Israel 4 Last

[Fred Steeves]

I don’t understand very much of what you are saying.

Just stopped by to poke a little fun by pointing out, *using sarcasm*, how sad a marketplace of ideas this forum continues to spiral into. There's no intelligent conversation going on here any more, hasn't for some time now. Just sad, really sad...

So yeah. When it's not the usual daytime tv banter as previously pointed out, mainstream sources like Wikipedia The Guardian and the NYT being the new "research" tools of choice, thoughts not approved of getting dismissed out of hand by just lazily labeling them "right wing" -

while a dyed in the wool US based neocon is the new star political commentator but skates unchallenged.

Go figure...

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1jMQyJxTmI

[Wind]

How sad indeed Fred that you are just resorting to sarcasm these days and there's nothing more you want to contribute. Donk was pointing out certain things and it hurts to take some criticism? If that's all you want to contribute then perhaps this is not the place for you. Instead you would find likeminded people in places such as Avalon? Oh, but that didn't go too well now did it? Ruffling feathers.

When it comes to the topic, what bothers me is how Israel has the full suppport of US and Biden, the world silently watches from distance and now this slaughter has been going on for months. How is it different from Ukraine when Russia was butchering civilians there? UN seems toothless in matters like these. Then why the hell does it even exist when US and Russia can do what the hell ever they want?

[donk]

Just stopped by to poke a little fun by pointing out, *using sarcasm*, how sad a marketplace of ideas this forum continues to spiral into. There's no intelligent conversation going on here any more, hasn't for some time now. Just sad, really sad...

So yeah. When it's not the usual daytime tv banter as previously pointed out, mainstream sources like Wikipedia The Guardian and the NYT being the new "research" tools of choice, thoughts not approved of getting dismissed out of hand by just lazily labeling them "right wing" -

while a dyed in the wool US based neocon is the new star political commentator but skates unchallenged.

Go figure...

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1jMQyJxTmI

What “idea” were you trying to contribute? Or were you just acting like a typical right winger?

I still can’t understand what you were getting at in your post

Echo chamber? There like a half dozen people here…7, if you count Verne, but I mean that can express coherent thoughts. Yours are starting to be as incoherent as his

Honestly trying to decipher here: “while a dyed in the wool US based neocon is the new star political commentator but skates unchallenged.”

Who are you talking about?

When I called you out for spouting right wing talking points, that wasn’t to feed an echo chamber, like wind mentioned, I just was making an observation. Aragorn had already given valid “counter points” to most, if not all, of your assertions.

Which were the most important to you? I will “argue” or converse or whatever you want about them (beyond what Aragorn said, which from what I read, I totally agree with)…if they are in good faith

Aragorn has nearly identical politics to me, wind as well…I agree with chuckie and gio on a lot more than I don’t, and most all of Sid’s contributions. I do like to see what Verne has to “contribute”, but I do not live in the same reality that he does

I thought I shared a reality with you, and made comments out of shock that maybe I was wrong about that.

I’ll converse or argue or spar or whatever you wanna do, and I have laid out my current perspective…that should help you, I don’t understand why you are so pissy about it

[donk]

How sad indeed Fred that you are just resorting to sarcasm these days and there's nothing more you want to contribute. Donk was pointing out certain things and it hurts to take some criticism? If that's all you want to contribute then perhaps this is not the place for you. Instead you would find likeminded people in places such as Avalon? Oh, but that didn't go too well now did it? Ruffling feathers.

When it comes to the topic, what bothers me is how Israel has the full suppport of US and Biden, the world silently watches from distance and now this slaughter has been going on for months. How is it different from Ukraine when Russia was butchering civilians there? UN seems toothless in matters like these. Then why the hell does it even exist when US and Russia can do what the hell ever they want?

The saddest part is that now our country doesn’t want to give aid to a democracy being invaded by a malicious force (for what reason….other Pooty-poots whim?), a sovereign nation…an ally (I thought).

We are an empire of psychopathy…”rugged individuals” indeed.

[Fred Steeves]

How sad indeed Fred that you are just resorting to sarcasm these days and there's nothing more you want to contribute.

Well there we go, sarcasm is no longer an acceptable form of expression, perhaps not satire either? Therefore, the overall point still need not be recognized or addressed. BTW straight up is ineffective as well. Nothing is.

Donk was pointing out certain things and it hurts to take some criticism? If that's all you want to contribute then perhaps this is not the place for you.

I addressed his criticisms directly, yet he remains utterly baffled by my responses. As do you apparently. Of course this is no longer the place for me, that's been long clear as there is no longer any marketplace of ideas happening here. Terms like "marketplace of ideas" likely being viewed as a "right wing trope" by now.

Instead you would find likeminded people in places such as Avalon? Oh, but that didn't go too well now did it? Ruffling feathers.

Yep, it was seen as a good thing to challenge the solid right wing mantras there at the time; but now, as a matter of convenience, those efforts have been magically transformed into a thing to be frowned upon and criticized.

And btw, you remain a member there in good standing. Surprising you would use that one, "bro". I've also yet to see you challenge the status quo at "places such as Avalon"...

What “idea” were you trying to contribute?

Never mind...

Or were you just acting like a typical right winger?

There, you've nailed it again with little to no effort at comprehension of alternative thinking! Resorting to the lazy and comfortable just a typical "right winger" spewing their shit, that's as far as it goes folks move along.

Honestly trying to decipher here: “while a dyed in the wool US based neocon is the new star political commentator but skates unchallenged.”

FFS... Sigh, I'll take you by the hand as you're obviously not even paying attention to your own half dozen people here milling about and saying nothing of consequence.

Brought to you by a certain "senior monk" who would just assume report a post of mine, than argue on behalf of the crap material on behalf of the establishment he posts.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqA5NODRnQI

[donk]

Seriously Fred, are you ok? How is that a “star”? Can’t say I ever heard of him, or would watch that video

What are you so upset about? What important points need to be addressed, in your opinion?

I honestly don’t what your views are, outside of the few I skimmed in the J6 thread? (Where you mentioned you have views on Israel, which is what is thread was about)

What “thinking” of mine, do you think that I need to entertain “alternatives” to?

[Gio]

Just being ...

If it was up to me, he would be banned.

[Aragorn]

How sad indeed Fred that you are just resorting to sarcasm these days and there's nothing more you want to contribute.

That's not even sarcasm anymore, Brother. It's disdain. There's very little left here for Fred to be a contrarian about, and now he's upset.

Donk was pointing out certain things and it hurts to take some criticism? If that's all you want to contribute then perhaps this is not the place for you. Instead you would find likeminded people in places such as Avalon? Oh, but that didn't go too well now did it? Ruffling feathers.

If there is very little dialog going on here anymore nowadays, then it's because forums such as these are driven by a community, and in this case, what our little Shire started off with as a community all those years ago was mainly a group of disgruntled ex-PA members on the one hand and an audience looking for entertainment on the other hand.

There never was any real community spirit beyond the typical echo chamber crowd as what currently populates Project Avalon. We have tried to change this, and for a while, it actually worked. But we've also had to contend with all kinds of difficulties, such as the obsession with US politics and the fanaticism by which certain gullible people without a proper understanding of science keep on posting their ludicrous conspiracy theories here, with echo chambers and talking heads as their submitted evidence.

The above, coupled to the rise in popularity and usage of other and more generic social media, has caused our little Shire to get drained of members. After all, most were only here in order to be entertained and to have their preconceived notions confirmed by the echo chambers. And with a dwindling member base, there isn't much left anymore to provide entertainment, which in turn causes more people to leave the forum in search of greener — read: more entertaining — pastures. And they're not even using a proper computer anymore, because they're now coming here by way of their smartphones — no slant at you by the way, Phil. So there's also no routine checking-in involved anymore. It's all drive-by now.

It's a downward spiral from which there is no escape. Hell, every single new member who joined up here in the last two years has never even been back for a second visit, let alone that they'd actually be posting something. Again, drive-by smartphone surfers.

The reasons why Project Avalon survives is that first of all, they don't have any running-cost problems like we do — they receive ample donations — and secondly, there's the circumference of their member base, which keeps them at the top of that spiral. Add to this the populist strategy of its Fearless Leader™ to go with the flow, whatever that flow may be — and currently, it's the alt-right-sourced conspiracy theory posse and their Trump worship — along with Fearless Leader™'s even so strategic and, above all, opportunistic decisions regarding who to keep as a member — with or without protection — and who to kick out. And, Project Avalon, like the eponymous mythical place from the Arthurian legend, or if you will, like US American culture, is an island — no surprise there, given that the vast majority of PA's population is US American. They only know what is there on the island, and they only see what they want to see.

Our forum is dying, and we are perfectly (and painfully) aware of that. But we'll rather die being true to ourselves and our values than survive while selling out to the entertainment-seeking, anti-scientific and us-vs.them-addicted posses. We may be going down, but we'll go down with our heads held high — not in foolish pride, but in the knowledge that we'll have continued doing The Right Thing™ until this forum exhales its last breath.

Death before dishonor.

When it comes to the topic, what bothers me is how Israel has the full suppport of US and Biden, the world silently watches from distance and now this slaughter has been going on for months. How is it different from Ukraine when Russia was butchering civilians there?

Ukraine is not a NATO member — yet — and it has always been regarded as expendable. Israel is not, because it is pretty much the only military outpost of the American Empire in the Middle East. Saudi Arabia is an ally to the Empire, but not an actual outpost, given that it has its own very powerful regime.

Another difference is that Ukraine is quite wasteful on account of its military equipment, and quite demanding, with its president constantly traveling the world, asking for free weapons and ammunition. Israel is militarily pretty-self-sufficient — it has its own military-industrial complex.

UN seems toothless in matters like these. Then why the hell does it even exist when US and Russia can do what the hell ever they want?

Russia cannot do whatever it wants, or at least, not forever. It is pretty much being cut off by most of the UN, and it's busy depleting its own military resources — as was the West's plan all along, and the very reason for tricking Russia into invading Ukraine in the first place. For now, Putin can still carry on with the war for quite a while, but he's already falling back onto improvisation, the first sign of which was his enlistment of former prisoners on the battlefield, followed by the conscription of civilians into the military.

The American Empire, that's a different thing. Nobody in the UN dares stand up against the Empire, plus that the Empire is one of the only few nations with veto rights — which they have subsequently also been consistently deploying in every UN resolution regarding Israel and the war in Gaza — as well as that the Empire also doesn't recognize the International Criminal Court in The Hague. In other words, the Empire has legally covered itself in against any potential litigation over war crimes and human rights violations.

Furthermore, the Empire itself firmly believes in these measures as an adequate immunity against such litigation in part also because of the Empire's own culture, in which appearances are always more convincing and compelling than factual truth. Everything is and must always be officially deniable.

And — last but not least — let's not forget that it is still the Empire and its petrodollar that control the world economy. No other nation carries that much economical clout, even though many are coming closer nowadays — cfr. BRICS, et al.

[Wind]

I addressed his criticisms directly, yet he remains utterly baffled by my responses. As do you apparently. Of course this is no longer the place for me, that's been long clear as there is no longer any marketplace of ideas happening here. Terms like "marketplace of ideas" likely being viewed as a "right wing trope" by now.

Fred, do you still get your "news" from Tucker and Gonzalo? Well, perhaps not Gonzalo as he is gonezo.


Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nyvrMYGEz4


Apparently you have big issues with mainstream media sources, but there have been other sources here too besides the nutty ones Vern provides. You see, here we try to have a modicum of common sense. I think I'm as confused as Donk too is about your issues with us.

[Aragorn]

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoMuEBcusSk

[Wind]

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1kIszQU_QI

[Aianawa]

So much realness of an ugly corrupt world being seen of late.

And yes has always been there.

[Aragorn]

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1kIszQU_QI

You know, even though I can understand the psychological urge to continue pointing out the obvious and insisting on a cease-fire and a permanent solution to this age-old conflict — which has already existed for far longer than I've been alive — the sad truth of the matter is that everyone who calls upon support for the Palestinian people is simply preaching to the choir, and that the same deaf ears that caused the conflict in the first place will forever remain just as deaf in spite of the repeated pleading.

The Israeli government knows perfectly well what it's doing — and what it has been doing all along — but it is all done willingly and without any compassion, let alone respect for the Palestinians. They have even indoctrinated the population of Israel with the belief that the Palestinians are genuinely inhuman vermin that must be destroyed, and as Abby Martin has shown in her interviews of Israeli youths back when she visited the occupied territory, many Israelis actually truly believe the propaganda they've been fed by their government.

In this, the Israeli government is mimicking its bigger brother, the US Empire, which has indoctrinated its own population with American Exceptionalism — Americans are special because they're superior to any other nation, and Israelis are special because a bearded man in the sky gave the land to them, and because what Hitler and Stalin did to the Jews in the 1940s justifies every possible crime an Israeli can commit against a non-Israeli.

The United Nations should do better than words. Words are futile, and especially now, with the IDF and Netanyahu's far-right government in full rage. First of all, the Empire should be stripped of its veto right — a nation that itself commits war crimes should not have the right to veto anything — and secondly, the whole UN (minus the Empire, of course) should take economic and diplomatic measures against Israel until Israel recognizes the sovereignty of the Palestinian people and withdraws from the occupied regions. Starve Israel the way Israel starves the Palestinians. It's that easy.

What Hamas did was an inexcusable crime — and by far not the only one — but this is not about Hamas, and had the Israeli government respected and honored the Palestinian people from the beginning, then fanatical Islamists like Hamas would probably never have had a chance to become as dangerous as they are now. But when you corner a wounded animal the way the Israeli government has been doing with the Palestinian people for nearly eight decades, then you are creating a polarization, and then the wounded animal will grab hold of anything at all that could potentially save its existence, including the false hope promised by Islamic fundamentalists.

As a nation itself founded upon religious beliefs, the Israelis should have understood this all along, but apparently they don't. Or perhaps better put, they won't, because in reality it's not so much a matter of comprehension as it is a matter of malicious intent, and an opportunistic excuse to carry out a dream Israel has already had for decades: a Middle East without Palestinians.

Furthermore, the Israeli government doesn't even care about those hostages. Seriously, they don't. Those hostages are in fact only a very convenient excuse to hide behind in their genocide of the Palestinian people. If the hostages are returned to their families, then the excuse for this massacre of the Palestinians will be gone. The evidence? Hamas released three male hostages with bare upper bodies, so that it was clear from afar that these were unarmed hostages being released, not terrorists. And the IDF snipers killed all three of them on sight. Because they were alive, you see, and therefore they were moving, while anything that moves while inside Palestinian territory must be slaughtered on sight. Those are the Israeli government's orders.

So, there you go. Another post not worth reading, with nothing in it to be a contrarian about. My sincere apologies for its low entertainment factor.

[Emil El Zapato]

Well there we go, sarcasm is no longer an acceptable form of expression, perhaps not satire either? Therefore, the overall point still need not be recognized or addressed. BTW straight up is ineffective as well. Nothing is.



I addressed his criticisms directly, yet he remains utterly baffled by my responses. As do you apparently. Of course this is no longer the place for me, that's been long clear as there is no longer any marketplace of ideas happening here. Terms like "marketplace of ideas" likely being viewed as a "right wing trope" by now.



Yep, it was seen as a good thing to challenge the solid right wing mantras there at the time; but now, as a matter of convenience, those efforts have been magically transformed into a thing to be frowned upon and criticized.

And btw, you remain a member there in good standing. Surprising you would use that one, "bro". I've also yet to see you challenge the status quo at "places such as Avalon"...



Never mind...




There, you've nailed it again with little to no effort at comprehension of alternative thinking! Resorting to the lazy and comfortable just a typical "right winger" spewing their shit, that's as far as it goes folks move along.


FFS... Sigh, I'll take you by the hand as you're obviously not even paying attention to your own half dozen people here milling about and saying nothing of consequence.

Brought to you by a certain "senior monk" who would just assume report a post of mine, than argue on behalf of the crap material on behalf of the establishment he posts.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqA5NODRnQI

Why does right or left matter Fred, you have always claimed they were the same, but I have always pointed out that they are not. It should not matter to you beyond you are offended because you are by nature and history a rightie. You are still defending what you once claimed was your past...You don't need to do that, just accept reality as it is. If the lefties 'truly' were as bizarre as the right says they are I would have changed my thought processes to accommodate the truth.

[Emil El Zapato]

Just being ...

nah, Gio...he just wants to be offended by anything difficult to swallow. But I think I understand...he feels deeply about right versus left but has always denied it. He has the 'right' to conduct his life as he chooses. No big deal!