I will look up more of the stuff on the link. Tolkien really made an effort to give us our history back to us, and I appreciate it very much. We can figure this out together, not anybody alone can do it. We are in this together. Joanna, it’s very interesting with the Quenya language, it sounds very much like the Van language, i.e. Finnish as they speak it today, which was the outer ring. The very core of things was the Root language, the one that I understand. It is very interesting, indeed.

    I appreciate your take on my name. It’s a Welsh name, meaning Light. It is my real name in this life.
    'We are in this together.' I couldn't agree more, Elen...

    The Asir/Aesir and Vanir, in Tolkien's mythopeia, became the Ainur, the Maiar...and the Vanyar, who were the elves who never left the Undying Land, Valinor (=Valhalla) for Middle Earth (=3D).
    I feel Tolkien wrote stream of consciousness from his higher self in at least some of his work - like the core text of his whole sub-creation, the Lay of Leithian, a poem of many thousands of lines which he never finished, and wrote firstly in Elvish, then translated into English. Below is a photo from one of the pages of the Lay of Leithian as he originally wrote it...he was 'thinking' or consciousness-streaming in Elvish:



    The Lay of Leithian is the story of Luthien, an elven woman, and Beren, a mortal man, Elrond's grandparents. It was later written as a complete prose story within the Silmarillion, and if you want to feel the heart of Tolkien, this is it...for on his and his wife's headstone at their grave are carved the names 'Beren' and 'Luthien'....

    About Ra and Maya - Jim Chesnar spoke of Maya meaning illusion, which is what is commonly stated. It may be worth noting that if you go back to the oldest layer of the Rig Veda, the sanskrit word Maya first meant an 'attribute' or 'power' of the gods, in a positive, benevolent sense. Later, its meaning shifted to illusion, which I feel relates to the drop in vibration of the Earth...what was once a power for good became seen/experienced under the veil of illusion....
    The Root Word As/Asir/Aesir is related to the sanskrit word for god, 'Asura', and 'Ahura', in the Avestan language of the Zoroastrians. There is a significant distinction between the two; in the Zoroastrian religion (Middle East), the Ahuras were the loving gods, and their 'dark counterpart' was the daevas/divs/dews (devils), who were false gods 'to be avoided'. But in Hinduism, the Asuras (like the change in the word Maya) were good early on, then later seen as evil, while the devas became the 'good'. In the Middle East, this reversal didn't happen. Another interesting thing about Zoroastrianism, their prime creator god, Ahura Mazda was both masculine and feminine merged (Ahura = masc 'god' and Mazda = fem 'wise'), which is rare in monotheisms...

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  5. #33
    Member on Sabbatical Morocco modwiz's Avatar
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    What I refer to as primitive Zoroastrianism is very dear to me and my mystic consciousness. By primitive, I refer to the "religion" as it was practiced while Zoroaster was alive. Like any religion, as soon as its inspiration is gone, the encrustations of the followers quickly adhere to the teachings. There wer no evil devas. They were divided into two groups however. Ones who gave good counsel and those who gave counsel that would lead to unpleasant ramifications in life. It was advised to ignore the latter and give them no heed or energy. Sort of like Jesus' saying "Resist not evil". Evil finds its power through the doings of mankind and all we have to do is ignore bad ideas. Like a body with a healthy immune system that is not susceptible to viruses. A virus cannot replicate itself, it must find a cell to do it bidding. That is, follow its bad counsel/ideas.

    I really enjoyed your breakdown of similar words and their roots, Joanna. I believe Tolkien was "channeling" memories of the Survivor culture, which most likely descends from the Original Race spoken of in the Bock Saga.
    "To learn who rules over you simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" -- Voltaire

    "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."-- Eleanor Roosevelt

    "Misery loves company. Wisdom has to look for it." -- Anonymous

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  7. #34
    Senior Member Joanna's Avatar
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    Modwiz: What I refer to as primitive Zoroastrianism is very dear to me and my mystic consciousness. By primitive, I refer to the "religion" as it was practiced while Zoroaster was alive. Like any religion, as soon as its inspiration is gone, the encrustations of the followers quickly adhere to the teachings. There wer no evil devas. They were divided into two groups however. Ones who gave good counsel and those who gave counsel that would lead to unpleasant ramifications in life. It was advised to ignore the latter and give them no heed or energy. Sort of like Jesus' saying "Resist not evil". Evil finds its power through the doings of mankind and all we have to do is ignore bad ideas. Like a body with a healthy immune system that is not susceptible to viruses. A virus cannot replicate itself, it must find a cell to do it bidding. That is, follow its bad counsel/ideas.

    Modwiz, that is really profound. They already had the understanding that 'what you resist persists' and that focus creates connection, an energetic connection to whatever it is you focus your attention on....so when it came to the false 'lying gods', avoid them, ignore them, give them no energetic pathway to connect with your consciousness and turn you into a 'host cell'....
    It doesn't mean saying they don't exist, like an ostrich with its head in the sand - just to know to direct your focus to what is beneficial, uplifting etc...

    I really enjoyed your breakdown of similar words and their roots, Joanna. I believe Tolkien was "channeling" memories of the Survivor culture, which most likely descends from the Original Race spoken of in the Bock Saga.

    I believe he was too, Modwiz. He also used conscious detailing, which may be in some sense 'prophetic' as well as 'memory'. For instance he wrote a 'version' of Freya's necklace, the Brisingamen (it would be interesting to see how that translates from the Root Language) which he called the 'Nauglamir', a necklace which contained a Silmaril (a jewel of prime creation light, basically). I won't go into the whole story of it here, but suffice to say the events surrounding the Nauglamir ultimately brought the creator gods (Ainur/Valar) back to Middle Earth, specifically to oust Sauron's master Melkor (Morgoth), who had taken control of the Earth....

    Freya wearing the Brisingamen:


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    Junior Member Great Britain shire_dweller's Avatar
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    Elen, yes, a hobbit at heart. Modwiz, I wonder if you've ever used the term 'shire-dweller' and it's stuck in my subconscious, and reading here always makes me think of LoTR so I plumped for that name. I'm not much of a poster, no confidence, but read a lot and will keep doing so.

    When I was reading shadowself's thread on time travel and Egypt synchronicities were coming at me at about the speed of light, it was such a strange day, and I find that a lot with ToT site, so if you don't mind I'll probably read more than I contribute, but thanks to all for the stimulation and help on the journey. I don't care if it's a cliche, it IS a journey.

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    Senior Member Joanna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by shire_dweller View Post
    Elen, yes, a hobbit at heart. Modwiz, I wonder if you've ever used the term 'shire-dweller' and it's stuck in my subconscious, and reading here always makes me think of LoTR so I plumped for that name. I'm not much of a poster, no confidence, but read a lot and will keep doing so.

    When I was reading shadowself's thread on time travel and Egypt synchronicities were coming at me at about the speed of light, it was such a strange day, and I find that a lot with ToT site, so if you don't mind I'll probably read more than I contribute, but thanks to all for the stimulation and help on the journey. I don't care if it's a cliche, it IS a journey.
    Happy journeying from the Shire, Hobbit kin:

    Still round the corner there may wait
    A new road or a secret gate,
    And though I oft have passed them by,
    A day will come at last when I
    Shall take the hidden paths that run
    West of the Moon, East of the Sun...

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    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    You guys keep this up and I'm gonna have to pull out the box set and have a LOTR marathon!

    I must confess that as a young adult I could not read the Silmarion. My friend Al told me to just skip the first 100 pages and go from there. (I couldn't deal w/all the begats).

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    A couple of new postings:

    Bock Saga - Jim Chesnar And Michel Merle near Lemminkäinen Temple

    https://youtu.be/11jE_4lXBcE

    (For some reason I cannot get the video embedded???)

    Bock Saga - Michel Merle Telling about Root Language

    Last edited by Maggie, 20th November 2015 at 20:53.

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    Super Moderator Norway Elen's Avatar
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    Bock Saga - Jim Chesnar And Michel Merle near Lemminkäinen Temple

    Thank you Maggie for posting that, I haven’t watched it yet, but I’ll watch it now.

    Here is another video showing a light conversation amongst friends, near the Lemminkäinen Temple. I really hope they can get into it soon.

    I get it now; this is our root, this where we come from. They made sure that we had good roots, to bring forward to our present. In other words, we’re from good stock, and now with that knowledge we can build what we are going to be in the future. Thank you Ior Bock for that alone. We will never go back to the old ways, but I’m sure that was never expected in the first place. We will be very strong when we remember who we are, indeed.

    Whatever is true. Whatever is noble. Whatever is right. Whatever is lovely. Whatever is admirable. Anything of excellence and worthy of praise. Dwell on these things. Jesus Christ (I agree)

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    Senior Member Joanna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    You guys keep this up and I'm gonna have to pull out the box set and have a LOTR marathon!

    I must confess that as a young adult I could not read the Silmarion. My friend Al told me to just skip the first 100 pages and go from there. (I couldn't deal w/all the begats).
    Dreamtimer, lol, yes it's not the easiest read! The first part is a creation myth, then the later part, about how the elves fared - the ones who left the Undying Lands and came to Middle Earth (ie; left higher dimensions to explore/experience lower/slower ones). I haven't had time to watch more than the first 3 vids on Elen's Atlantean Survivors thread, so won't comment over there, but will say here that the stories of the elves who went to Middle Earth has much akin with the concept of the flight from Atlantis, and the hounding of those folk wherever they went by darkened souls (orcs, balrogs, dragons and other servants of Morgoth, including Sauron).
    Also, there's one section in The Silmarillion that follows the fortunes of a human group, lead by Elendil (Aragorn's forefather) to Middle Earth's main continent after their paradise island Numenor succumbed to a tsunami event, which was a more direct Atlantis story.

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    Senior Member Joanna's Avatar
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    I feel to say something here about the North Pole, the Pole Star alignment, and the rings within rings on a more cosmic scale, as Polaris is mentioned as the North Pole alignment in the Bock material. Polaris sits at the end of the Big Dipper in the constellation Ursa Minor (Little Bear), and is of course Earth's current Pole Star. However, because of the precession of the equinoxes, the Pole Star - that which is aligned mostly closely with True North of the Earth's axis - has changed many times, and will continue to do so. 5000 years ago, Thuban (Alpha Draconis) was the Pole Star. In less than a thousand years from now, Gamma Cephei (Alrai, from Arabic, the Shepherd) of the Cepheus constellation will be closer to Earth's North Pole alignment than Polaris. By 10 000 CE, Deneb, alpha star of Cygnus, the Swan, will be within an few degrees of the pole. And in 13 000 CE, the alpha star of the Lyra Constellation, Vega, will be the Pole Star.
    This signifies a cycle, a ring that is in a 26 000 year completion process that culminates in Vega. Lyra, by the way, contains a very beautiful 'symbol' of the cycle, the Ring of Lyra. For what it's worth, in my 'cosmic memory', human life originated on a planet of the star Vega. Earth is a much much later 'creative settlement'. I know people have different views about dates concerning the fall of Atlantis; from my perspective the very last part of the Atlantean continent (Poseidia) went underwater 13 000 years ago, and we now sit at the midpoint of the turn of the cycle, where Earth's axis will align once more in another 13 000 years with humankind's original home.

    On looking up which will be the next Pole Star, to find it is Alrai/Gamma Cephei is in sync with what I am currently focussing on, regarding the return of the 'lost 13th sign of the zodiac', the constellation Ophiucus (the Babylonians erased it, and we will be in its 'vibrational window' very soon, which crosses over with Sagittarius, from Nov. 27 to Dec 19, before it was removed and we were left with the 12 point zodiac). Ophiucus, or Kelb Alrai, is called the 'Shepherd's Dog'. Polaris sits at the end of the Dog's Tail (Ursa Minor was seen in ancient times as a dog rather than a bear), and Alrai, the Shepherd, re-turns as the next Pole Star....

    The deeper 'universal' Yggdrasil isn't an ash tree in a graveyard that can be cut down by human hands - that's a localized reflection of the energy of disconnection from the life force of Source/Creation. Rings within rings; inner rings, and outer rings of reflection, so many of them...

    Tolkien wrote of nine rings given to mortal men (3 to the elves, 7 to the dwarves) - they were subsumed by the power of the One Ring, and those men became the Ringwraiths - and their leader, the Witchking of Angmar, was a 'Black Numenorian', meaning one of the escaped dark priesthood of Atlantis.



    The Ring of Lyra:



    Last edited by Joanna, 22nd November 2015 at 08:40. Reason: info correction

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    Senior Member Novusod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    You guys keep this up and I'm gonna have to pull out the box set and have a LOTR marathon!

    I must confess that as a young adult I could not read the Silmarion. My friend Al told me to just skip the first 100 pages and go from there. (I couldn't deal w/all the begats).
    How can you skip the first 100 pages? The Tolkien creation myth is incredible.

    Here is a surprisingly well done video showing a good chunk of that first 100 pages you missed.


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    Member on Sabbatical Morocco modwiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Joanna View Post
    Dreamtimer, lol, yes it's not the easiest read! The first part is a creation myth, then the later part, about how the elves fared - the ones who left the Undying Lands and came to Middle Earth (ie; left higher dimensions to explore/experience lower/slower ones). I haven't had time to watch more than the first 3 vids on Elen's Atlantean Survivors thread, so won't comment over there, but will say here that the stories of the elves who went to Middle Earth has much akin with the concept of the flight from Atlantis, and the hounding of those folk wherever they went by darkened souls (orcs, balrogs, dragons and other servants of Morgoth, including Sauron).
    Also, there's one section in The Silmarillion that follows the fortunes of a human group, lead by Elendil (Aragorn's forefather) to Middle Earth's main continent after their paradise island Numenor succumbed to a tsunami event, which was a more direct Atlantis story.
    Numenor was destroyed by the Valar or Iluvatar because Men broke agreements and understandings.
    Last edited by modwiz, 22nd November 2015 at 12:37.
    "To learn who rules over you simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" -- Voltaire

    "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."-- Eleanor Roosevelt

    "Misery loves company. Wisdom has to look for it." -- Anonymous

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    Senior Member Joanna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Novusod View Post
    How can you skip the first 100 pages? The Tolkien creation myth is incredible.

    Here is a surprisingly well done video showing a good chunk of that first 100 pages you missed.

    Novusod, thanks for posting that vid - beautiful envisioning of the Ainulindale!

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    Senior Member Joanna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by modwiz View Post
    Numenor was destroyed by the Valar or Iluvatar because Men broke agreements and understandings.
    Yes, I can't remember whether it was destroyed by the Valar at Iluvatar's order, or by the Prime Creator him/itself, modwiz. Sauron (who could still take form at that point) went to Numenor and twisted the minds of those who were susceptible against the Valar. He seeded in their minds a distorted picture of the creator beings, that they were cruel and power hungry, and suppressing mankind, depriving them of immortal life. Sounds really familiar, somehow. Patterns have a way of repeating.............
    Some of the Numenorians, however, didn't fall for Sauron's 'advice', of whom Elendil was the chief. They foresaw that Numenor/Atlantis would fall, and prepared their ship in secret to evacuate if need be, landed in Middle Earth, and sought to rebuild their culture....
    Numenor fell after the King allowed Sauron (or at Sauron's bidding?) cut down the White Tree - again, the felling of a sacred tree precedes the collapse of a culture/disconnection from the divine.

    I'll correct something I said above about Luthien too - she was part elven and part Maiar - an order of angelic beings who were the helpers of the Ainur. The Istari (the wizards - Gandal, Saruman, Radagast etc) were of that order too.
    Last edited by Joanna, 22nd November 2015 at 13:45.

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