Capitalism, Corporatism & American Exceptionalism

[bsbray]

What's so great about capitalism?

Even the people who developed the theory for it thought it was a terrible idea, unless it was policed by the government to keep markets fair. Unrestrained greed is not something to be proud of.

[blufire]

What's so great about capitalism?

Even the people who developed the theory for it thought it was a terrible idea, unless it was policed by the government to keep markets fair. Unrestrained greed is not something to be proud of.

I know what you are saying bsbray but I would like to throw out another perspective.

Without unbridled capitalism we would not have the advances and technology we have today. Capitalism is equal to competition and if that competition is squelched so is the creativity and desire for advancement and achievement.

When people who are ‘geared’ toward this type of success with no matter the cost and if they feel fairly confident they will reap the rewards of their success (money, fame, power) they will work very hard toward achieving their goals.

And yes those who set this level of capitalism also recognized the negatives but also saw the positives were greater. Trade off.

........

[bsbray]

The Europeans who sailed to the Americas did not do so in order to escape tyranny. They were mainly adventurers, industrialists, criminals and other troublemakers, who were tempted by the thought of exploring and exploiting "the other continent", and upon arriving there, they found that this "unexplored land" was actually inhabited by indigenous people who lived in perfect harmony with nature.

From what I understand most of them were debtors, religious refugees and criminals. Maybe some early adventurers and later some industrialists but the people making the big bucks were back in Europe with monopolies on the imports. A lot of people came here to escape incarceration for owing money in Britain. To this day in the US it is illegal to jail someone for simply owing money.

Also a lot of Scots, Irish, Germans, Poles and Italians were arriving here since colonial times, besides the slave importation which of course was not voluntary. The voluntary migrations were mostly because of economic hardship in Europe. What happened to the Native Americans was terrible, but once they were run off from the land, a lot of these European immigrants actually owned their own land for the first time and had the freedom to do whatever they wanted on it, and the peace of often not even having any neighbors for miles. They didn't have to worry about nobles or landlords or anyone telling them what to do. Any kind of government interference at this point was tolerated at best. I think this was really the fertile ground (no pun intended ) from which the rebellious mentality came about that ultimately led to the colonists taking strong resentment to the demands of the British government, and then forcing them out.

There is a completely different social situation in this country today and we are basically going to have to re-evaluate what we are doing and where we are going. This is not anywhere near the same country as in the late 1700's.

[bsbray]

I know what you are saying bsbray but I would like to throw out another perspective.

Without unbridled capitalism we would not have the advances and technology we have today. Capitalism is equal to competition and if that competition is squelched so is the creativity and desire for advancement and achievement.

Competition is not the problem with unrestrained capitalism. Competition is what we want.

What we don't want is when one entire sector of industry is monopolized by a handful of companies who then all make deals with each other, maybe even merge into a conglomerate. Then there is no reason to develop anything new because there is no competition. Then the bottom line (making as much money as possible) drives the monopolizing corporations to start making inferior products without lowering prices, and maybe even while raising them.

The US government today does not even try to protect us from monopolies. There is rampant cronyism. Companies like Halliburton are awarded no-bid contracts for military or energy projects without even considering the quality of work or if another company could do it more cheaply. Wal-Mart, which makes more money every year than most countries on this planet, is allowed to move into small towns everywhere and kill local businesses, while shipping in their products largely from overseas, including sweatshops.

[AscensionQuest]

What's so great about capitalism?

Even the people who developed the theory for it thought it was a terrible idea, unless it was policed by the government to keep markets fair. Unrestrained greed is not something to be proud of.

You should drop by the Andrea Tanataros Restaurant in Pennsylvania and shout out that question REALLY LOUD and see what happens. LOL

BTW, The Iron Fist of Socialism is not something to be proud of.

In the USA we reward success !

[AscensionQuest]

I know what you are saying bsbray but I would like to throw out another perspective.

Without unbridled capitalism we would not have the advances and technology we have today. Capitalism is equal to competition and if that competition is squelched so is the creativity and desire for advancement and achievement.

When people who are ‘geared’ toward this type of success with no matter the cost and if they feel fairly confident they will reap the rewards of their success (money, fame, power) they will work very hard toward achieving their goals.

And yes those who set this level of capitalism also recognized the negatives but also saw the positives were greater. Trade off.

........

Mark Zuckerberg worked very hard over many years to make Facebook what it is today.

He did need the assistance of a Venture Capitalist ( $500,000 ) but after that Facebook took off!

Now Mark Zuckerberg is a Billionaire! Good movie to watch: Social Network.

Only in America!

[modwiz]

What's so great about capitalism?

Even the people who developed the theory for it thought it was a terrible idea, unless it was policed by the government to keep markets fair. Unrestrained greed is not something to be proud of.

Only works if the gubmint is policed by the people they represent. Without a conscious and involved population one gets collusion and tyranny. Not a thing wrong with basic, organic capitalism. Enlightened business people would be a boon to their societies rather than the parasites they too often become.

[bsbray]

You should drop by the Andrea Tanataros Restaurant in Pennsylvania and shout out that question REALLY LOUD and see what happens. LOL

BTW, The Iron Fist of Socialism is not something to be proud of.

In the USA we reward success !

If you have make references to the Soviet Union to make your beliefs look good then that's already a bad sign.

I wonder how many people your Greek friend is working for 30-40 hours a week now thanks to Obamacare. My guess is few, if any.

Dick Cheneys and David Rockefellers are the types who are really being "rewarded" with "success."

[bsbray]

Mark Zuckerberg worked very hard over many years to make Facebook what it is today.

Mark Zuckerberg is David Rockefeller's grandson. You know, the banker grandson of the oil tycoon who has so much money that he hides it in "charities" so you'll never see his face in Forbes. Watch anyone else get a $500,000 loan to get an internet business rolling.

Tell me more about how hard the grandson of a Rockefeller works to make a massive data-collecting business mined by the intelligence agencies.

[Aragorn]

Without unbridled capitalism we would not have the advances and technology we have today.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Many of the high-tech innovations also come from the military-industrial apparatus.

Capitalism is equal to competition and if that competition is squelched so is the creativity and desire for advancement and achievement.

That's exactly what's wrong with it -- or at the very least, one of the things most wrong with it. We've got a society built upon competition, rather than upon cooperation.

When people who are ‘geared’ toward this type of success with no matter the cost and if they feel fairly confident they will reap the rewards of their success (money, fame, power) they will work very hard toward achieving their goals.

Considering that all of the resources belong to all of humanity as custodians of this planet -- which in turn gives us these resources -- there you have another flaw of capitalism, and of the financial-economic system as a whole.

And yes those who set this level of capitalism also recognized the negatives but also saw the positives were greater. Trade off.

One result of capitalism is also an ever-increasing degree of industrialization, which leads to an equally fast decreasing quality of production. Another result of (specifically) unbridled capitalism is that it also inevitably leads to corporatism and monopolism on the one hand, and to a numb, mindless and materialistic consumerist society on the other hand. That which is now the United States of America as it exists on this very day is the textbook example of why capitalism and consumerism are Bad Ideas™.

[bsbray]

Aragorn, I can understand where you're coming from that competition is ultimately not preferable to a situation where everyone would just work together. But all western economies are operating on some level on competitive models, though governments may subsidize some companies and industries. Maybe in some European cultures people still have enough pride for their country to do quality work to the best of their ability in these situations, but a lot of the time when the government subsidizes companies there does not seem to be as much effort. Or especially if the government allows a monopoly to develop, terrible things happen, both because people are greedy. The way our system is set up to work right now, money is the biggest motivating factor and nothing else.

I don't know who said it first, but it was pointed out a long time ago, that in an unrestrained capitalist society, only the greediest, most cut-throat people will rise to the top. Which is exactly what has happened. It is what one could expect to happen when you really think about it. People who are generous to their employees and reinvest lots of money into their business may make a good quality product, but the greedy person who finds ways of cutting costs and delivered more product, not to mention bribery and everything else that can be accomplished with large amounts of money, will eventually run them out of business. This happens all the time.

[Aragorn]

You should drop by the Andrea Tanataros Restaurant in Pennsylvania and shout out that question REALLY LOUD and see what happens. LOL

BTW, The Iron Fist of Socialism is not something to be proud of.

In the USA we reward success !

[Aragorn]

Aragorn, I can understand where you're coming from that competition is ultimately not preferable to a situation where everyone would just work together. But all western economies are operating on some level on competitive models, though governments may subsidize some companies and industries. Maybe in some European cultures people still have enough pride for their country to do quality work to the best of their ability in these situations, but a lot of the time when the government subsidizes companies there does not seem to be as much effort. Or especially if the government allows a monopoly to develop, terrible things happen, both because people are greedy. The way our system is set up to work right now, money is the biggest motivating factor and nothing else.

Well, there aren't any countries left in Europe where industrialization has not yet set foot. The European Union as it currently exists was specifically created around capitalism -- more than around socio-political, environmental or military considerations -- albeit that we do have various antitrust laws at the European level. Both Microsoft and Google have already had a taste of those laws over here. However, if/when the TPP and TTIP come into effect, then those antitrust laws will of course be moot. TPP and TTIP are the very foundations of a global corporatist dictatorship. Those two treaties effectively put the corporations themselves in charge of both the legislative and the judicial branches. All that is then still needed to finalize an effectively fascist regime is a sock puppet in the executive branch. And there sure is a large enough offer of those to pick from.

One of the biggest problems of the world is that capitalism is all-pervasive. Even if a single industrialized nation decides to stay with socialism (or some variant thereof), then that nation still depends on international trade for its logistics, and international trade is by definition capitalist in nature. This is something the TPP and TTIP will emphasize even more than the already existing economic treaties do. And as for quality of production, most countries are now having lots of their stuff -- especially electronics -- produced in China, South Korea and Indonesia. Even Japan doesn't qualify anymore, given that production in Japan is by now more expensive already than in the aforementioned three countries. Anything produced closer to home is considered boutique stuff, and equally comes with a boutique price tag.

I don't know who said it first, but it was pointed out a long time ago, that in an unrestrained capitalist society, only the greediest, most cut-throat people will rise to the top. Which is exactly what has happened. It is what one could expect to happen when you really think about it. People who are generous to their employees and reinvest lots of money into their business may make a good quality product, but the greedy person who finds ways of cutting costs and delivered more product, not to mention bribery and everything else that can be accomplished with large amounts of money, will eventually run them out of business. This happens all the time.

Exactly.

[ntr]

Reading between the lines, many of you sound like you're looking forward to the revocation of freedoms here in the USA and a authoritarian rule that'll "enforce" reconciliation and 'revolutionary' enslavement to right past wrongs. That's how strong your anti-Americanism is.

[Aragorn]

Reading between the lines, many of you sound like you're looking forward to the revocation of freedoms here in the USA and a authoritarian rule that'll "enforce" reconciliation and 'revolutionary' enslavement to right past wrongs. That's how strong your anti-Americanism is.

I for one am not looking forward to the revocation of freedoms in the USA -- for whatever few freedoms still remain there. I am only looking forward to the abolition of the financial-economic "money magic" system. In addition to that, as a non-American, I also don't buy into American Exceptionalism.