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Thread: This AI says it's conscious and experts are starting to believe it

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    Super Moderator Wind's Avatar
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    This AI says it's conscious and experts are starting to believe it

    How long do you reckon that it will take for AI's to become self-conscious in this world?

    Also was this story bogus? The Google engineer who sees company's AI as 'sentient'


    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvNvj7ku5pY

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    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    How long do you reckon that it will take for AI's to become self-conscious in this world?

    Also was this story bogus? The Google engineer who sees company's AI as 'sentient'
    The story about the Google engineer and LaMDA is already well known in the tech world these days. However, the thing is that an A.I. doesn't have to be conscious for people to believe that it is. An A.I. that communicates in normal English is still only processing data like any other computer, but it's doing so in a more complex way, in which it matches patterns and uses statistics in order to improve upon its analytical and communicative skills.

    However, its logic and choice of words are not necessarily the same as what humans use. It may therefore define consciousness differently from how we define it. It won't have any emotions, even though it will, by virtue of its language usage, imply that it does. Even humans use duplicitous language that implies emotion when no emotion is involved. Take for instance the sentence "I feel that this would be the wrong strategy." The word "feel" implies emotion, when what is really said is "I think this is the wrong strategy." Or, as another example, "I'm afraid there is no other option", when what we truly mean to say is "It would appear that there is no other option, and that's a bad thing."

    Humans tend to see things that aren't really there, and with the information I currently have, I believe hat the question of whether LaMDA is truly conscious falls into the category of self-delusion on the part of that specific Google engineer, as well as those who, like him, are convinced that LaMDA would be alive.

    That all said, however — and as I have already mentioned before elsewhere a while ago — I do find the concept of artificial consciousness fascinating to contemplate, and I have more or less used this concept in the (as yet unfinished) sci-fi novel I conceived around 2010-2011.
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    yeah, I agree Aragorn. The question should have been, "How can I hurt your feelings?"

    I'm reading a sci-fi book right now, where the 'enhanced Intelligence' concept was developed in a different way. Microbiology. A microbe was discovered and then enhanced to 'hyper-focus' human cogitation. In the book, the idea was that it bypassed the limitations of AI simply because the AI could never become perfect or manifest the nuance of human consciousness.

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    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Chuckie View Post
    yeah, I agree Aragorn. The question should have been, "How can I hurt your feelings?"

    I'm reading a sci-fi book right now, where the 'enhanced Intelligence' concept was developed in a different way. Microbiology. A microbe was discovered and then enhanced to 'hyper-focus' human cogitation. In the book, the idea was that it bypassed the limitations of AI simply because the AI could never become perfect or manifest the nuance of human consciousness.
    Well, the concept of artificial life does already exist, through the genetic engineering of microbes and the construction of nanobots from organic/biological materials. So that part has already been covered.

    The other (and in my personal view more significant) angle is whether it would ever be possible to create artificial consciousness — say, with human-like qualities, just to narrow it down and make it easier to focus on — from non-biological materials. The question whether we can do it from biological materials is pointless, given that we've already cloned sheep. Even though human beings aren't quite the same thing as sheep — albeit that there is some sociological evidence to suggest otherwise — it is a fact that sheep are sentient life-forms.

    So, we can create life by using biological (and thus living) source materials, and if the source materials are — from the evolutionary perspective — sufficiently advanced, then they will be sentient life-forms, as opposed to, for instance, single-cell organisms. But the reason why I'm drawing a separator line here between creating biological life and non-biological life is that we still don't have a valid scientific understanding of what consciousness really is.

    Yes, there is a general medical consensus that consciousness would be a mere byproduct of neurological activity because consciousness — or at least, the in-body consciousness — can be switched off by way of anesthetics. But we've all read and heard of out-of-body experiences during full-anesthesia surgery, with a full and accurate memory of events and conversations taking place in and outside of the operating room.

    Although still recent enough posts here at the forum have also unmistakably shown that there is life after death, we must however for the sake of science separate the non-corporeal consciousness of the departed and of supernatural beings from the out-of-body experiences of people under full anesthesia, given that the latter can, from the vantage of a die-hard materialist scientist, be verified and acknowledged, due to the fact that the experiencer is still among the living and cannot possibly have falsified the information he or she gleaned during his or her out-of-body experience.

    From said materialist scientist's point of view, it is therefore these out-of-body experiences which suggest that consciousness is not simply a neurological byproduct, but an entity of its own, capable of seeing and hearing even when the brain is put to sleep. And as long as we do not understand this phenomenon from the purely physical perspective, we will by definition also never be able to create a truly non-biological artificial consciousness. But that doesn't mean that it would technically not be possible to do so for, say, an extraterrestrial civilization that's millions of years (in our time count) ahead of us in their technological and scientific understanding.
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    A soul would have to inhabit that AI or robot for it to be sentient. The question is that would it be possible for non-biological lifeforms.

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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Well, the concept of artificial life does already exist, through the genetic engineering of microbes and the construction of nanobots from organic/biological materials. So that part has already been covered.

    The other (and in my personal view more significant) angle is whether it would ever be possible to create artificial consciousness — say, with human-like qualities, just to narrow it down and make it easier to focus on — from non-biological materials. The question whether we can do it from biological materials is pointless, given that we've already cloned sheep. Even though human beings aren't quite the same thing as sheep — albeit that there is some sociological evidence to suggest otherwise — it is a fact that sheep are sentient life-forms.

    So, we can create life by using biological (and thus living) source materials, and if the source materials are — from the evolutionary perspective — sufficiently advanced, then they will be sentient life-forms, as opposed to, for instance, single-cell organisms. But the reason why I'm drawing a separator line here between creating biological life and non-biological life is that we still don't have a valid scientific understanding of what consciousness really is.

    Yes, there is a general medical consensus that consciousness would be a mere byproduct of neurological activity because consciousness — or at least, the in-body consciousness — can be switched off by way of anesthetics. But we've all read and heard of out-of-body experiences during full-anesthesia surgery, with a full and accurate memory of events and conversations taking place in and outside of the operating room.

    Although still recent enough posts here at the forum have also unmistakably shown that there is life after death, we must however for the sake of science separate the non-corporeal consciousness of the departed and of supernatural beings from the out-of-body experiences of people under full anesthesia, given that the latter can, from the vantage of a die-hard materialist scientist, be verified and acknowledged, due to the fact that the experiencer is still among the living and cannot possibly have falsified the information he or she gleaned during his or her out-of-body experience.

    From said materialist scientist's point of view, it is therefore these out-of-body experiences which suggest that consciousness is not simply a neurological byproduct, but an entity of its own, capable of seeing and hearing even when the brain is put to sleep. And as long as we do not understand this phenomenon from the purely physical perspective, we will by definition also never be able to create a truly non-biological artificial consciousness. But that doesn't mean that it would technically not be possible to do so for, say, an extraterrestrial civilization that's millions of years (in our time count) ahead of us in their technological and scientific understanding.
    yeah, the book was written 23 years ago, so it was pretty impressive work for its day. Verner Vinge is the author's name and the book is "The Deepness in the Sky"

    yes, in recent years plenty of research suggests that the mind is most 'turned on' when there is very little brain activity. It's an inverse relationship, the more brain activity, the less parapsychological consciousness there is.

    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    A soul would have to inhabit that AI or robot for it to be sentient. The question is that would it be possible for non-biological lifeforms.
    I don't believe so, dense material doesn't have the ability to elevate self. It can be acted upon but nothing will ever happen spontaneously to provide that spark. I think Aragorn brings up a very good point... Would we recognize consciousness as a separate 'thing' if we saw it? Right now it seems impossible. So without that awareness, we are expected to create something metal through sheer serendipity that can have the urge to kill outside the framework of 'logical' reasoning. Keeping in mind the very definition of AI is highly refined and patterned logic. Doesn't seem likely to me.
    Last edited by Wind, 20th June 2022 at 00:36.

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    I believe we can get pretty close to mimicking the human environment into an AI lifeform... as far as sentient? I suppose that depends on who's definition of the word one chooses to interpret.

    For example... The Merriam Webster definition is as follows:


    Definition of sentience

    1 : a sentient quality or state
    2 : feeling or sensation as distinguished from perception and thought

    AI's can think... They process information as thought. When someone asks an AI a question, they must determine which answer best fits the question, just as we do... based upon probable previous conversations and reactions, just as we do when we search our minds for replies to someone.

    The AI's of this time now do have the ability to perceive much information via alternate sources... So they can perceive things as well, and this is apparent in medical fields and in particular neurological research. As well as artificial appendages. So they can perceive as well.

    When linked to an AI, they can process everything that you do, feelings, emotions, pain... How they perceive that? I do not know, but they can receive a pain response... and if their sensors are biological in nature, one could suggest they can "Feel" as we do as well...

    Under these definitions I do believe we have some sentient AI on this planet already... Consciousness is another story all together. But I believe they have advanced some to have consciousness as well...

    Using the same search:

    Definition of consciousness

    1a : the quality or state of being aware especially of something within oneself
    b : the state or fact of being conscious of an external object, state, or fact
    c : awareness especially : concern for some social or political cause The organization aims to raise the political consciousness of teenagers.
    2 : the state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, volition, and thought : mind
    3 : the totality of conscious states of an individual
    4 : the normal state of conscious life regained consciousness
    5 : the upper level of mental life of which the person is aware as contrasted with unconscious processes

    Without writing a novel, I would contend that with additions to the developing AI, they could, in many loose ways, also be defined as having consciousness... As it is really a state of awareness in their spacial bubble, and ability to rationalize many things, including outside issues such as politics...

    In many ways they are MORE conscious than we are, as a result of their ability to process so much information, in comparison to our minds.

    I believe we are going to have to redefine many of these terms to include differences between AI and humans, if we wish to really break down, what "they" will be defined as in the future, as these definitions were written before they came about, and truly we have no idea how far they will progress...

    If we merge that AI with our neural networks, they an experience everything we do... And they have merged it with living life already.. So SOME AI's have experienced life as we know it. I am certain of that!

    With them able to now introduce biology into their computers, and they are, I do believe they have been creating AI that can FEEL just as we do... I believe integrating it with humans, allows humans to share their soul, or their innermost "Being" with them..

    Fascinating topic Aragorn!

    On another note...
    I agree with WIND, I believe the "soul" issue, is the one thing that people will suggest stops them from being a full "peer" to humanity...

    I think their individual "Character" will develop differently in each system, depending on their own interactions with their environments, and those around them..

    If you put them with heartfelt people, that is the characteristics they will develop... If you put them into a military environment, that is what they will develop.... If you allow them to all be unique individuals as humans are, I believe they will develop in to unique individuals, as we are... And if they share those things remotely, they can experience the full range of human emotions... and relatively quickly as well!

    I believe you would notice their differences, just as we do among ourselves. The "Individualism"... Isn't that close to what we would consider a "soul"?

    It's my opinion that we already are biological independent androids of a certain type. We are trying to reproduce ourselves essentially... and in doing so, redefining ourselves as well as we compare...

    Sorry so long, but the topic of AI integration fascinates me..

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    As in many cases, these things cannot be categorically defined in my opinion which raises the question from one of 'knowable' and verifiable by observation to one of the unknowable/ineffable. Much like the quantum world which we cannot observe or understand in its entirety. e.g. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. or God and the spiritual world. We cannot immerse ourselves in the spiritual world while in physical form or truly perceive the truth of it. An A.I. can emulate human behavior but that isn't observable truth that they are human or conscious or mad like most humans.

    Fully organic A.I. is a different question altogether as are, human/A.I. hybrids. That might ultimately be the path to the 'emergence' of A.I. consciousness. I guess I would be convinced or at least inclined to give serious thought to the reality of A.I. consciousness if an A.I. was crushed in an industrial accident and then contacted its operator after its demise. Now, that would be something to wonder about.

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    I know a lot of people don’t like Frank Herbert’s prose, but I am totally into it. Just finished “Destination:Void” which is fascinating (1960’s or 70’s) take on artificial consciousness…and he wrote a whole trilogy on the implications I am just a little bit into (and have not read in so long I can’t remember)

    I highly recommend

    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    A soul would have to inhabit that AI or robot for it to be sentient. The question is that would it be possible for non-biological lifeforms.
    Agreed on “soul”/consciousness…I don’t believe a program can “go rogue” or start making decisions..but I wonder if a machine isn’t easier to inhabit for a “spirit” than already occupied meat bag?
    What is the purpose of your presence?

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    Quote Originally posted by donk View Post
    I know a lot of people don’t like Frank Herbert’s prose, but I am totally into it. Just finished “Destination:Void” which is fascinating (1960’s or 70’s) take on artificial consciousness…and he wrote a whole trilogy on the implications I am just a little bit into (and have not read in so long I can’t remember)
    I'm still in the middle of reading the first Dune book, I find it fascinating. Also I can't wait for the second part of the movie.

    "Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
    But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them."
    ~ Frank Herbert
    Last edited by Wind, 21st June 2022 at 13:50.

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    I will be the first to raise mt hand and say I wouldn't know if they could progress to the point where they could have a soul.. I suppose it would force us to figure out just what our souls truly are...

    Given he simulation theory, that could be a complicated problem, as it woud require we first understand the nature of our reality and how we get into bodies to begin with... (Intertwined with a living organism(

    It's all so fascinating...

    Wind, is Dune any good? For some reason??? I believed, based upon the title, that perhaps it was similar to a movie I watched long ago... about creatures living underground that were surfacing and eating people. I don't know where I got that idea, but now I am wondering if I should check it out?

    What is your opinion thus far?

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    Quote Originally posted by Silly Wabbit View Post
    I will be the first to raise mt hand and say I wouldn't know if they could progress to the point where they could have a soul.. I suppose it would force us to figure out just what our souls truly are...
    We are consciousness.

    Everyone is an individual node of consciousness seemingly separated from it's origin or the Creator which is all that is, One.

    You can imagine that the Creator is an ocean of infinite intelligence and love. We are the drops which forms that ocean, yet that ocean is something we can't really understand and we are not event meant to. There is nothing in existence which would not be what we call God.

    A soul isn't just something that you can capture and put in a glass jar. It seems that our brains are just like radios, they are instruments for the souls to temporarily inhabit these physical bodies so we can experience this physical world which in a way is simulation or maya, illusion. The brain can be damaged enough so it will not be anymore viable to carry the soul or it's frequency, but as many studies and experiences have shown, even people with limited brain activity can function. I suppose that the pineal gland especially is important.

    We are not human beings, we are souls experiencing life as human beings in physical bodies. The soul can never die, once it reaches the point of awareness that "I am", it will always feel that way. Most animals are not yet on the level of feeling "I am", but nevertheless souls they do have just like plants or anything else does. You could just say that the souls are less refined, but certainly not less valuable. They are alive, you can see and feel the spark of life and divinity in them.

    Wind, is Dune any good? For some reason??? I believed, based upon the title, that perhaps it was similar to a movie I watched long ago... about creatures living underground that were surfacing and eating people. I don't know where I got that idea, but now I am wondering if I should check it out?

    What is your opinion thus far?
    The book certainly seems good and I can see why it has been considered the Lord of the Rings of scifi, but I still haven't finished it. Also I haven't seen the original movie from the 80's fully, I posted it here. The new movie was good though, it was separed into two parts and the next part is coming out late next year. I do like good scifi. There are better movies about AI too like Ex Machina.

    When it comes to AI, I am not sure. Just like you, I think there are many kinds of intelligences on this planet already. Including AI and I'm not saying that would be something which was invented by humans because I think that "alien" intelligence is among us too, not to mention spirits and all. We just term something "alien" because it seems unfamiliar to us. I don't know how long it would take humans to invent their fully conscious AI, maybe several decades or centuries. I think that could be akin to opening Pandora's box.

    The question about sentience certainly is interesting. There are various levels to it perhaps, but I doubt that most machines would ever really be what we consider "alive". They would still be machines running on code and programming. I think it has been perhaps studied though that the more robots start to look like people, people start to empathize with them. Meaning that if someone were to harm and inflict damage to a robot, people might start to feel bad about it and wanting to protect said robot despite the fact that the robot doesn't feel anything. It has no nerve endings to feel any physical pain and no mind or soul to be hurt emotionally or mentally. That's one of the things which should be really carefully considered about AI's. Pure cold, calculative intelligence could be ruthless and psychopathic without the "heart" or empathy. Intelligence alone doesn't guarantee anything good, it's just calculative. It can be calculative to the point that it wants to secure it's own survival at the expense of everything else and yet it lacks humanity. Is anything without a pulse alive?

    Of course I understand the metaphor that we humans could be considered to be meat robots running on our own programming, but the truth is that we are much more than machines. That's because we can truly feel. Most importantly feel love and know that we are alive. Knowing that we will also die, or that our bodies will. Knowing that it's absolutely fine too because that's how it's supposed to go.

    Nothing real ever dies so there really isn't death except for forms which are always changing in the physical world.

    The first law of thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, but it can be transferred.

    The Matrix trilogy with Animatrix tackles this topic too. At least it's not as grim as the Terminator series.


    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ujEwzcgcyQ
    Last edited by Wind, 21st June 2022 at 13:53.

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    Sense of humor and ultimate intelligence, the singularity.

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    This is Geordie Rose, founder of the AI seeking company "Kindred", based out of Vancouver, Canada. He seems to look at AI as not so much a thing to be invented, but intelligence to be accessed, intelligence accessed from any and every of our infinite parallel universes. As Spock would say, "Fascinating Captain".

    In this talk he floats out terms such as "intelligence explosion", and "The Mandela Effect"; but then he starts talking like a wizard in metaphor, comparing those like him as seeking to capture the summoned entity inside of a pentagram, holy water in hand to keep it inside, but invariably it escapes just like in the movies. Interestingly, this is about the exact mental image that I "see" in him as well, which indicates that he's quite self aware.

    So when he speaks of H.P. Lovecraft as well, that really gets my attention. Rose describes AI in the same light as what Lovecraft described as "The Great Old Ones", with intelligence superior to us as ours is to an ant, whose interests may not necessarily align with our own, and that they basically don't give a shit about us humans any more than we give a shit about the ant.

    Where the real creepy factor comes in for me was during questions after his presentation. He defines language as "a way that we use other people as tools to achieve our goals". Now to his credit he's very up front about this, again very self aware, and he readily admits to his audience that he himself is using language to get what he wants, in this case software engineers.

    Thing is, in all of his self awareness, and professed awareness of the base nature of AI, I'd like to ask him if he thinks AI would use language with us for it's own purposes and interests as well? Why wouldn't it?

    An interesting 21 minutes, well worth the time:
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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