I feel that I must say something about suicides on this thread. I wish to apologise if I open any terrible wounds for anyone, but some things must be addressed out in the open about the way we approach death by suicide.

In most of us there is some kind of horror about some one feeling they need to do this to themselves, yet it is a fact of life and more and more people are feeling that it is the only way out. Well, I'm worried about that fact, what is there in society, that things get so bad for them that they feel they must come this very hard way to find an out to what they go through. Have they failed? Not in my mind they haven't, if there reason for doing so is so bad to them, they have not failed so much as it just got too much for them. Haven't we all found this at some time in our life. Have we failed them? Once again, probably not in many ways, but I do think we are leaving them very little choice, or at least few other options.

If for example, they instead chose to have a really bad terminal illness, society would not condemn them, we would say, poor thing, what a terrible way to go, there would be no recriminations for wanting out of life. But, that would only add to their suffering, to put a painful illness on top of a pain filled life already. I have spent a lot of my life now looking at how our emotions are very much a large part of our illness, and so when we really want to go, we know our loved ones will be upset if we just want to go, or may like I was told, say, it's all in your mind,get over it and get on with life. OK, but it is still too painful to be here, so we often chose to have a life threatening illness, and they will reluctantly let us go.

How many of us believe that if we are fit and in no illness, that we can in fact go, it's not recognised as viable - yes if we are extremely good people then you would be able to ascend which is a common denominator for the idea of let's get out and go somewhere better. Can't we just leave when it is time to go? No? Not in the human mindset at the moment, so what do we leave the very deeply depressed and inwardly suffering other than suicide. Does counselling, take every away,? Not for the extremely lonely, or the old person who lives at the top of stairs and can no longer go down or up them. There are so many reasons for pain and suffering of the heartache kind.

What relief do they get when the law says to suicide is criminal, or the Church says they are sinners, or the "Right to Life people" decide they just have to keep living, because God's Law says "Thou shalt not kill". What happened to their right of Choice?

What I am going at pains to say is what an elder Native American said - I is not right, it is not wrong we do not know the whole story. I have found in looking into some suicidal deaths, was that the person was in too much suffering, they, because of their own nature, found it too hard to be in amongst what we are discovering this world can dish out to us, and so sometimes the Soul Keeper herself decides the best thing is to let them go by suicide, and sometimes the Higher self decides this as well and some times their own Soul tells them that this is the only possible answer for them. In the eyes of those above, they often feel they failed them, mabe for sending them to a life that was too sordid for them in some way, but they do not judge them for doing so. The Popes have no right to say it is wrong nor does anyone else who in fact does not know the whole story. It is time that the right of choice and Soveignty became more written and talked and taught about so that we are no longer being led by the nose into some one else idea of what is right for each individual person. In the same way as Ronin says he is still not decided about Angels then, he has the right to feel in his own way about that, I just explained how my own life came to believe in them, but he doesn't have to nor do you.

Most of what we have in our handed to us ideals is a hangover from the days of "The Golden Calf", following their stories which became disseminated out to the various religions, but still come from those same teachings of old. We know now that most of what was taught is a lot of lies to control us, and make us nice, gentle dumb, quiet folks who will not buck the system. Well, we are not Holy Sheep any more we are people, each individual and each with a right to exist or in fact die as we so wish. It's time to change those old stories and allow us to find our own way till hopefully we will not go to different places as I did to find statement like Suicide in Western Samoa, or Norway or Sweden is an accepted fact at high levels - when are we going to have real places that these suffering Souls can turn to? This pain and suffering must be seen as a part of all our needs to remove.