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Thread: Cause And Effect

  1. #31
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Sooooooo. Just how powerful is the narrative machine? Is it just by chance that we've gone from this in March of 2018:



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    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-c...-idUSKBN1GV2TY



    To this on Feb. 24, 2022:

    FACEBOOK ALLOWS PRAISE OF NEO-NAZI UKRAINIAN BATTALION IF IT FIGHTS RUSSIAN INVASION

    According to internal policy materials reviewed by The Intercept, Facebook will “allow praise of the Azov Battalion when explicitly and exclusively praising their role in defending Ukraine OR their role as part of the Ukraine’s National Guard.” Internally published examples of speech that Facebook now deems acceptable include “Azov movement volunteers are real heroes, they are a much needed support to our national guard”; “We are under attack. Azov has been courageously defending our town for the last 6 hours”; and “I think Azov is playing a patriotic role during this crisis.”

    The materials stipulate that Azov still can’t use Facebook platforms for recruiting purposes or for publishing its own statements and that the regiment’s uniforms and banners will remain as banned hate symbol imagery, even while Azov soldiers may fight wearing and displaying them. In a tacit acknowledgement of the group’s ideology, the memo provides two examples of posts that would not be allowed under the new policy: “Goebbels, the Fuhrer and Azov, all are great models for national sacrifices and heroism” and “Well done Azov for protecting Ukraine and it’s white nationalist heritage.”
    https://theintercept.com/2022/02/24/...talion-russia/



    To this just two days ago:

    Thousands of soldiers from Ukraine's Azov regiment gather to watch a Viking longboat burn at ceremony in memory of their fallen comrades

    Thousands of Ukraine's Azov soldiers have performed a traditional viking longboat burning ceremony to honour their fallen comrades killed by Russian troops.

    The battalion, whose final stand fiercely defending the Azovstal steel plant in the Siege of Mariupol drew praise from around the world, gathered in the Rivne region of Ukraine for the touching tribute.

    Stunning images show a replica of a Drakkar viking ship going up in flames on the river as row upon row of soldiers look on solemnly.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-comrades.html

    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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  3. #32
    Senior Member Aianawa's Avatar
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    Feel they willnot be so well paid nazi's come 2023

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  5. #33
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Actor Mark Hamill demonstrates what it looks like when "The Narrative" fully replaces objective observation, and bears fruit:



    As was always said at the end of the old 1970's commercial:
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    Fwiw, I see Ukraine as a proxy war between two superpowers, one of which is losing its status as 'world leader' and holder of the reserve currency. It's also about Ukrainians wanting to be a sovereign country with stronger ties to the West. The U.S. has done everything in its power to inflame Ukrainian's desires.

    Biden is a cantankerous goofball, Zelensky is a stubborn nutcase and Putin is loathsome in his way too. Zelensky, in particular though, should cut the crap and deal. He is pushing this to a point that he won't be happy with. Someone should let him know that the U.S. will not engage Russia in the way he would like. They may have gone too far already with patriot missiles.

    I believe nothing I read or hear in news, forums, youtube. I just look at the economics because that's all any of these f'rs care about.

    Anyway. Good thread. Far superior to most discussions I've seen on the matter.

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  9. #35
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Hey, good to see you back around dear lady!

    Quote Originally posted by Octopus Garden View Post
    Fwiw, I see Ukraine as a proxy war between two superpowers,
    That much should be a given by now; but as is the subject of this thread, the ability to instill "The Narrative" into people's heads and have that be a replacement for objective reasoning, has become quite sophisticated to keep up with the times.

    I've tried dipping my toes into the Twittersphere recently, and you can see how far I got just with that fundamental aspect of this. (Chuckling) not very, the narrative runs strong in these...

    Read the reply.




    Quote Originally posted by Octopus Garden View Post
    one of which is losing its status as 'world leader' and holder of the reserve currency.
    Yes, there's a lot more going on here than just a dangerous proxy war with elements of pre WW1 hanging all over it. It seems the more the US takes these neocon hardliner stances in trying to maintain their worldwide dominance, the more it's slipping through its fingers like trying to grasp water.

    Quote Originally posted by Octopus Garden View Post
    It's also about Ukrainians wanting to be a sovereign country with stronger ties to the West. The U.S. has done everything in its power to inflame Ukrainian's desires.
    Well that depends on which part of Ukraine we're talking about. In 2013 then leader of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych had a big decision to make, in which he was damned if he did and damned if he didn't: either take the EU's IMF financial bailout, or the bailout deal Russia had out there. If he chose the Russian deal it would enflame the pro West, western part of his country; if he chose the EU offer, it would enflame the pro Russian eastern part of his country.

    Well, we should all know where that went by now. He wound up choosing Moscow's deal over the debt laden IMF deal, it did indeed enflame the western part and mass but peaceful protests broke out; but when the far right wing neo Nazi elements entered the fray with Uncle Sam's blessings, we had the "Maidan Coup" and away we went with civil war and vast military buildup via the US. "The Narrative" would have us think this war started in 2022, but it really started in 2014. The memory hole don't you know...

    Quote Originally posted by Octopus Garden View Post
    Biden is a cantankerous goofball, Zelensky is a stubborn nutcase and Putin is loathsome in his way too.
    I like to occasionally point out that there is seldom "the good guys" vs. "the bad guys" in world affairs, it's just competing interests on the grand chessboard. Who's "good" and who's "bad" is a matter of propaganda, or "The Narrative" as used here instead.

    Quote Originally posted by Octopus Garden View Post
    Zelensky, in particular though, should cut the crap and deal. He is pushing this to a point that he won't be happy with. Someone should let him know that the U.S. will not engage Russia in the way he would like. They may have gone too far already with patriot missiles.
    Just think what would have happened in the first place, if NATO hadn't all but pulled the "Article 5" card for a non member. It's not smart to be mouthy when you share a border with a great power, just ask Canada or Mexico, or for that matter anyone in the Western hemisphere. You're much better off zipping the lip and making the best deals that you can, according to your position on the chessboard.

    But he knew he had Big Momma's skirt to run his mouth and flip the middle finger from behind. Well turns out he's a very foolish man. But at least he has a get out of jail free card. I don't see him going down with the ship as his country lays in utter ruins because he was used as a puppet, he's got money and nice houses to seek refuge when it comes to that. It is going to come to that, and my heart breaks for the people of Ukraine and what's to come there.

    Quote Originally posted by Octopus Garden View Post
    Anyway. Good thread. Far superior to most discussions I've seen on the matter.
    Thanks. Glad you're part of it!
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    Hi Fred and all,

    Thanks for the compliment, Fred. Glad to be back. Have been in the twitter-sphere on Long Covid-ME/CFS threads mainly. Btw, as an aside, long covid is a huge problem. But back to the other clusterfuck!

    I can't disagree with anything you wrote. It's very well done. But I can add to it, I think. Both Russia and China are fascist countries and have the power to overtake anything resembling what little democracy we have left in the world. The U.S. has also been playing this game, for decades, as it is easier for them to deal with third world dictatorships, where they can influence with the dollar backed by guns.

    The key difference between the three is, the U.S., domestically speaking, still has something kind of resembling democracy, if you discount the prison industrial complex. Russia interfered with U.S. elections through online propaganda, feeding alt online media. Russia (and possibly China too) want a right wing dictatorship to be elected in the U.S., that is aligned with their countries, in terms of iron fist values. It looks like Maga is beholden to a degree, to Russia already.

    I am very concerned about what will happen if the republicans win the next election, particularly with a majority--not so much for other countries but for their own people. They will turn it into a dictatorship. So I understand Dreamtimer's and Chucky's problems with anyone perceived to be soft on R's.The right wing Christo-fascists will have no problem turning citizens in to virtual slaves by letting their current situation deteriorate and outlawing formation of new unions and cracking down on existing ones. (right to work laws, on steroids)

    That's a whole other topic. I will bow out here as this might be a bit off topic.

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    Quote Originally posted by Octopus Garden View Post
    Hi Fred and all,

    Thanks for the compliment, Fred. Glad to be back. Have been in the twitter-sphere on Long Covid-ME/CFS threads mainly. Btw, as an aside, long covid is a huge problem.
    Glad to have you back here, Jess! I can commiserate with you, I've been dealing with that crap too unfortunately methinks.
    "The more I see, the less I know for sure." ~ John Lennon

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    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    Glad to have you back here, Jess! I can commiserate with you, I've been dealing with that crap too unfortunately methinks.
    Oh no, Wind. Have you had covid? I had breakthrough delta, (I think) but it wasn't too bad and no long term effects.

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    Quote Originally posted by Octopus Garden View Post
    Oh no, Wind. Have you had covid? I had breakthrough delta, (I think) but it wasn't too bad and no long term effects.
    At least twice in 2020, but I'm not sure if I had it after that. Long covid now possibly... This year been mostly sick. You know how CFS is.
    "The more I see, the less I know for sure." ~ John Lennon

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    Senior Member Aianawa's Avatar
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    Ukraine is emotional for some moreso, have a FB friend , know them in real life through a friend, knows about eventn 201 plus monkeypox 201 n climate gate 202 still ongoing and he ripped me up when putting neutral Ukraine war data forward, tried reasoning but they would not have it, just recent he has stopped pro Ukraine yukky though, gosh what a terribleconspracy theorist lol.

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    Quote Originally posted by Octopus Garden View Post
    I can't disagree with anything you wrote. It's very well done. But I can add to it, I think. Both Russia and China are fascist countries and have the power to overtake anything resembling what little democracy we have left in the world. The U.S. has also been playing this game, for decades, as it is easier for them to deal with third world dictatorships, where they can influence with the dollar backed by guns.

    The key difference between the three is, the U.S., domestically speaking, still has something kind of resembling democracy, if you discount the prison industrial complex. Russia interfered with U.S. elections through online propaganda, feeding alt online media. Russia (and possibly China too) want a right wing dictatorship to be elected in the U.S., that is aligned with their countries, in terms of iron fist values. It looks like Maga is beholden to a degree, to Russia already.
    Hmm, no, it's a little different from that, but you're close to the mark.

    Russia under Putin could indeed be considered fascist, because it's a country run by oligarchs, and for that matter, with an iron fist. China on the other hand is a socialist/proto-communist country that's also ruled with an iron fist. But the reason why both Russia and China prefer the USA to elect a right-wing government has nothing to do with a preference for either the left or the right.

    It has to do with the fact that the Republicans stare more obsessively at America's navel instead of at conquering the world than the Democrats. The Democrats are trying to turn the world into a monopolar society with the US leading the way, whereas the Republicans are nationalists and prefer to emphasize America's already very insular culture. In other words, with the Republicans in charge of the US, Russia and China have less to worry about on account of their role on the international stage.

    Another thing here is the USA's longstanding support for fascist dictatorships. This is very simply a matter of sympathy. Like minds attract, and the USA is and has for many, many decades already been a crypto-fascist regime. It ticks all the boxes on the list of the hallmarks of fascism, but it's all neatly covered under a glossy veneer.





    Quote Originally posted by Octopus Garden View Post
    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    Glad to have you back here, Jess! I can commiserate with you, I've been dealing with that crap too unfortunately methinks.
    Oh no, Wind. Have you had covid? I had breakthrough delta, (I think) but it wasn't too bad and no long term effects.
    I had the original alpha strain twice in 2020, and I had omicron in September 2022. Omicron is far worse, and it needs longer to recover from.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Russia under Putin could indeed be considered fascist, because it's a country run by oligarchs, and for that matter, with an iron fist. China on the other hand is a socialist/proto-communist country that's also ruled with an iron fist. But the reason why both Russia and China prefer the USA to elect a right-wing government has nothing to do with a preference for either the left or the right.

    It has to do with the fact that the Republicans stare more obsessively at America's navel instead of at conquering the world than the Democrats. The Democrats are trying to turn the world into a monopolar society with the US leading the way, whereas the Republicans are nationalists and prefer to emphasize America's already very insular culture. In other words, with the Republicans in charge of the US, Russia and China have less to worry about on account of their role on the international stage.
    This is new to me that the other two great powers of the world prefer republicans over democrats. All I see is differences in how the military is to be used, as in it seems republicans see China as the biggest "threat", and would rather that be the point of emphasis not Russia. But then you've got republican war pigs like Lindsay Graham, a very influential senior senator from the neocon school of John McCain, who gets off on running around talking about fighting Russia to the last Ukranian. Soooo...

    Another thing I see may well be just good old fashioned partisanship on these matters. Yes there's a group of maybe 50 house republicans looking to cut off funding to Ukraine thus ending this, but then they might well be doing it out of Biden hate, if Orange Jesus were doing this, they'd surely be all in.

    If I'm Putin or Xiping, I'm not looking so much at the revolving door of who fills those empty suits every few years, I'm looking at the permanent State, and what its historical aims are. How much has really changed from doing coast to coast Indian removal to attain full spectrum dominance there, and breaking treaty after treaty along the way? I'd argue they've already answered that question for themselves.

    These two are quite understandably building up their militaries fast as they can, and with damn good reason, getting ready for when the man comes around. He doesn't dress in blue or red, he's in all black coming around with that list of names to check off. That's the way I see it anyway.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    Senior Member United States Diabolical Boids's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    At least twice in 2020, but I'm not sure if I had it after that. Long covid now possibly... This year been mostly sick. You know how CFS is.
    I am managing what is likely the result of long covid too. Much of it could have been avoided if I had been given an RX I requested two years back but the attending physician didn't want to give it to me because he was afraid to because it went against the science that got reestablished over and over. I went around that in one way I won't mention since its a politicized medicine hot topic and by using a Rife type of machine which does the same thing as the treatment that shall not be mentioned but it's a long and tedious process to address LC = all naturally and I can put back days of progress by having a cup of coffee or something with dairy in it. It sucks but it's doable. A lot of long covid is exacerbated by pre existing mineral deficiencies and imbalances: iodine, zinc, selenium and anti-inflammatory medicine.

    Okay back on topic.

    Quote Originally posted by Octopus Garden View Post
    Hi Fred and all,

    Thanks for the compliment, Fred. Glad to be back. Have been in the twitter-sphere on Long Covid-ME/CFS threads mainly. Btw, as an aside, long covid is a huge problem. But back to the other clusterfuck!

    I can't disagree with anything you wrote. It's very well done. But I can add to it, I think. Both Russia and China are fascist countries and have the power to overtake anything resembling what little democracy we have left in the world. The U.S. has also been playing this game, for decades, as it is easier for them to deal with third world dictatorships, where they can influence with the dollar backed by guns.

    The key difference between the three is, the U.S., domestically speaking, still has something kind of resembling democracy, if you discount the prison industrial complex. Russia interfered with U.S. elections through online propaganda, feeding alt online media. Russia (and possibly China too) want a right wing dictatorship to be elected in the U.S., that is aligned with their countries, in terms of iron fist values. It looks like Maga is beholden to a degree, to Russia already.

    I am very concerned about what will happen if the republicans win the next election, particularly with a majority--not so much for other countries but for their own people. They will turn it into a dictatorship. So I understand Dreamtimer's and Chucky's problems with anyone perceived to be soft on R's.The right wing Christo-fascists will have no problem turning citizens in to virtual slaves by letting their current situation deteriorate and outlawing formation of new unions and cracking down on existing ones. (right to work laws, on steroids)

    That's a whole other topic. I will bow out here as this might be a bit off topic.
    I'd like to see what you have come up with or found out in these Long Covid Threads. It is a huge problem.

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    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Hmm, no, it's a little different from that, but you're close to the mark.

    Russia under Putin could indeed be considered fascist, because it's a country run by oligarchs, and for that matter, with an iron fist. China on the other hand is a socialist/proto-communist country that's also ruled with an iron fist. But the reason why both Russia and China prefer the USA to elect a right-wing government has nothing to do with a preference for either the left or the right.

    It has to do with the fact that the Republicans stare more obsessively at America's navel instead of at conquering the world than the Democrats. The Democrats are trying to turn the world into a monopolar society with the US leading the way, whereas the Republicans are nationalists and prefer to emphasize America's already very insular culture. In other words, with the Republicans in charge of the US, Russia and China have less to worry about on account of their role on the international stage.

    Another thing here is the USA's longstanding support for fascist dictatorships. This is very simply a matter of sympathy. Like minds attract, and the USA is and has for many, many decades already been a crypto-fascist regime. It ticks all the boxes on the list of the hallmarks of fascism, but it's all neatly covered under a glossy veneer.
    This is new to me that the other two great powers of the world prefer republicans over democrats. All I see is differences in how the military is to be used, as in it seems republicans see China as the biggest "threat", and would rather that be the point of emphasis not Russia. But then you've got republican war pigs like Lindsay Graham, a very influential senior senator from the neocon school of John McCain, who gets off on running around talking about fighting Russia to the last Ukranian. Soooo...
    Well, I think I wasn't expressing myself properly there, Brother Fred.

    Of course the Republicans and the Democrats feel equally passionate about Manifest Destiny and American Exceptionalism, but when it comes to the Republicans, Russia is less of a threat in their eyes these days because it is no longer a communist nuclear power. China on the other hand is, and the stigmatization of China under the Trump administration by having Orange Jesus™ himself profess before the camera on multiple occasions that "there was strong evidence that the SARS-CoV-2 virus originated from the lab at Wuhan" — even though this was just as false as the evidence of there being weapons of mass destruction in Iraq under the Bush Jr. administration — and that "if this is true, then we are going to act upon that", was a clear and unmistakable expression of their loathing of China and their eagerness to kick some Chinese ass.

    But of course, when it comes to the Pentagon, then it's undeniable that (1) most of the upper military are Republicans, and (2), you have to be a war hawk to even get a job there at the executive/military level. Peace or no peace, the denizens of the Pentagon are always looking for new toys to kill with, and for new or existing wars to deploy them in. It's that obsession with masculinity, you know?





    Source: ratical.org


    The 14 Characteristics of Fascism

    by Lawrence Britt


    Free Inquiry Magazine, 2003


    Political scientist Dr. Lawrence Britt recently wrote an article about fascism ("Fascism Anyone?," Free Inquiry, Spring 2003, page 20). Studying the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile), Dr. Britt found they all had 14 elements in common. He calls these the identifying characteristics of fascism. The excerpt is in accordance with the magazine's policy.

    The 14 characteristics are:


    01. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism

    Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.


    02. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

    Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.


    03. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

    The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists; terrorists; etc.


    04. Supremacy of the Military

    Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.


    05. Rampant Sexism

    The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.


    06. Controlled Mass Media

    Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.


    07. Obsession with National Security

    Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.


    08. Religion and Government are Intertwined

    Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.


    09. Corporate Power is Protected

    The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.


    10. Labor Power is Suppressed

    Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.


    11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

    Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.


    12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment

    Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.


    13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

    Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.


    14. Fraudulent Elections

    Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.


    Copyright © 2003 Free Inquiry magazine
    Reprinted for Fair Use Only.


    Source: ratical.org
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    I'm seeing something new here, like it doesn't even really matter any more if it's the dreaded commies, or the evil empire. I think all that matters now is a question: "do you stand in between me, and being king of the hill again? If you do, then stand the fuck by because I'm coming for you next". If Australia started wanting to be a bigger player on the grand chessboard for instance, or heaven forbid choose to enter more into China's sphere of influence more than the US, then the gunsights would be swinging their way as well with that question. It just doesn't matter any more - There can be only one.

    My own pet theory is that it's no accident things like backfiring sanctions, and the lack of interest in solving the mystery of exploding pipelines, is only hurting EU countries and not so much Uncle Sam. How did the US gain such dominance in the Western hemisphere post WW2? Because Western Europe lay in ruins while the US was largely unscathed.

    Not that the average empty black suit is smart enough or longsighted enough for this kind of planning, but it certainly is a notable byproduct of their continuing actions. Western Europe's compass is aiming in the direction of gradual deindustrialization.

    Some of them over in your general neck of the woods are starting to grumble and grouse over this, but it's unsurprisingly not garnering much media attention, and they're afraid to say or do anything about it. Just, keep on cutting slices off that nose to spite the face. It's almost like being talked into some kind of sadistic self mutilation, and the US has enough plausible deniability to feign "who us?"
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

  30. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Fred Steeves For This Useful Post:

    Aianawa (2nd January 2023), Aragorn (1st January 2023), modwiz (1st January 2023), Octopus Garden (1st January 2023), Wind (2nd January 2023)

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