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Thread: We are A.I.

  1. #16
    Senior Member donk's Avatar
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    You're afraid of being called AI...even the implication of it.

    Now everyone get on your knees!!!!
    What is the purpose of your presence?

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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally posted by donk View Post
    I don’t know, my friend…Seems to me "reason" and "logic" are as subjective as any other belief, and perhaps more easily twisted?
    You may be right about that. I presume logic and reason to be based on sound truth... a huge leap of faith there, in that presumption.

    Quote Originally posted by donk View Post
    I guess the main point I keep coming to is this meme (flat earth is another example) seems to me to be the modern day “Tower of Babel”, a device (of our making) which we believe makes us able to reach godhood…makes us “creator gods” in our own reality, but actually seems to effectively divide us.
    Tower of Babel is also a computer science exercise designed to teach the operation and use of stacks (elementary computer data structure) to solve a complex problem in a divide and conquer type strategy. In the sense that once you do solve the problem you become proficient in the application of a computer fundamental, you become god indeed, insofar as you perceive godhood in the ability to program a computer (see application of logic and reason and the contemplations thereof above).

    The traveling salesman problem...
    Last edited by lcam88, 11th November 2015 at 02:22.

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  5. #18
    Senior Member donk's Avatar
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    I thought this was really well done:

    http://www.inphinet.net/threads/the-story-of-al.240/
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    I have come across a point that my be worth mentioning here (and now). Something of man-made origin has been described as "synthetic".

    So the obvious question is:

    What would be the difference between synthetic intelligence vs artificial intelligence?

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    No one can ever accuse donk of avoiding deep thought. You have really gone extremely deep into the matter.

    I have read much of this thread though not all. Icam88s responses are also very thoughtful. Dreamtimer in few words says so much (not my forte!)

    What came to me as I read seemingly opposing views or at least alternate views is that all the views had validity from...

    Their point of view.

    How I dealt with the conundrums that are suggested by multiple points of view is by delving deeply into what is referred to as "the mystery" and is found as the very most important matter to come to terms with in every mystery tradition known to have been or be on Earth. These mystery traditions are often referred to as the perennial philosophy. At the heart of it is "the seeing and understanding of the paradox of being."

    It is quite difficult to describe as words limit whereas a component of the paradox involves the infinite.

    This video does a good job of describing what I am referring to -


    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZmJUYIsp98

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    Quote Originally posted by lcam88 View Post
    I have come across a point that my be worth mentioning here (and now). Something of man-made origin has been described as "synthetic".

    So the obvious question is:

    What would be the difference between synthetic intelligence vs artificial intelligence?
    Let me ask this... is a dam made by a beaver natural or artificial? If your answer is natural as beavers are simply animals that thrive in nature then I would argue that all creations of man are also all natural. take it a step further - if creation is "natural" then all creations of those created by Creation are also natural.

    Where's the magic line? If there is one, it is at best a subjective opinion.

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  13. #22
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    I was incredibly bothered the first time I was asked to ponder the question, "if a machine thinks and relates and feels like us is it sentient? Is it alive?"

    I decided I was glad it was just a philosophical question I'd never have to face.

    Those days are coming to a close....

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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    I was incredibly bothered the first time I was asked to ponder the question, "if a machine thinks and relates and feels like us is it sentient? Is it alive?"

    I decided I was glad it was just a philosophical question I'd never have to face.

    Those days are coming to a close....
    I cannot pretend to know the answer but I do have a strong opinion about this. Again... all and only opinion which I will state as if it is fact but is all and only opinion - (stated for those who might take it that I am egoically trying to protect others or tell people something - and I am not referring to you, Dreamtimer).

    A machine is never infused with the original (primal) urge to live... to be alive, to experience. Thus in my opinion, it can never have the fear of its own demise.

    Could it be programmed to learn methods that better ensure its own survival? I don't see why not and I do not see that this might never threaten life. But I don't see it ever desiring survival as a living being does (at least in most cases of living beings).

    The primal urge behind creation can never be broken down into bites. Neither can the desire to survive as that is also an urge.

    alllll opinion only.
    Last edited by Chester, 13th November 2015 at 07:58.

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  17. #24
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    Isn't what we're talking about a programmed thing choosing against/despite its programming? At that point, isn't whatever it is we're NO LONGER "artificial"?

    We program computers or whatever as our--its programming--slaves, not "intentionally" or in a "bad" way--but most of the AI we create we don't expect to decide it wants to do its own thing

    But if it ever does, like we like to imagine...what is artificial about the free will we fear it develops?
    Last edited by donk, 13th November 2015 at 14:18.
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  19. #25
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    Quote Originally posted by Sam Hunter View Post
    Let me ask this... is a dam made by a beaver natural or artificial? If your answer is natural as beavers are simply animals that thrive in nature then I would argue that all creations of man are also all natural. take it a step further - if creation is "natural" then all creations of those created by Creation are also natural.

    Where's the magic line? If there is one, it is at best a subjective opinion.
    I thought about this for some time.

    I think it is a case where relativity of the subject matter need to considered. Insofar as the beaver synthesized an artificiality that effects river flow, our point of relativity can be such that a beaver damn or a bee hive are artificialities.

    If you accept that all creation of man is also natural, what does that say about the point of relativity being used for comparison? Does that result in a degenerate case of consideration?

    What is real? is another question that perhaps requires a similar approach.

    In fact, it seem the approach is valid for electrical systems; neutral can be defined anywhere along the charge spectrum you like. For convenience sake, we consider our green electric wire (grounded) to be neutral. But the Earth is actual not neutral at all in comparison to a star or to interstellar space.

    Thanks for posting Sam.

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  21. #26
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    Quote Originally posted by donk View Post
    Isn't what we're talking about a programmed thing choosing against/despite its programming? At that point, isn't whatever it is we're NO LONGER "artificial"?

    We program computers or whatever as our--its programming--slaves, not "intentionally" or in a "bad" way--but most of the AI we create we don't expect to decide it wants to do its own thing

    But if it ever does, like we like to imagine...what is artificial about the free will fear it develops?
    First and foremost, machines and programs are designed to solve problems.

    Problem solving takes many forms, but the algorithm boils down to Input => process => output. More complex systems, and AI certainly is, samples output as part of a feedback system. Quality control involves this type of consideration. An AI would be at a point where feedback process and throughput process are more or less equally complex. But fundamentally, a machine will follow the rules it is given and solve the specific (or general) problem it is tasked to handle. That defines a finite number of "dimensions" and limits of its "awareness".

    Insofar as machines are tasked to handle specific and specialized problems those limits are reasonable safeguards.

    I think it would be a pretty dumb idea to define a machine task where harming human beings is considered a task parameter. That autonomous drones may generalize the issue to "targets", but as long as they process their task with specificity, rather than generality, then fewer machine interpretations are likely to also reduce the chances of the "runaway AI scenarios".

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  23. #27
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    Quote Originally posted by lcam88 View Post
    I have come across a point that my be worth mentioning here (and now). Something of man-made origin has been described as "synthetic".

    So the obvious question is:

    What would be the difference between synthetic intelligence vs artificial intelligence?

    I think what we're really talking about here is "life" in the sense of something capable of CHOOSING to manipulate something that is not itself.

    What humans believe to be "good" is when that activity does not bend the will of an "other". What we consider an "other" worthy to be left to its own will, to not be manipulated in a way we would choose, is where the lines start to blur.

    This is the source of the most emotionally charged arguments, I think watching a vegan thread would be he best/most obvious example.

    But what I'm trying to wrap my brain around, is what we as a species (and myself as individual) understand a sentient machine to actually be:

    An unfounded, irrational fear?

    Some sort of black magick where we or some other being transfer a consciousness into a machine?

    A self-preservation program so complex it is indistinguishable from a free-will-having consciousness?

    An evolution, a random mutation within a mechanical system that gives it "life"?

    Quote Originally posted by lcam88 View Post
    First and foremost, machines and programs are designed to solve problems.

    Problem solving takes many forms, but the algorithm boils down to Input => process => output. More complex systems, and AI certainly is, samples output as part of a feedback system. Quality control involves this type of consideration. An AI would be at a point where feedback process and throughput process are more or less equally complex. But fundamentally, a machine will follow the rules it is given and solve the specific (or general) problem it is tasked to handle. That defines a finite number of "dimensions" and limits of its "awareness".

    Insofar as machines are tasked to handle specific and specialized problems those limits are reasonable safeguards.

    I think it would be a pretty dumb idea to define a machine task where harming human beings is considered a task parameter. That autonomous drones may generalize the issue to "targets", but as long as they process their task with specificity, rather than generality, then fewer machine interpretations are likely to also reduce the chances of the "runaway AI scenarios".
    So is the meme's worrying about it actually a fear of a bad-for-us interpretation of the parameters we give it? That it's not some seperate entity we fear, with free will and any awareness beyond its programming? Rather we fear the program's playing out that a human being created...not the "AI" itself?
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  25. #28
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    I'm inclined to say the fear is about the program playing out what another human has created, initially. That fear is founded in capabilities of other human and that they may appear to wield such might against us. Even under various guises. We are predators in some ways and certainly we discriminate within our ranks in ways that cause real suffering. And furthermore, we are ever suspicious that others would tread upon our "claim" in a way that may damage us.

    Until we can say definitively that a machine is really the cause of our suffering, humans are unlikely to unite in a sustainable and meaningful way. Part of our toolkit includes distraction, AI being one form of that.

    And if hypothetically, there is a real AI at work behind the scenes that really is causing damage, we are likely too distracted by all the "smoke" to really notice. If we have any fear of the AI itself, it is likely based on rumors and lack of verifiable knowledge then anything concrete. And if an AI was so advanced indeed it would find its task much easier to complete as long humans fight amongst themselves, rather than against it.

    So insofar as fear is of topic, we fundamentally fear ourselves IMO. Especially if the constraints that limit how much suffering or damage we could do to other humans where lifted.

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  27. #29
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    A self-preservation program so complex it is indistinguishable from a free-will-having consciousness?
    A program is limited to dimensions of input from pre-defined environmental specifications. Insofar as your environment is simple, a program in general tends to be simple, regardless of task.

    A program that would appear to show free-will consciousness would then require an environmental scope at least equivalent to our own. That entails complexity even if the task is not self-preservation.

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    So how about a program to create programs, based on received feedback?

    Isn't everything we create "adding complexity"?
    Last edited by donk, 13th November 2015 at 15:25.
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