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Thread: The Left In America

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    Super Moderator Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    The Left In America

    Daily Kos has been held up here as the poster child for how wonderfully enlightened the American left is, and the alternative community is duly invited to go find all the wonderful ideas and issues the outlet stands and fights for.

    I linked to the Herman Cain awards reddit because a person can see there, first hand, the memes which people post, the ideas which they have about both the coronavirus and the available vaccines, whether they even make a distinction, their personal stated views about hospitals and doctors, and their calls for help, be it prayer warriors, go-fund-me, or other.

    There was no point linking to the opinion part, because the substance lies in the actual deaths and the personal reasons each individual gave for why they didn't get vaccinated, why they ended up dying (or not), and how many children or other family members they left behind.

    The opinion is for color. After you've read hundreds of accounts of folks dying unnecessarily you tend to develop feelings and opinions.

    The person whose opinion I quoted is named Markos Moulitsas. He is the founder of the progressive blog Daily Kos. For those folks who are curious about what actual liberals, actual progressives, actual lefties believe and fight for you can go to this site and see for yourself.

    The alternative community could stand to read up on what progressives actually believe and fight for. They might discover more similarities than differences. If they actually took the time to look and think.
    https://www.dailykos.com/tags/Coronavirus
    Apparently the "Herman Cain Award" is big on the left, so first off this is what it is:
    The Herman Cain Award is an ironic award given to people who made public statements of COVID-19 vaccine misinformation and hesitancy, and who have later died from COVID-19 or COVID-19 complications.
    Well okay, so apparently trendy lefties like to go on Reddit, and amuse themselves by handing out "Herman Cain Awards" to "those stupid right wing anti vaxxers who got exactly what was coming to them".

    That then leads into our invitation to check out Daily Kos, so I started out by checking out their "Coronavirus" link to where they're at on the subject, here's the link:
    https://www.dailykos.com/tags/Coronavirus

    I would have expected the supposedly big hearted, issues driven lefties there to be beyond the throwing of spit balls at "stupid righties", and try and find some common ground to muddle through problems together, or at least stand and fight for your own ideas on problem solving. But nope, a lot of what you'll find there is just basically more kids throwing spit balls, passing out "Herman Cain Awards".

    Here's three typical examples:
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/202...ut-supplements

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/202...r-s-final-rant

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/202...-be-a-finalist

    I could certainly follow along with them if they really were issue oriented, and demonstrating that they are out there fighting for Average Joes like me, but that's not what they're really about. Their coronavirus slogan may as well be "when an anti vaxxer gets sick, we'll point it out and we'll all have a good scoff at them".

    Sooooo, what about "Herman Cain Awards" am I supposed to be enthralled with? All I see there is more meanness and division, and I'm not down with that. Not everything boils down to evil right wing and racism, the left needs to cut it with that shit and start championing for some real issues to get my attention. But that will take some self reflection, which will never happen with the finger of guilt and shame always pointed the other way.

    That goddess for comedy. I know Jimmy Dorr isn't very welcome here because his mission as a traditional lefty is to take the left to task and make it better, but this little two minute skit is spot on with the obsessive labeling of everything we don't like these days:

    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U6Z7nCborE


    As an aside: I had to walk on eggshells in pointing the mirror at the authoritarian Alt Right prevailing mentality over at The Project, it's nice to just be free over here and let 'er fly with that mirror towards the authoritarian left mentality. And yes, the left can be authoritarian as well. Shutting people down is authoritarian, what Trudeau is doing right now up in Canada in labeling protesters Nazi terrorists and freezing their bank accounts is authoritarian, and what do you think those never ending hard core lockdowns were all about.

    When people are not free to move about and do their business, that's not freedom. It may not go as far as wet dreams about frog marching people off to Gitmo or dividing us up according to who are "Purebloods" or not, but they're both in the same authoritarian ballpark. It always goes back to "when my side does it it's okay, and when your side does it it's the worst thing in the world".
    Last edited by Fred Steeves, 21st February 2022 at 00:17.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    Senior Member Catsquotl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    It always goes back to "when my side does it it's okay, and when your side does it it's the worst thing in the world".
    Not always.
    Only when people are ushered to say something about it.
    These days I'm thinking more and more that people are just saying anything for the sake of not breaking down completely. Build up some form of persona, because the emptiness is heart-breakingly indescribable otherwise.
    Have a great day today

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    Super Moderator Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Eelco, long time no see man!

    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    It always goes back to "when my side does it it's okay, and when your side does it it's the worst thing in the world".
    Quote Originally posted by Catsquotl View Post
    Not always.
    Only when people are ushered to say something about it.
    These days I'm thinking more and more that people are just saying anything for the sake of not breaking down completely. Build up some form of persona, because the emptiness is heart-breakingly indescribable otherwise.
    Can you elaborate on that a bit?





    A lot of what I'm seeing, here in the States anyway, is many people supplanting their spirituality, for a political affiliation. On both sides of this frothing, turbulent divide, is an increasing, almost religious fervor in spreading the good word about "The Good Guys" that they are now signed up with. We could even call them the white hats for old times sake! condemnation of "the others", those who would pit themselves against the white hats.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    Since we're talking about the American Left here, big shout out to Nick Maduro!

    He's my favourite American Leftist, since the passing of Hugo Chavez...

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    Super Moderator Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    Since we're talking about the American Left here, big shout out to Nick Maduro!

    He's my favourite American Leftist, since the passing of Hugo Chavez...
    How are either one of them American?
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    How are either one of them American?
    America is a big place. Even bigger than you think


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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    How are either one of them American?
    In response to your initial post, Fred. I have always stayed away from things like that because it is strictly wrong, cruel even. And just begging for the karmic smackdown. It is why the notion of the Herman Cain thing even exists. Are you sure it wasn't the right that set this up in order to make the left look hypocritical and enable the so effective, "I told you so!"


    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELCp_cEas1U


    In any case, it is a pretty weak indictment. Mocking the dead pales to insignificance when compared against actually killing them.
    Last edited by Chuckie, 21st February 2022 at 13:19.

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    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    ν ½νΈ’
    Him and his NAFTA... Liberalism, leftism ... He is just wrong ... Nader? That's another joke. Nader had such a positive persona in the U.S. back in the day... The Consumer Advocate?! When he came to mainstream prominence, I for one, realized he was just another asshole. This guy may care and he has good points but he still rails on the wrong issues. NAFTA was simply not a leftist sell-out, it was a subtle compromise with the right's corporate power structure to help the little guy. Plainly and simply, it was bastardized beyond recognition by the corporatists just as Obama care was.

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    Super Moderator Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    Chris Hedges has it spot on there as usual. One of the main reasons a guy like Captain Chaos was able to win in the first place, was disaffected working class democrats finally losing patience with "the working man's party" after having their hopes dashed yet again after 8 years of Obama had gotten them nothing, hell they had even lost more ground while he shmoozed with Wall Street.

    So a lot of them essentially said fuck this shit, and cast their lots with this new plain spoken character singing the populist song. Of course he was a fake populist, that schtick was already out the window by the run up to the 2020 elections, but it just showed how fed up working class democrats have gotten with the establishment left that really couldn't care less about them.

    And they're still fed up, nothing has changed as the middle class continues to struggle and shrink, so if the establishment big wigs are under some delusion that these same people voted for Biden/Harris for any other reason but the hatred for Trump the acquired, they've got another thing coming.

    The atmosphere is still ripe for another Trump type person to come in and sweep people off their feet again, and maybe this time they'll be smarter and more competent. This is exactly what Hedges is talking about in if you just keep supporting the lesser of two evils candidates, and never dare stick your head under the hood to see what the festering problems are, you're setting yourself up for a Trump to happen all over again.

    The traditional left like Chris Hedges and others plainly see this, but he's beholden to principles and ideas not to a party, which frees him up to continuously look and monitor under the hood. I think it's highly ironic that the types who had their brains fried by Trump, who rail against him the most while steadfastly defending the democratic party from any and every critique or criticism, are the same ones who are helping to usher in the next version of their worst nightmare.

    And it's all because everything has to be republicans fault, with the democrats at fault for nothing. It's called blind loyalty and it's a self defeating cause.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    "And it's all because everything has to be republicans fault, with the democrats at fault for nothing. It's called blind loyalty and it's a self defeating cause."

    And yes, that's the reality. Examine history with eyes and mind wide open and one will see the ugly truth. Even Hedges betrays his 'white bias' when looking at the reality that is part and parcel of his experience. It illustrates to me the inherent 'weakness' of the intellects that complain the most and gain the biggest 'alternative' devotees. It is the stark truth. Sure there are many blind and purely hypocritical lefties to fill up the space the righties crave to see filled. But it doesn't make it the truth or even remotely real.

    It is inevitable that after decades if not centuries that the middle class was exploited by the right-supported corporatists that many lost faith that there was a way out in legitimate political processes. Unfortunately, they are correct in their vision, because the ruling corporatist elites will give nothing, they only take and they don't discriminate. Those that succumbed in the battle of right versus wrong defaulted to the Golden One from sheer exhaustion, the Stockholm Syndrome, and the seeds of their own racism and their belief that the United States is a white man's land. Haven't they proven that with the decimation of the Native American Tribes, slavery, and the treatment of migrant labor as virtual slaves that they are the dominant racial culture and no one shall call a spade anything but a spade?

    It is why we are losing our democracy; because those who own the blame of it all don't care about democracy, they care about personal wealth and having a coveted seat at the table. Hedges is lost in his own confusion about left and right. His subconscious impulse is to be white and right, it lies in an unexplored region of his mind solidly engulfed within the shadow, yet his conscious mind knows the truth and the dichotomy is unresolvable so he flails at the edges of truth with great intent and earnestness. Or so it would seem, he certainly isn't as transparent as such as Dore, Kulinski, Maher, and all the rest of the dregs of humanity.

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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    Chris Hedges has it spot on there as usual. One of the main reasons a guy like Captain Chaos was able to win in the first place, was disaffected working class democrats finally losing patience with "the working man's party" after having their hopes dashed yet again after 8 years of Obama had gotten them nothing, hell they had even lost more ground while he shmoozed with Wall Street.

    So a lot of them essentially said fuck this shit, and cast their lots with this new plain spoken character singing the populist song. Of course he was a fake populist, that schtick was already out the window by the run up to the 2020 elections, but it just showed how fed up working class democrats have gotten with the establishment left that really couldn't care less about them.
    And that is exactly how the far-right here in the Flanders came to power in the 1990s. The Socialist Party β€” now called "Ahead"; yes, seriously β€” had traditionally always been the working man's party, but they were making a mess out of things and treating immigrants like kings while the native population was left in the cold. Not that the socialists really loved those immigrants, but they were using them so as to make the statement that they're "progressives" and anti-racist, and the other traditional parties were donating millions to dictators in developing nations, specifically so as to set Belgium on the map as the world's most charitable country.

    The Flemish far-right β€” initially simply a Flemish-nationalist/separatist movement of which many old members had collaborated with the Nazis during World War II, or were the biological and ideological descendants of those collaborators β€” saw this as an opportunity and started playing into the discontentment of the little guy in the street. Their slogan was "(Our) Own People First!", and the party's leadership cleverly started playing the populist card, with ample provocation. The socialists and even the other traditional parties started losing members by the droves, and all of those people would upon the next elections vote for the far-right party.

    Given that the far-right party is overtly racist β€” and has been convicted for racism, which prompted them to reboot the party with slightly revised statutes β€” the traditional parties have all agreed on a sanitary cordon, i.e. they will never enter into a coalition with the far-right party. This meant that even though the far-right party was now the biggest in the Flanders, they were doomed to eternally remain an opposition party. However, meanwhile another conservative Flemish-nationalist party has arisen, and this party is not racist β€” or at least, not openly, but they're definitely quite far to the right β€” and so many members of the original far-right party have begun jumping ship, so that they can now be part of a party that's allowed to partake in government. And it does; it is now the biggest party in the Flanders β€” bigger than the far-right party.

    In the Walloon region, things are very different. They do also have a (small) far-right party over there, but the Walloon region has traditionally always been rather left-wing. Even the Walloon Christian-democrats are somewhat left-wing, whereas their Flemish counterparts are rather conservative. But at present time, the neo-liberals are very strong there, just as they have also traditionally been in the Flanders.

    On account of the USA, I've said this before, but the Democrats should have learned their lesson from four years of Donald Trump. But they didn't. Instead they simply saw him as a nuisance and waited for him to go away. And then it was back to business as usual.

    No anti-imperialist Tulsi Gabbard, no progressive AOC, no "woo-woo hippie" Marianne Williamson, and no "filthy commie" Bernie Sanders. No, it had to be a good old traditional status-quo Democrat: Joe Biden. And Biden did not win those elections based upon his merits, but because Trump had fucked up so badly in those four years that everyone else would have met the Democratic voter's approval, even if it had been Mickey Mouse. That is, for the voter, but not for the DNC. Because the DNC, in its hubris, hasn't learned a damn thing, and they're simply going on with "same old, same old": good old American imperialism and corporatism, catering to the military-industrial complex and the ever trigger-happy war hawks at the Pentagon, and the "America's the greatest nation on Earth, God bless America" bullshit.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    "And that is exactly how the far-right here in the Flanders came to power in the 1990s. The Socialist Party β€” now called "Ahead"; yes, seriously β€” had traditionally always been the working man's party, but they were making a mess out of things and treating immigrants like kings while the native population was left in the cold. Not that the socialists really loved those immigrants, but they were using them so as to make the statement that they're "progressives" and anti-racist, and the other traditional parties were donating millions to dictators in developing nations, specifically so as to set Belgium on the map as the world's most charitable country."

    Treating immigrants like Kings would be a rare anachronism if they weren't truly Kings?

    I disagree with the same old same old beyond it is the same old same oldies making the decisions. The American 'family' is growing larger and I pray to God that we will learn to at least not categorize good and bad by color. But I fear the worst, it will take a rare breed of human to supersede the instinct of separation between us and them.
    Last edited by Chuckie, 21st February 2022 at 19:57.

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    Quote Originally posted by Chuckie View Post
    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn
    And that is exactly how the far-right here in the Flanders came to power in the 1990s. The Socialist Party β€” now called "Ahead"; yes, seriously β€” had traditionally always been the working man's party, but they were making a mess out of things and treating immigrants like kings while the native population was left in the cold. Not that the socialists really loved those immigrants, but they were using them so as to make the statement that they're "progressives" and anti-racist, and the other traditional parties were donating millions to dictators in developing nations, specifically so as to set Belgium on the map as the world's most charitable country.
    Treating immigrants like Kings would be a rare anachronism if they weren't truly Kings?
    Immigrants were receiving all kinds of benefits that the "indigenous" were not eligible for, because the "indigenous" weren't interesting enough for making a political statement as a party, while the "immigrants" were.

    And when it comes to The Party Formerly Known As The Socialist Partyβ„’, the same still holds true today, except that the scope has grown a little wider now, and now also includes LGBTQ+ people. The party uses them all as poster children for their "progressiveness" while completely forgetting that they're in office to serve the population, and for that matter, all of the population.

    The (Flemish) neo-liberals are also not exactly alien to that game either. For the first time ever in the history of the Flemish green party, we've got a green federal vice-prime-minister, Petra De Sutter. And that is purely a PR stunt from the neo-liberals, Ahead and the other Flemish parties. Because β€” and this is no slant at Petra De Sutter, nor at their gender identity and/or their qualifications β€” I am fairly convinced that the green party would still not have been allowed to have one of their members as federal vice-prime-minister if Petra De Sutter had not been a transgender.

    That, my friend, is the game of politics.

    Quote Originally posted by Chuckie View Post
    I disagree with the same old same old beyond it is the same old same oldies making the decisions.
    That was my point. It's the same people making the decisions, and it is those same people who control the DNC. I don't think I need to remind you how the DNC has stabbed Bernie Sanders in the back, twice β€” first in favor of Hillary in 2016 and then in favor of Sleepy Joe in 2020.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    "Immigrants were receiving all kinds of benefits that the "indigenous" were not eligible for, because the "indigenous" weren't interesting enough for making a political statement as a party, while the "immigrants" were."

    I can't speak to the reality of your 'perspective' but I certainly understand how easy it is to 'feel' that way. I'm an American citizen and my exposure to 'benefits' as granted by the government has never materialized. What I have received in my history is a general disdain due only to others by virtue of being others. Whatever the government tried to hand me to even the playing field was in short due taken away once I hit the field. That's the plain truth and that's why these 'favoritisms' continue to be necessary and why the 'true' issues are never confronted.

    I admit that I created many of my own challenges because I was 'born' different but I can tell you that I was always considered intellectually gifted, even mathematically, as a youngster, yet, I was purposefully beset upon by farm folk teachers, fellow students, and even priests and nuns. Is that fair? I was taught very early that fair is something to forget about, because it just wasn't going to happen, not in good ol' America.

    Do you think that the favoring of cheap technology workers has never impacted my efforts to accomplish something for the next generation? Well, don't think that for a second. I acknowledged to myself, having descended from 'othered feriners' that EVERYONE deserves a fair and equal chance to be the best human they can be and I've lived my life with that value at the forefront. And, it is incumbent upon all of us to strive to 'feel' that divine reality. It is those that don't have the moral wherewithal to share that vision that creates the social imbalances that we all have to deal with. We talk about self-defeatism but what is truly self-defeating is to impose barriers upon the pursuit of life, liberty, and opportunity to excel.

    Incidentally, Who's Who won't leave me alone, they send me emails nearly every day asking me to accept the nomination and assuring me that it is at no cost to me. I laugh because I know damn well, I don't even belong on my own Who's Who list.

    The point is we should be able to have an intrinsic awareness that everyone has something valuable to add to society even if it isn't something that we personally value, even if, in fact, it is contrary to what we wish. As in the K-PAX movie when Prot is asked how his world determines right and wrong without laws, judges, and juries, he responds, "Every living being knows the difference between right and wrong."

    But, of course, perhaps on his homeworld they don't have corporations.

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