Thoughts going out to past members...

[modwiz]

Isn't that what the moderators are, in this metaphor?

Yes, except you guys get stuck with the "weeding", generally the least pleasant part of gardening. At least weeds are not misguided in being weeds and are just in the wrong place to be of utility.

[bsbray]

Isn't that what the moderators are, in this metaphor?

Right, even if it's the hired guy who has to tell the jerk spraying vinegar on all the plants to cut that out, someone still has to do it, as uncomfortable of a situation as it may be.

I heard that mixing vinegar and water and spraying it on tomatoes was a good method for combating fungal infections on the plants. I'll say something for anyone who wants to grow tomatoes. That was a terrible idea and it killed my tomatoes worse than the fungus itself. Out of about 30 plants I got only 1 or 2 good tomatoes that year.

[ERK]

One can always practice Fukuoka style gardening (pretty sure Agape would agree here).

[Agape]

Isn't that what the moderators are, in this metaphor?

The Earthkeepers right ? Me guess I am a pilgrim ... whom have I heard that say ....

6. Der Neugierige


Ich frage keine Blume,
Ich frage keinen Stern,
Sie koennen mir alle nicht sagen,
Was ich erfuehr so gern.

Ich bin ja auch kein Gaertner,
Die Sterne stehn zu hoch;
Mein Baechlein will ich fragen,
Ob mich mein Herz belog.

O Baechlein meiner Liebe,
Wie bist du heut so stumm?
Will ja nur eines wissen,
Ein Woertchen um und um.

Ja heisst das eine Woertchen,
Das andre heisset Nein,
Die beiden Woertchen schliessen
Die ganze Welt mir ein.

O Baechlein meiner Liebe,
Was bist du wunderlich!
Will's ja nicht weitersagen,
Sag, Baechlein, liebt sie mich?

http://opera.stanford.edu/iu/libretti/mullerin.html

Der Neugierige
The Need to Know
Die Schöne Müllerin The Miller's pretty Daughter
Müller

I shall not ask a flower
Nor shall I ask a star,
For they just cannot tell me
What the answers are.
You see, I am no gardener
And the stars are up too high,
So, my brook, you tell me,
Did my heart tell me a lie?
Brook, my dearest friend,
Say, why so still today?
It is only one small word
I want to hear you say.
One small word is ‘yes’
The other one is ‘no’.
These words mark the limits
Of the world I know.
Oh brook, my dearest friend,
This is not at all like you,
You know that I’ll tell no-one else;
Does she love me? Tell me, do!

[blufire]

98 or 99 people putting up with one or two assholes is a sign of the dysfunction of the former. How do a few mods exceed the 'power' of a few to control? Because they do not own their own power. That said, it is obvious too many people are emotionally retarded and NEED to have moderators manage their affairs for them. However, the mods have ban and removal tools that the rest do not possess.

All of this would cease if people practiced personal responsibility for their actions. Removal of trolls should not be an issue but, a fractured and dysfunctional community wavers and is uncertain of what they support and things fall into chaos.

What is going on in this forum is a powerful learning experiment towards the self-governance many claim they want. The words are there but the actions and behaviors are not.

Want self-governance? Then walk the talk.

Most interesting word there modwiz . . . . . did you intend to use the word ‘experiment’ or did you mean ‘experience’? I’m asking because as a rule you choose your words carefully and succinctly.

[Dreamtimer]

My Mom told me, in regards to my Dad, take the full measure of the man. So here, I take the full measure of the forum. No picking and choosing. There are good ideas and information presented regularly as well as some very rich older threads. I feel a lack when I can't converse with some former members about their awesome posts. But I comment anyway so it's known and maybe others can join in. This place is what we make it. It's where we put our energies.

Someone mentioned GLP. I visited there a couple times. Very strange. Total free-for-all. More recently I found that I couldn't even look at anything there without registering. I didn't.

I've visited a lot of forums, but never joined any until now. I like the mix of people and ideas here. I hope that many of the former members will return and contribute. Quality stands on it's own. If there isn't substance behind it, it will fade. TOT isn't fading, just changing. I believe those with substance can find a way to return and contribute and will be welcomed.

[Hermit]

At the risk of loosing my own membership:

If you want to see a reason why things are going the way they are, it's very simple and all you have to do is scroll up and read.

People are emotionally involved in a way that is far beyond what is required. Someone mentioned the way children behave in a preschool nursery. I would submit that integrity requires you simply stop playing the game, especially if you are a moderator. The above posts demonstrate the opposite of this. Perhaps for good reason. I suspect that the individuals who created and maintained this forum did so with the greatest of hopes of creating a community of equals who are willing to read, share information, and support each other.

I myself was one such individual who was ejected from another forum for raising issues that made the mods feel uncomfortable. In Stalinist Russian terms, I didn't support the party line, was ejected from the party, and then..."shot". I've maintained contact with many of the individuals who either left or were issued out of the party. What they have consistently told me is that the feeling that was once here is simply gone. They have suggested (and it is critical for everyone who reads this to understand that this is merely a description and not an inditement, I have little means to judge if what people are saying is true or not) that the editing of posts, removing of e-mail messages prior to them being read, actions the mods clearly have felt necessary for the integrity of the forum, were instead read as heavy handed and counter to what some would consider necessary for the "public good".

Now if those people are wrong, this post should stay here and not be edited or removed. If this post stays here, it means the mod team is in fact open to the idea of debate, discussion, not obsessed or nervous about trolls or attitudes or "drama". The reality is "drama" is simple an emotional response that another person finds objectionable, usually and many times in such cases because it brings to the surface some wrong that was done, or some truth that was ignored directly or indirectly.

I came over from another forum feeling battered, bruised, not listened to; strong bonds of friendship I had developed over long periods of time were snapped in two. People who said they had an interest in helping me find help for myself simply fell off the board, walked away. I was pointed here, I had very high hopes that the forum would be tolerant and strong enough to bend in the wind. I wasn't alone, there were and still are many people looking for an online presence, an online home, and I know there are many would come back in an instant.

We need to relax, push the chair away from the desk, turn the computer off, and take a few days to let the trigger tighten up again. People will return once they have confidence that their ideas won't be under threat, their opinions won't be under pressure.

And if they don't?

The reality here is the same as the reality anywhere else. When one leaves, another one will show up. The balance will return, and then the cycle will start all over again. You can take that to the bank.

I won't respond further to this thread. I'm going back into my garden. See everyone in a week. I hope.

[mojo]

Hi Milneman,
I hear what your saying. Just wanted to say the admin/mods share and grow together behind the scenes and feel I know them well and their strong integrity, and yes can only speak for myself, but in no way do I see this as a game with people's emotions.

[Church]

that the editing of posts, removing of e-mail messages prior to them being read,

This has NEVER been done here. We are well aware that people have said this, but it has literally never been done. What are we supposed to do, go around and start calling out the liars now? No way. There are better things to do with our time and energy. Truth always prevails in the end.

[Lord Sidious]

This has NEVER been done here. We are well aware that people have said this, but it has literally never been done. What are we supposed to do, go around and start calling out the liars now? No way. There are better things to do with our time and energy. Truth always prevails in the end.

Never?
As in from day one?
Surely you jest?

[modwiz]

Most interesting word there modwiz . . . . . did you intend to use the word ‘experiment’ or did you mean ‘experience’? I’m asking because as a rule you choose your words carefully and succinctly.

I meant experiment, not that it is a set up one. For an observer it is an experiment because it generates data.

[Church]

Never?
As in from day one?
Surely you jest?

Nope, no jesting here. Yes, as in from day one. Although, I should say I can't vouch for the time when I wasn't here, obviously. But not while I've ever been administrator here. I can only assume, based on some of the things that the previous administrator said before he unsubscribed, that it never happened in my absence, either.

[Lord Sidious]

Nope, no jesting here. Yes, as in from day one. Although, I should say I can't vouch for the time when I wasn't here, obviously. But not while I've ever been administrator here. I can only assume, based on some of the things that the previous administrator said before he unsubscribed, that it never happened in my absence, either.

You might need to get your memory checked.
YOU have done it yourself to my posts, or don't you remember all the drama resulting in my banning a few years ago?

[Church]

Of course I remember that... I was talking about the "removing of email messages" (which I interpreted to mean private messages). I admit I should have selected the quote better, so as not to include the part about editing posts. Yes, we do edit posts here when things are said that shouldn't have been.

[mojo]

The thread seemed to have drifted off topic including myself. It was meant to be viewed by guests but really knowing past members would peek in as guests and see we still have some in our thoughts. It wasn't a bad thing to detour, as words have to be said, but I think I missed the mark on the intent. My fault....Fortunately replies have been respectful. So with that in mind, wishing to say once more that those that have moved on, here's wishing them the best.