"Meditation: Deconstructing Nonsense". Is enlightenment an illusion?

[Elen]

Found this on PA today:

Bill Joslin being interviewed about how we are the creators of our own reality, but we can be manipulated through teachers and gurus to come up with their framework of their reality instead.

It doesn't matter who you give your own power away to, it will always put you in a bind or double bind situation.

The bottom line is this: Don't dive into any form of belief system, but make use of your own judgment as to what is real or not, because you are the creator of your own reality. I agree with this, be responsible for your own experiences.

If the video is too long, then fast forward to 1:33 or so.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMQNV8D0ueQ


Elen

[Dreamtimer]

Manipulated to come up with their framework of reality. What a great observation. I dislike many followers of gurus because they judge. People don't measure up to their beliefs or their Master.

[ERK]

Excellent (have not listened to this yet). Wish I could take this to the ashram and have the devotees have a listen. I view all forms of religion, gurus, etc; as a form of mind control. It's better to be autonomous and have your own experiences. I say this after having delved into numerous practices, and being a meditation teacher myself. You are your own best guru.

[scibuster]

This is my guru nickname session:
With some comments in German.


Jiddu Krishnamurti (A famous FOG-TALKER)
U.G. Krishnamurti (He makes a real reboot after his total system crash)
John G. Bennett (Hat der etwa G. verstanden?)
Georg I. Gurdjieff (Bei ihm wurde heißer gegessen als gekocht.)
Piotr D. Ouspensky (Mit 3-fachen Knoten in den Gehirnwindungen.)
Paul Brunton (Traveller)
Alice A. Bailey (harmless)
Robert Anton Wilson (harmless)
Thomas Ring (Geschwulst)
Jane Roberts (Medium)
Swami Narayanananda (Impotent)
Anton Hynkel (der kleine Mann hat ein Geräusch gemacht)
Der Nazarener (Founder of an ancient religious split path)
Gautama the Buddha (Founder of an ancient religious split path)
Mohammed (Prophet and founder of an ancient religious split path)
Idries Shah (Harmless)
Ron-TRON Hubbard (Gelungene Operation Mind****)
Keith Sherwood (Krank oder gesund ?)
Shinichi Seike (Und wieder ist es einigen gelungen zu fliegen.)
Wilhelm Reich (****ing Orgon-Boxer)
Friedrich Nietzsche (Jedermann/frau bekannt, wenn er hat Verstand)
Adolf Martin Oppel (Grießbreifresser)
Oriella (Steigts du aus der Badewanne, füll' das Wasser in die Kanne)
Alfred Richard Orage (G.'s Darling)
Jan Cox (Nickname Chicago. Top secret: He never met G.)
Paul Twitchell (Paule der Faule Copyrighter-copywriter von Heckankar)
Darwin Gross (Meister der Weiber)
Harold Klemp (Wurde im Juni 1982 von mir für vogelfrei erklärt)
Omar Kayyam (Übersetzung von Edward Fitzgerald, leider vergriffen)
Professor D.Lane (Makes pee to a foot of Paule der Faule)
Vissarion (Macht Feuer in Sibirien)


**** for the dirty word

[Elen]

Excellent (have not listened to this yet). Wish I cold take this to the ashram and have the devotees have a listen. I view all forms of religion, gurus, etc; as a form of mind control. It's better to be autonomous and have your own experiences. I say this after having delved into numerous practices, and being a meditation teacher myself. You are your own best guru.

YES, YES, YES.

We are the ones that we've been waiting for, nothing less.

Elen

[ERK]

A student in last week's class asked the "acharya" (acharya is a spiritual expert) something about a revelation another guru had on the nature of mind (can't recall exact question) and ahem well the revelation was shut down instantly because the ashram's guru doesn't have it laid out that way. LOL. I just sit there biting my tongue.

[Elen]

A student in last week's class asked the "acharya" (acharya is a spiritual expert) something about a revelation another guru had on the nature of mind (can't recall exact question) and ahem well the revelation was shut down instantly because the ashram's guru doesn't have it laid out that way. LOL. I just sit there biting my tongue.

Thank you ERK you are definitely on to something here.

[ERK]

Well yes, they (followers) live in a box constructed by their guru- which was constructed by Kashmir Shaivism derived from Tantric Shaivism. I see the whole thing as a tool (kundalini meditation) but there's no need to get wrapped up in every little nook and cranny.

[Aianawa]

If one is totally asleep as such, a religion or guru or spiritual belief system can be very helpfullll, maybe if a standard could be put into some context of when to look for other ways to go within, like when one stops evolving or is taken away from their own intuition/feelings. Feel finding the right practice for oneself to go within is a far safer way imo but definitely imo a wise guru for a short/ish length of time can greatly raise one connection to oneself and/or god.

[scibuster]

If my/your guru is not on a spiritual-cannibalism-tour maybe I can profit from him.

http://www.gurdjieff-con.net/20…/…/0...l-cannibalism/

[Elen]

If one is totally asleep as such, a religion or guru or spiritual belief system can be very helpfullll, maybe if a standard could be put into some context of when to look for other ways to go within, like when one stops evolving or is taken away from their own intuition/feelings. Feel finding the right practice for oneself to go within is a far safer way imo but definitely imo a wise guru for a short/ish length of time can greatly raise one connection to oneself and/or god.

Yes Aianawa, you can let yourself be inspired by something, but if you become a follower, and fall into the trap of thinking that you are flawed and need repair because somebody said so, you are already in a box. As scibuster rightly pointed out, there is something called spiritual cannibalism.

We are all on a spiritual journey, Aianawa, and somewhere along the line, we come to a point where we have to say, enough is enough, of external influences. It’s quite natural that we help each other on the way, i.e. if you breake a leg I’ll do the shopping for you. In our natural state we are kind and helpful.

Elen

[Aianawa]

External positive influences for one to become one or all as such are helpfullll imo. Needed often by many in the past and present ( little in the future imo though ), guru's, religions etc that is, but spiritual practices will become the norm imo, from Qi Gong, reiki, yoga etc.

[Joanna]

Everyone thinks, feels and speaks from their current state of awareness, and awareness is a fluid thing that changes, contracts, expands, attracting experiences, beliefs and events according to the 'frequency' of that awareness, and its underlying state of consciousness.
In his current 'now', Bill Joslin views enlightenment as an illusion, and as he says, 'no big deal'. Next hour, next day or week or year, he could have a different experience of 'enlightenment' to what he currently terms enlightenment, and his whole awareness and understanding would change.
So could any of us. That's the mutability and the alchemy of life, when we are prepared to allow transformation/s....

For a few years in my early 30s (some 20 years ago) I followed a yogic path, and did a meditation every day that I believed was helping me to open my heart - until one day, as I was doing it, I felt my energy go out of my heart and back onto the 'bridge' it was supposed to take practitioners across. All that had occurred was that I had stepped into a deeper level of self trust, and self-responsibility - and that revealed an effect of the meditation that had been masked.
Bill J. is spot on when he says responsibility and freedom go together.

I see seeds of truth, part truths, and distortions of varying depth/intensity, in every holy book of every religion, as well as in the 'religion of science', and equally among the teachings, galactic information and researches put forth by many folk who believe themselves to be clear conduits of God, their higher self, angels or ETs, or as souls with privileged connections to the Akash, informers freed from mind control programmes, or deductive/inductive researchers of the ancient world and so on, all seeking to 'enlighten' others as to the nature of reality on Earth and its galactic relationship. What ends up happening is exactly what Bill J. spoke of: that people get manipulated to come up with their version of reality. More than that, focus draws energy, and the focus of thousands, or tens of thousands of people, energizes these various 'realities' that are put forward, feeds and supports them, whether its the 'reality' of a yogic path or the next installment from an 'information enlightener'. It's not the form that matters, it's the way people give their focus and energy.

'Home' is where the heart is - where the heart is, the soul is - where the soul is, love is, life is. That, for me, is the simple 'reality' of enlightenment.
Keeps it easy, and from that ease, I can appreciate seeds of truth, without getting caught up in the distortions in the mix - and also without 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater'.
Self responsibility is trusting inner guidance, from my oversoul, through Self that has a bigger view, that knows itself within the whole.
Like attracts like. Wholeness connects with that which is whole. Lightness of being draws that which is en-lightening. Then miracles happen...

[Elen]

Everyone thinks, feels and speaks from their current state of awareness, and awareness is a fluid thing that changes, contracts, expands, attracting experiences, beliefs and events according to the 'frequency' of that awareness, and its underlying state of consciousness.
In his current 'now', Bill Joslin views enlightenment as an illusion, and as he says, 'no big deal'. Next hour, next day or week or year, he could have a different experience of 'enlightenment' to what he currently terms enlightenment, and his whole awareness and understanding would change.
So could any of us. That's the mutability and the alchemy of life, when we are prepared to allow transformation/s....

For a few years in my early 30s (some 20 years ago) I followed a yogic path, and did a meditation every day that I believed was helping me to open my heart - until one day, as I was doing it, I felt my energy go out of my heart and back onto the 'bridge' it was supposed to take practitioners across. All that had occurred was that I had stepped into a deeper level of self trust, and self-responsibility - and that revealed an effect of the meditation that had been masked.
Bill J. is spot on when he says responsibility and freedom go together.

I see seeds of truth, part truths, and distortions of varying depth/intensity, in every holy book of every religion, as well as in the 'religion of science', and equally among the teachings, galactic information and researches put forth by many folk who believe themselves to be clear conduits of God, their higher self, angels or ETs, or as souls with privileged connections to the Akash, informers freed from mind control programmes, or deductive/inductive researchers of the ancient world and so on, all seeking to 'enlighten' others as to the nature of reality on Earth and its galactic relationship. What ends up happening is exactly what Bill J. spoke of: that people get manipulated to come up with their version of reality. More than that, focus draws energy, and the focus of thousands, or tens of thousands of people, energizes these various 'realities' that are put forward, feeds and supports them, whether its the 'reality' of a yogic path or the next installment from an 'information enlightener'. It's not the form that matters, it's the way people give their focus and energy.

'Home' is where the heart is - where the heart is, the soul is - where the soul is, love is, life is. That, for me, is the simple 'reality' of enlightenment.
Keeps it easy, and from that ease, I can appreciate seeds of truth, without getting caught up in the distortions in the mix - and also without 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater'.
Self responsibility is trusting inner guidance, from my oversoul, through Self that has a bigger view, that knows itself within the whole.
Like attracts like. Wholeness connects with that which is whole. Lightness of being draws that which is en-lightening. Then miracles happen...

Beautifully put Joanna, you've got wisdom written all over yourself. A very much appreciated response to the thread. Balanced, thoughtful and very gentle.

Thank you
Elen

[Joanna]

Beautifully put Joanna, you've got wisdom written all over yourself. A very much appreciated response to the thread. Balanced, thoughtful and very gentle.

Thank you
Elen

Thanks Elen, I appreciate your energy too.