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  1. #1261
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    The Fate of the Gods

    Ragnarok (Franz Stassen, 1920)

    Someday – whenever the Norns, those inscrutable spinners of fate, decree it – there shall come a Great Winter (Old Norse fimbulvetr, sometimes Anglicized as “Fimbulwinter”) unlike any other the world has yet seen. The biting winds will blow snows from all directions, and the warmth of the sun will fail, plunging the earth into unprecedented cold. This winter shall last for the length of three normal winters, with no summers in between. Mankind will become so desperate for food and other necessities of life that all laws and morals will fall away, leaving only the bare struggle for survival. It will be an age of swords and axes; brother will slay brother, father will slay son, and son will slay father.

    The wolves Skoll and Hati, who have hunted the sun and the moon through the skies since the beginning of time, will at last catch their prey. The stars, too, will disappear, leaving nothing but a black void in the heavens. Yggdrasil, the great tree that holds the cosmos together, will tremble, and all the trees and even the mountains will fall to the ground. The chain that has been holding back the monstrous wolf Fenrir will snap, and the beast will run free. Jormungand, the mighty serpent who dwells at the bottom of the ocean and encircles the land, will rise from the depths, spilling the seas over all the earth as he makes landfall.


    Loki breaks free (Ernst H. Walther, 1897)
    These convulsions will shake the ship Naglfar (“Nail Ship”[2]) free from its moorings. This ship, which is made from the fingernails and toenails of dead men and women, will sail easily over the flooded earth. Its crew will be an army of giants, the forces of chaos and destruction. And its captain will be none other than Loki, the traitor to the gods, who will have broken free of the chains in which the gods have bound him.

    Fenrir, with fire blazing from his eyes and nostrils, will run across the earth, with his lower jaw on the ground and his upper jaw against the top of the sky, devouring everything in his path. Jormungand will spit his venom over all the world, poisoning land, water, and air alike.

    The dome of the sky will be split, and from the crack shall emerge the fire-giants from Muspelheim. Their leader shall be Surt, with a flaming sword brighter than the sun in his hand. As they march across Bifrost, the rainbow bridge to Asgard, the home of the gods, the bridge will break and fall behind them. An ominous horn blast will ring out; this will be Heimdall, the divine sentry, blowing the Gjallarhorn to announce the arrival of the moment the gods have feared. Odin will anxiously consult the head of Mimir, the wisest of all beings, for counsel.

    The gods will decide to go to battle, even though they know what the prophecies have foretold concerning the outcome of this clash. They will arm themselves and meet their enemies on a battlefield called Vigrid (Old Norse Vígríðr, “Plain Where Battle Surges”[3]).


    “Odin and Fenrir, Freyr and Surt” by Emil Doepler (1905)
    Odin will fight Fenrir, and by his side will be the einherjar, the host of his chosen human warriors whom he has kept in Valhalla for just this moment. Odin and the champions of men will fight more valiantly than anyone has ever fought before. But it will not be enough. Fenrir will swallow Odin and his men. Then one of Odin’s sons, Vidar, burning with rage, will charge the beast to avenge his father. On one of his feet will be the shoe that has been crafted for this very purpose; it has been made from all the scraps of leather that human shoemakers have ever discarded, and with it Vidar will hold open the monster’s mouth. Then he will stab his sword through the wolf’s throat, killing him.


    “Thor and the Midgard Serpent” by Emil Doepler (1905)
    Another wolf, Garm, and the god Tyr will slay each other. Heimdall and Loki will do the same, putting a final end to the trickster’s treachery, but costing the gods one of their best in the process. The god Freyr and the giant Surt will also be the end of each other. Thor and Jormungand, those age-old foes, will both finally have their chance to kill the other. Thor will succeed in felling the great snake with the blows of his hammer. But the serpent will have covered him in so much venom that he will not be able to stand for much longer; he will take nine paces before falling dead himself and adding his blood to the already-saturated soil of Vigrid.

    Then the remains of the world will sink into the sea, and there will be nothing left but the void. Creation and all that has occurred since will be completely undone, as if it had never happened.

    Some say that that is the end of the tale – and of all tales, for that matter. But others hold that a new world, green and beautiful, will arise out of the waters. Vidar and a few other gods – Vali, Baldur, Hodr, and Thor’s sons Modi and Magni – will survive the downfall of the old world, and will live joyously in the new one. A man and a woman, Lif and Lifthrasir (Old Norse Líf and Lífþrasir, “Life” and “Striving after Life”[4]), will have hidden themselves from the cataclysm in a place called the “Wood of Hoddmimir” (Hoddmímis holt), and will now come out and populate the lush land in which they will find themselves. A new sun, the daughter of the previous one, will rise in the sky. And all of this will be presided over by a new, almighty ruler.[5]

    The Meaning of Ragnarok for the Vikings

    As the above implies, two versions of the myth of Ragnarok seem to be present in the Norse sources. In one of them, Ragnarok is the final end of the cosmos, and no rebirth follows it. In the other, there is a rebirth. What are we to make of this conflict?

    In my book The Viking Spirit: An Introduction to Norse Mythology and Religion, I argue that the version in which no rebirth occurs is the older, more purely pagan view, and the rebirth story is an addition that developed only late in the Viking Age under Christian influence. Ragnarok had been reinterpreted to describe the religious transformation the Viking world was undergoing, in which the old gods were indeed dying, but were also being replaced with something else. A relatively short article such as this isn’t the place to present this argument and the evidence for it as I do in the book, so if you want to see my reasoning, read the book. Half a chapter is devoted to this topic. But here’s the gist: the rebirth addition comes only from three late sources, one of which was dependent on the other two, while all previous mentions of Ragnarok speak only of the destruction, and never of any kind of rebirth.

    What would such a belief have meant for the Norse?

    Imagine that you’re a Viking. You live in a world that you know will one day be obliterated. The very gods themselves will perish with it. Nothing of value will be spared – not even the memory of anything that ever had value. How does such a world look to you in the present moment, given that the seeds of that final destruction have already been sown, and the world is careening inexorably toward that final decisive moment? Would this not cast a dark hue of tragedy, senselessness, and futility over the world and everything that occurs within it? Indeed, it’s hard to escape the conclusion that this was how the Vikings saw the world on one level.

    Yet Ragnarok also carried another meaning for them, one which complemented yet altered this tragic view of life.

    In addition to being a prophecy about the future that revealed much about the underlying nature of the world along the way, the myth of Ragnarok also served as a paradigmatic model for human action. For the Vikings, the tale didn’t produce hopelessness as much as inspiration and invigoration. Just as the gods will one day die, so too will each individual human being. And just as the gods will go out and face their fate with dignity, honor, and courage, so too can humans. In this view, the inevitability of death and misfortune should not paralyze us, but should instead spur us to hold noble attitudes and do noble deeds – the kind worthy of being recounted by bards many generations after we ourselves are gone.
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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  3. #1262
    Senior Member Lord Sidious's Avatar
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    Ní siocháin go saoirse

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    I like the music. It has an epic feel to it.

    I do not like the growly/screamy vocals.

    I never have. That's where rock enters a realm I don't listen to. I.e. heavy and death metal. I just can't stand the growly and screamy voices.

    Even with a mainstream band like Guns and Roses, I cannot listen. If I can take Axl Rose's voice out of it, I like it. But his voice is nails on a chalkboard to me.

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    Senior Member Lord Sidious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    I like the music. It has an epic feel to it.

    I do not like the growly/screamy vocals.

    I never have. That's where rock enters a realm I don't listen to. I.e. heavy and death metal. I just can't stand the growly and screamy voices.

    Even with a mainstream band like Guns and Roses, I cannot listen. If I can take Axl Rose's voice out of it, I like it. But his voice is nails on a chalkboard to me.
    Gimme your grid coordinates.
    I need em for the forward air controller...............
    Ní siocháin go saoirse

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  9. #1265
    Senior Member United States Chester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    I like the music. It has an epic feel to it.

    I do not like the growly/screamy vocals.

    I never have. That's where rock enters a realm I don't listen to. I.e. heavy and death metal. I just can't stand the growly and screamy voices.

    Even with a mainstream band like Guns and Roses, I cannot listen. If I can take Axl Rose's voice out of it, I like it. But his voice is nails on a chalkboard to me.
    More like this?

    All the above is all and only my opinion. It may contain some sharing of components of my current operating strategy and some foundational components of my current world view - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

    It's just a ride

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGD...vgBsCHmlC13jOg

    https://www.facebook.com/samhunter57

    http://merlynagain.blogspot.com/

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  11. #1266
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    I don't need to be put out of my misery just yet. But I'll get out the aunt-aircraft gear just in case.


    The lead singer of Disturbed sounds fantastic in this song. He clearly has a great voice. But I probably would not like many of their other songs.

    I really liked Creed, when Scott Stapp was singing with them. I even liked the other guy when they went by the name Alter Bridge. I didn't know until well after listening to them that they had been a Christian rock band.

    The hardest music I like is probably exemplified by Nine inch Nails which I have posted here. Trent Reznor definitely screams in it. Even my husband liked Pretty Hate Machine. But not all the recordings. Many were too dark in content. Trent crafts a song with mastery and he does it all himself for the most part.

    I've always liked Led Zeppelin but I don't consider it heavy metal. I've liked rock and roll since I was a little girl, as in 6 or 7 years old. My parents did not listen to it so I suppose my exposure was through my brother who would put it on when they weren't around.

    I liked AC/DC as well and he does scream. His voice is not really something I liked. I suppose the music over-road that aspect. But I just cannot abide Axl.

    I like harder rock and roll than my husband, and he has introduced a great deal of music to me that I would otherwise never have discovered. Ironically, I suppose, that includes a huge number of female artists.

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  13. #1267
    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    I really liked Creed, when Scott Stapp was singing with them. I even liked the other guy when they went by the name Alter Bridge. I didn't know until well after listening to them that they had been a Christian rock band.
    Yikes! I didn't even know that.

    Musically, Creed was okay, but it was a band from a time when everyone was trying to sound like Eddie Vedder (of Pearl Jam), and Scott Stapp was definitely trying very hard to go there. He actually pulled it off quite well.

    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    I've always liked Led Zeppelin but I don't consider it heavy metal.
    It isn't ─ it's blues-inspired hard rock ─ but back at the time, heavy metal was still a fairly new thing, and the "heavy metal" moniker was applied quite gratuitously to all kinds of progressive bands like Led Zeppelin ─ even to Jimi Hendrix, by some sources.

    Of course, the only real heavy metal band in those days was the band that invented it all, i.e. Black Sabbath. And Ozzy wasn't exactly screaming either. The screaming was a thing of the 1970s and started with bands like Judas Priest, the singer of which bears the same name as a certain member here whom I shall not name.

    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    I liked AC/DC as well and he does scream. His voice is not really something I liked. I suppose the music over-road that aspect. But I just cannot abide Axl.
    AC/DC is considered hard rock, but it's not metal either. It's actually a very hard form of blues rock. And what many guitarists are even surprised to find out, Angus Young doesn't have quite as much distortion on his guitar as you'd suspect. His sound is actually relatively clean, but it's the tight groove laid down by his late brother Malcolm ─ and now, their nephew Stevie Young ─ on rhythm guitar, who used very heavy strings on a semi-hollowbody Gretsch with only a single pickup (in the bridge position).

    As for Axl Rose, I have to agree with you. I also really don't like his voice, although it must be said that Guns 'n' Roses wouldn't quite sound the same anymore with another singer. But then again, I've never really been a Guns 'n' Roses fan. There was always something about their sound that turned me off. Maybe it's that "Gibson Les Paul through a Marshall amp" sound, because although there's nothing wrong with that sound in and of itself ─ it definitely has its purposes ─ I somehow feel that it doesn't belong in that kind of music.

    As you've probably already noticed, I have a very eclectic taste, but when it comes to metal, nothing has been the same for me anymore since I discovered Animals As Leaders. What those guys are doing is out of this world. They're not the only band with that kind of progressive sound, although not all of them are as good. Periphery used to come close, but they're different now that they've recruited a singer.


    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  15. #1268
    Super Moderator Wind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    I liked AC/DC as well and he does scream. His voice is not really something I liked. I suppose the music over-road that aspect. But I just cannot abide Axl.
    AC/DC is the only band I've seen live and I went to another city just to be able to see them, that was almost ten years ago during the summer. It was when I had my rock phase, before that I had Metallica phase towards the end of my teen years. I really think AC/DC was and is a great band, but I don't like to listen such fast paced or even semi-aggressive music anymore unless I feel that there is some pent-up energy inside myself. Sometimes yes, but not often. I mainly like the electronic guitar playing. Lynyrd Skynyrd's few songs are incredible in that sense... I think Free Bird is the greatest rock song ever probably. I did like Guns and Roses too even though I'm not so into Axl Rose.

    I can't stand growly/screamy vocals either, and generally I don't like music with negative or heavier tones even though I could say that I liked some of the songs from Rammstein. Heavy metal like Rainbow or Deep Purple are amazing though. I could say that I'm heavily attracted to music made in the 70's.
    Last edited by Wind, 3rd May 2020 at 16:22.

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  17. #1269
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    I went to an NAIA college basketball game with a friend around 1986 to watch a local All-American player, Brian Robinson, he was an awesome player, playing with likes of the best Kansas players at the time, on Team Kansas at the ACC national championships (I saw David Robinson play for the Armed Services team at this particular tournament). In any case, while driving back from the city, I heard a song by a metal band that I literally have searched for years to find so I could listen to more of their music and hear that song again. 1986 is the year but I still have no idea who it was?

    It wasn't this guy...
    Last edited by Emil El Zapato, 3rd May 2020 at 17:25.
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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    Senior Member Lord Sidious's Avatar
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    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISXnYu-Or4w

    This is, as has been said, where it all started.
    The original and the bestest...............
    Ní siocháin go saoirse

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    I did like some Black Sabbath. Again, influenced by my brother.

    He, by the way, is mostly a fan of Dave Matthews and Grateful Dead cover bands, primarily Dead and Company. He hasn't listened to hard rock in a long time.

    He was even a fan of Jack Johnson.

    That was always weird to me.

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    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Already posted once before, but this one's for Sidinugget.


    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Senior Member Lord Sidious's Avatar
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    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63bXfm5QexA

    Overkill with the infamous ''Bomber'' lighting rig............
    Ní siocháin go saoirse

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  27. #1274
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    This can mean only one thing...Sidious...you have the moon and venus in opposition...
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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  29. #1275
    Senior Member Lord Sidious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    This can mean only one thing...Sidious...you have the moon and venus in opposition...
    When you use the dark side of the force, there is no opposition.
    You don't recall Order 66?
    Ní siocháin go saoirse

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