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Thread: Truth Is Often Spoken Of

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally posted by donk View Post

    For me, the best model I've understood is the probability/quantum physics type of thing where absolutes don't seem possible to realize, and statistically closer to absolutes (relatively, ie this table/3d reality is "solid enough" to accept that "lie" for the purposes of all but this and a few other types of discussions) is more important to find (practical) truths than THE elusive Truth...which seemingly according your "logic" can't exist anyway
    Good point, once you are trying to find "universal" truths, as in certainties, there just aren't any, no body even knows real basic fundamentals of existence like what matter or gravity are.

    Please tell me you have small children & I haven't just responded to a guy who habitually draws with crayons

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    Don't misunderstand; I am not suggesting that everything is lies. I am suggesting that everything that is said is a lie. Everything is what it is, but the words that describe and refer to everything that is are inherently not everything that is. I could describe the cup of coffee I am sipping or even the experience/method of sipping, yet those descriptions are vastly less adequate than the actual coffee or the observable phenomenon I would be experience/describing.

    P.S. What's wrong with drawing w/ crayons?

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    My working principle with "truth" is that I don't really care what an ultimate truth might me. Well, I do, but it's not a workable hypothesis for actively perusing something that's behind all the screens that I instinctively know are being held up by entities with ill intent towards me and most people.

    I'll call myself a truth seeker, for the sake of identity. But, in practical terms, all I'm really doing is conducting an investigation as best I know how.

    I rely, again, on my instinct to know what a crime is and is not.

    I tend to see this whole truther thing in the same light as a large scale police investigation. It doesn't help to get into relative existentialism when you're trying to collar a crook. I see my and 'our' current role as that of extracting as much evidence as possible from a crime scene and using it to track down the culprit(s).

    I see this process as only a preliminary action to get us up and running on a much better truth seeking path. Once we've taken the biggest lies out of the situation, we will still have no idea what "the truth" is but we'll be in far better shape to find it.

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  7. #19
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    If you end up in skepticism, your theory is balderdash.

    At least that's one way of looking at it.

    But then here's another way of looking at it.

    All truth is relative. Here's a story that demonstrates how dangerous that position really is.

    A friend of mine went to a religious service in which the minister spoke about the relative truth of religious belief, namely that there is an essence in every belief that is grounded in some greater universal truth, and as such, every truth that every person expresses should be respected.

    After the service, he went past the minister with the others in the congregation and shook hands as is the custom in many protestant denominations. He asked the minister to clarify, "So what I believe might not be the same as what you believe, but it should be respected as truth."

    The minister agreed.

    "Fine," says my friend. "I believe you're going to go to hell."

    The minister chuckled and said, "I need to restate my point! Every belief is relative and true, except *your* belief."

    So I ask you...how is that rational?

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    Moral relativism, and it's cousin, "personal truths", are a phenomenon I regard with caution, even acute distrust.

    What little I've read about relative values and the people who have historically espoused them, leave me almost calling for an exorcist.

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  11. #21
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    Amen!

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  13. #22
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    Quote Originally posted by Milneman View Post
    Amen!
    ok, here's the rub, for me.

    Modern political correctness IS Moral relativism, ON STEROIDS !

    Institutional relativism, Who'd a thunk it.

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    TRUTH, IMO, grows, changes and develops as consciousness grows, changes and develops.

    Truth is the facts (or some may say lies) that are agreed upon at a given time. The world is flat and the center of the universe, etc.

    Those individuals, societies and religions who see Truth as absolute, are those who are least willing to change and grow. The stronger we hold on to a Truth as we know it, the longer it will remain true, as we collectively hold it as an archetype. The ptb know this, which is why there is such strong programming to control truth - to keep us exactly where we are.

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  17. #24
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    Sometimes I let my kids use MY crayons
    What is the purpose of your presence?

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  19. #25
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    Quote Originally posted by Spiral View Post
    Good point, once you are trying to find "universal" truths, as in certainties, there just aren't any, no body even knows real basic fundamentals of existence like what matter or gravity are.

    Please tell me you have small children & I haven't just responded to a guy who habitually draws with crayons
    It is 'true' that there are no "universal"? truths but there IS the Truth.

    Saying there are no "universal" truths infers that everything is "universally" false.

    It is logically expected for one to say there is no Truth and there lies the rub.
    Last edited by JoeEcho, 11th February 2015 at 02:18. Reason: Edited critical incorrect word from lies to truths

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    So are logical expectations truth? They rub ya?
    What is the purpose of your presence?

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  23. #27
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    Quote Originally posted by JoeEcho View Post
    It is 'true' that there are no "universal"? truths but there IS the Truth.

    There is a Truth. The only truth lies within and everything else is collective consciousnesses. The truth within cannot be changed, manipulated or twisted, it is universal and eternal. It can lead us trough everything and can overcomes any obstacle. It is our way home and our true guide.

    Collective consciousnesses is a projection of our illusions which we as collective accept as truth. The acceptance itself makes the illusions so real and the more people say "this sounds true to me" the stronger the illusion becomes. One day it becomes a universal truth.
    Just like we all think we are our bodies. How many people will argue that this is the universal truth? And how many also know that we are more than that body? Then there is another group of those who KNOW who they really are.
    Truth can be hidden behind unmanageable concepts and philosophies in order to make it look incomprehensible object of arguments and long tirades.

    In reality the truths is simple, it lies within and is available to everyone. It looks different because we have the tendency to look on the things through different perspective but it is the same at the end.
    When you meditate and you reach your quietest place you feel the love so intense that you can't say it is something else you KNOW it is love. This is the universal truth and it is the same for every soul as far as my knowing spreads.

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  25. #28
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    Quote Originally posted by Milneman View Post
    If you end up in skepticism, your theory is balderdash.

    At least that's one way of looking at it.

    But then here's another way of looking at it.

    All truth is relative. Here's a story that demonstrates how dangerous that position really is.

    A friend of mine went to a religious service in which the minister spoke about the relative truth of religious belief, namely that there is an essence in every belief that is grounded in some greater universal truth, and as such, every truth that every person expresses should be respected.

    After the service, he went past the minister with the others in the congregation and shook hands as is the custom in many protestant denominations. He asked the minister to clarify, "So what I believe might not be the same as what you believe, but it should be respected as truth."

    The minister agreed.

    "Fine," says my friend. "I believe you're going to go to hell."

    The minister chuckled and said, "I need to restate my point! Every belief is relative and true, except *your* belief."

    So I ask you...how is that rational?
    The C of E ?

    Its a purely cultural fabrication, they just make shiz up as they go along, you are no more likely to get rationality off them than you are likely to find broccoli for sale in an ironmongers.

    I bet they are going to get put with the goats too

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  27. #29
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    Quote Originally posted by donk View Post

    I found it interesting how they set the robot in "Interstellar" to 90% truthful, seen that yet?
    90% truthful is a play on words/ symbols. 90% truthful = Lie, no matter how much one was to profess something like.... "but it is 'mostly' truthful and that is good enough for me".

    The fly/ speck in the ointment seems so trivial at first glance but that is its deception/ mind trick.

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  29. #30
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    Quote Originally posted by donk View Post
    So are logical expectations truth? They rub ya?
    Pleeeeese, obviously not.

    Logic is not the end all, be all.

    Truth is not logical. However, what many people refer to as 'truths' (which are lies in contrast) can be viewed through the logical eye and used for practical purposes.

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