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Thread: The Left In America

  1. #16
    Senior Member Aianawa's Avatar
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    Really really enjoying your shares Fred, though unable to join in, share, question your opinions and truths the last moon, was great sensing another side of you, oh and am sure Billy boy still loves ya lol.

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    Senior Member Catsquotl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    Eelco, long time no see man!
    Can you elaborate on that a bit?
    Hey Fred,
    It's been a minute indeed.

    Well for one thing, If I don't come to places like these I personally feel that the need to express an opinion on worldly and otherworldly events is almost entirely gone.
    I saw many people during the Covid Farce only express their opinions "heels in the dirt" so to speak when confronted with the question how they felt about it. Many just got on with minding their business and silently decide for themselves whether to comply with vaccination or not.

    Only when cornered into express their opinion, because the world painted a very opinionated picture on both sides, did many express theirs as "fact of the matter" instead of a more nuanced exploration of ideas which would happen if you just talked it over with some mates over a meal. Now we could discuss what cornered mean, but for this conversation I would say a 24/7 onslaught of main stream media "facts" followed by the same amount of non-main stream media backlash feel cornering for many who don't usually go and search for depth.

    Does that elaborate enough?

    With Love,
    Have a great day today

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  5. #18
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    Chris Hedges has it spot on there as usual. One of the main reasons a guy like Captain Chaos was able to win in the first place, was disaffected working class democrats finally losing patience with "the working man's party" after having their hopes dashed yet again after 8 years of Obama had gotten them nothing, hell they had even lost more ground while he shmoozed with Wall Street.

    So a lot of them essentially said fuck this shit, and cast their lots with this new plain spoken character singing the populist song. Of course he was a fake populist, that schtick was already out the window by the run up to the 2020 elections, but it just showed how fed up working class democrats have gotten with the establishment left that really couldn't care less about them. .
    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    And that is exactly how the far-right here in the Flanders came to power in the 1990s. The Socialist Party — now called "Ahead"; yes, seriously — had traditionally always been the working man's party, but they were making a mess out of things and treating immigrants like kings while the native population was left in the cold. Not that the socialists really loved those immigrants, but they were using them so as to make the statement that they're "progressives" and anti-racist, and the other traditional parties were donating millions to dictators in developing nations, specifically so as to set Belgium on the map as the world's most charitable country.
    That's very interesting, so it's a human thing, not an American thing. I wonder what strategist could possibly think a good political move would be to stop being a party of the people, but continue on trying to put on this dog and pony show that it still is, as if people aren't going to catch on eventually. In our last election, the democrats essentially stopped even trying to make a show of it any more, and quite deliberately and overtly pivoted to going after upper middle class professionals in the big city areas.

    Sleepy Joe did give it just a bit of lip service, for a while, but by now it's quite clear they no longer as a whole give a shit about the working class, and that leaves the door wide open for the next big fake populist coming down the road from the hard right to be the working man's hero again. You almost couldn't script it out any better if this were really the intention.

    Quote Originally posted by Catsquotl View Post
    Well for one thing, If I don't come to places like these I personally feel that the need to express an opinion on worldly and otherworldly events is almost entirely gone.
    I saw many people during the Covid Farce only express their opinions "heels in the dirt" so to speak when confronted with the question how they felt about it. Many just got on with minding their business and silently decide for themselves whether to comply with vaccination or not.

    Only when cornered into express their opinion, because the world painted a very opinionated picture on both sides, did many express theirs as "fact of the matter" instead of a more nuanced exploration of ideas which would happen if you just talked it over with some mates over a meal. Now we could discuss what cornered mean, but for this conversation I would say a 24/7 onslaught of main stream media "facts" followed by the same amount of non-main stream media backlash feel cornering for many who don't usually go and search for depth.

    Does that elaborate enough?
    It does thank you.

    Seriously man, I see very little evidence of much nuance going on any more, anywhere. Some time ago I just stopped sharing my opinions of things out in the real world, because everywhere I look, people's minds are already pretty much made up about everything. If one makes up your mind about one thing, then they've essentially made it up about a whole host of other issues to boot, because they've signed up to an ideology and are not actually thinking each individual issue through one by one. "This is what my group thinks about these issues, and I do too".

    People are doing a lot of tying their identities to their beliefs, and discussing these matters easily leads to people having different beliefs, and when beliefs are tied to identities feelings start getting hurt and anger ensues so I just don't go there. But it's always there waiting, just below the surface, people's minds are made up about things and they're on the lookout for confirmation from others.

    At least places like this are built for discussing these matters.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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  7. #19
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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    That's very interesting, so it's a human thing, not an American thing. I wonder what strategist could possibly think a good political move would be to stop being a party of the people, but continue on trying to put on this dog and pony show that it still is, as if people aren't going to catch on eventually. In our last election, the democrats essentially stopped even trying to make a show of it any more, and quite deliberately and overtly pivoted to going after upper middle class professionals in the big city areas.

    Sleepy Joe did give it just a bit of lip service, for a while, but by now it's quite clear they no longer as a whole give a shit about the working class, and that leaves the door wide open for the next big fake populist coming down the road from the hard right to be the working man's hero again. You almost couldn't script it out any better if this were really the intention.
    Populism has always worked, even in ancient times. Bread and Circuses et al...




    Seriously man, I see very little evidence of much nuance going on any more, anywhere. Some time ago I just stopped sharing my opinions of things out in the real world, because everywhere I look, people's minds are already pretty much made up about everything. If one makes up your mind about one thing, then they've essentially made it up about a whole host of other issues to boot, because they've signed up to an ideology and are not actually thinking each individual issue through one by one. "This is what my group thinks about these issues, and I do too".

    People are doing a lot of tying their identities to their beliefs, and discussing these matters easily leads to people having different beliefs, and when beliefs are tied to identities feelings start getting hurt and anger ensues so I just don't go there. But it's always there waiting, just below the surface, people's minds are made up about things and they're on the lookout for confirmation from others.

    At least places like this are built for discussing these matters.
    As centrist, who isn't wedded to either side or any specific ideology, I make this point often.

    The lack of nuance and politicization of every issue is truly frustrating. Wish it were just a US issue, but unfortunately it has gone global.

    Vaccines, Pandemic measures, Russian Meddling, Ukraine, Global Hyperinflation, whatever it is, people can no longer look at the issues without putting on their partisan / tribal glasses. It is genuinely frustrating as it is impossible to have a discussion with people like that, they just keep repeating their own side's talking points as if they were scripture handed down by God himself...

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  9. #20
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  11. #21
    Senior Member Catsquotl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post


    It does thank you.

    Seriously man, I see very little evidence of much nuance going on any more, anywhere. Some time ago I just stopped sharing my opinions of things out in the real world, because everywhere I look, people's minds are already pretty much made up about everything. If one makes up your mind about one thing, then they've essentially made it up about a whole host of other issues to boot, because they've signed up to an ideology and are not actually thinking each individual issue through one by one. "This is what my group thinks about these issues, and I do too".

    People are doing a lot of tying their identities to their beliefs, and discussing these matters easily leads to people having different beliefs, and when beliefs are tied to identities feelings start getting hurt and anger ensues so I just don't go there. But it's always there waiting, just below the surface, people's minds are made up about things and they're on the lookout for confirmation from others.

    At least places like this are built for discussing these matters.
    You're right, but also not.
    The nuance isn't there now because there is little of it anywhere.
    I think we hoomans are as transient as always, subconsciously adhering to whatever energies suffuse the current paradigm.
    It used to be more thoughtful and nuanced, because the paradigm called for it. Now it's defending your opinion, because somehow everybody is caught by the idea that your opinion matters.

    You write "This is what my group thinks about these issues, and I do too", but that's not it I think. More like I don't know, so I'll defend their thoughts as my own. because I don't care, but I should so I'll defend this point of view because that seems to be what is expected. Or rather. I had a thought about it once and will probably look foolish if I have any second thoughts about it. So I'll just shout harder, because I don't want to feel foolish.

    I really think less and less gratification is had by people from the notion of belonging to a group. Most just haven't caught up to that yet and seek for what once was..
    Have a great day today

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    In America, the folks on the left don't want the Corporate rule. The folks on the left don't want the imperialism. The folks on the left don't want the wars. They've been saying this for decades. They haven't had a party of their own. The closest thing is the Democratic party. And it's a long haul piece of work to change a party that big from the inside. There's a reason there's a 'squad' of progressives in the Democratic caucus. Because that portion has been growing and growing. That's part of why AOC is so threatening despite being very young and new to Congress. She challenges Pelosi's power.

    When I was a child, there were many liberals who were Republican. It was with Reagan that a majority of conservatives came to the Republican party and with him that liberals began to leave.

    It's like turning a cargo ship, trying to redirect the Democratic party. But it's happening. Pelosi and those dominant won't last forever, and their days are numbered now. Which is part of why the Republicans are freaking out. They've already lost the hearts and minds of the American people, already played out the benefits of gerrymandering and now they're just patently desperate. They have to cling to culture wars. They know they are losing and that is why they colluded widely to try to fulfill an auto-coup. There are many traitors and they are being unearthed.

    The right-wing will become more and more desperate as society changes. And this is manifesting in the vigilante laws, the ratting laws, the sue their pants off laws, all signs of desperation.

    The left is all that's left in terms of fighting the right-wing disease here in America. I cannot speak for the rest of the world. The right-wing was emboldened by Tump and his rhetoric. One unintended consequence of that will be activating more people who will push back.

    The left in America doesn't have corporate power or much political power. It does have people power. It has sheer numbers. And they're getting activated by the threats and bullying and bullshit.

    The corporations are reading the room. They see how the markets are changing and will change with them. They don't need right-wing political dominance. They need customers. They will move more and more away from the Republican party and more towards the progressives because that's where things are going. And if enough Americans become, say, anti-war, they'll find a way to profit from that. They'll always find a way.

    Chambers of Commerce across the country are dissociating themselves from the GOP because it's lost the plot. They can see which way the wind is blowing.

    The old dynamic is dying. But unnatural growth was never sustainable. Corporations will change as needed according to the forces of society and also nature. They may not be using a bullhorn on the subject but they are watching the climate and taking what measures they can to stay in business as change occurs.

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  15. #23
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    In America, the folks on the left don't want the Corporate rule. The folks on the left don't want the imperialism. The folks on the left don't want the wars. They've been saying this for decades. They haven't had a party of their own. The closest thing is the Democratic party. And it's a long haul piece of work to change a party that big from the inside. There's a reason there's a 'squad' of progressives in the Democratic caucus. Because that portion has been growing and growing. That's part of why AOC is so threatening despite being very young and new to Congress. She challenges Pelosi's power.

    When I was a child, there were many liberals who were Republican. It was with Reagan that a majority of conservatives came to the Republican party and with him that liberals began to leave.

    It's like turning a cargo ship, trying to redirect the Democratic party. But it's happening. Pelosi and those dominant won't last forever, and their days are numbered now. Which is part of why the Republicans are freaking out. They've already lost the hearts and minds of the American people, already played out the benefits of gerrymandering and now they're just patently desperate. They have to cling to culture wars. They know they are losing and that is why they colluded widely to try to fulfill an auto-coup. There are many traitors and they are being unearthed.

    The right-wing will become more and more desperate as society changes. And this is manifesting in the vigilante laws, the ratting laws, the sue their pants off laws, all signs of desperation.

    The left is all that's left in terms of fighting the right-wing disease here in America. I cannot speak for the rest of the world. The right-wing was emboldened by Tump and his rhetoric. One unintended consequence of that will be activating more people who will push back.

    The left in America doesn't have corporate power or much political power. It does have people power. It has sheer numbers. And they're getting activated by the threats and bullying and bullshit.

    The corporations are reading the room. They see how the markets are changing and will change with them. They don't need right-wing political dominance. They need customers. They will move more and more away from the Republican party and more towards the progressives because that's where things are going. And if enough Americans become, say, anti-war, they'll find a way to profit from that. They'll always find a way.

    Chambers of Commerce across the country are dissociating themselves from the GOP because it's lost the plot. They can see which way the wind is blowing.

    The old dynamic is dying. But unnatural growth was never sustainable. Corporations will change as needed according to the forces of society and also nature. They may not be using a bullhorn on the subject but they are watching the climate and taking what measures they can to stay in business as change occurs.
    I agree DT, but don't forget the significant contribution made by PA.
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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    Fred said,
    A lot of what I'm seeing, here in the States anyway, is many people supplanting their spirituality, for a political affiliation.
    That's my brother since Reagan. Once his team began to claim the moral majority, the family values, the patriotism, the decency, it was a perfect badge to put on his lapel. Of course he's all those things, he's a Republican. My brother was the only one in the family who did that. My parents did not. I never identified as a D or R. If people ever asked I'd just say I'm an American. I don't like being pigeon-holed and I don't encourage it.


    Catquotl said,
    More like I don't know, so I'll defend their thoughts as my own. because I don't care, but I should so I'll defend this point of view because that seems to be what is expected.
    I cannot even relate to thinking that way. I may be wrong about things, but I certainly care. I wouldn't waste my time parroting someone else's words when I'm not even inside their head. I don't read minds. I can only give my take on things.

    When I was in college I realized the first day of Rush for sororities that I was gong to fail before even starting. I couldn't give them the image they wanted. I couldn't even tell what that was.

    But my friend got offers from every single fraternity he rushed. They were all quite different. He literally described going in and talking like what he thought they expected. And it worked every time.

    I couldn't if I tried. And so I didn't. No sororities for me. (or fraternities )

    The relevance is, of course, the idea of identity being the team. For some people it is. But for many it isn't.

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  19. #25
    Senior Member Catsquotl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    . For some people it is. But for many it isn't.
    In my experience it's the other way around.
    Have a great day today

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    I guess for me it's matter of who I'm around. I don't have to go to a work place and almost everyone I choose to spend time with is someone I know. So that would mean that I've essentially selected out those who have that mentality.

    But it does explain the blank faces and blatant denial of facts on the ground which I encounter out and about. If a person is stuck in a group mindset, they cannot listen with open ears. The words are already colored before they're even processed.

    After my experience with my family and their friends, watching them sit around in a circle and group think, I was quite concerned. None of them should be doing this and yet they were. They're well-off, smart, family folks. And yet they were acting brain-dead.

    It was utter outrage over a university making the decision to cover tuition and housing for a student for their last semester. The parents had wanted to take their daughter out of college because she had the audacity to get a second major behind their backs. They got their money back for both housing and tuition.

    The university saw a valuable student and decided to cover her last semester so she could graduate with a degree she'd clearly earned.

    My brother and his friends were all outraged that the university took away the parents' rights. And no one could explain the rights which were taken away. But they kept on insisting this to the point that my brother walked out of the room after insulting me and one of the men got the classic blank face which happens when a good idea comes out and it wasn't their own.

    The best I was able to achieve was a, "I see what you're saying, I just don't believe it." After I had just said, essentially, that the sky is blue.

    When people like this are group-thinkng, we're in for a whole lot of hurting. People are embracing ignorance. And when claims of rights being lost keep getting thrown around willy nilly, that's the road to losing rights.

    And they should know this damn well. But they can't because group think.

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    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    In America, the folks on the left don't want the Corporate rule. The folks on the left don't want the imperialism. The folks on the left don't want the wars. They've been saying this for decades. They haven't had a party of their own. The closest thing is the Democratic party. And it's a long haul piece of work to change a party that big from the inside. There's a reason there's a 'squad' of progressives in the Democratic caucus. Because that portion has been growing and growing. That's part of why AOC is so threatening despite being very young and new to Congress. She challenges Pelosi's power.
    It's like turning a cargo ship, trying to redirect the Democratic party.
    So quite naturally I tend to agree with much of this DT, except that by saying the democratic party needs changing, this necessarily implies that there are problems with the democratic party. I've never once heard you utter the slightest criticism of the democrats (not even when they twice cheated Bernie Sanders out of the party's nomination), even though they often join with their republican counterparts in being in favor of the three issues you listed: Corporate rule, imperialism, and wars.

    I see you go after every lefty who criticizes them from the left, and when ever I point out that there are problems on both sides of the great political divide, I get to hear all about the dangers of "bothsiderism" because it's only about those damn pesky republicans.

    If the dems do indeed have problems, that also necessarily implies that not every problem under the sun is the fault of republicans only, so if they do indeed have some problems, they're gonna need a lot more than the squad.

    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    The left is all that's left in terms of fighting the right-wing disease here in America.
    I've noticed that, about the dems anyway, so much so that many of them don't seem to even be issues driven any more, it's been a lot of "I'm gonna stop Trump", and that's about it. That's basically how Biden won: "I'm not Trump".
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    Biden won't win again being 'not Trump' and he knows it. The sauce will be done after Covid wanes, this Ukraine situation plays out, and the economy improves. And Biden will still be pilloried. And the media might mention that some good things happened.

    Just as a reminder, I've said straight out, more than once, that there's no point to me jumping on the bandwagon of criticism of Biden. Why preach to the choir? This alternative community has nothing good to say about him or the Dems and they regularly play into the blame the Dems game. They have pavlov dog reactions to the names Soros and Clinton. There's no reason for me to add to it. Why would I?

    It was still possible to change the Republican party from within when they still wanted to actually do politics. They don't anymore. They want to turn over the game table. They want to take their ball and go home. And they're already setting themselves up to throw away registrations and votes. Because they don't give a crap about our Constitutional Republic any more.

    I did, recently, point out that Biden was in bed with the righties as regards Shirley Sherrod. I never liked Biden. And when he was running I said here that I wished he wasn't and that I thought it was a bad idea.

    And the media does not cut him a break. It doesn't matter how good his jobs numbers are or anything else. They just go negative.

    And you want me to jump in and add more to the pot of shit? There's no point.

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    Senior Member Catsquotl's Avatar
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    Just wondering,

    Who here does still believe that capitalist based democracy is worth defending. And why?

    I don't and have refused to play that game for a while now.
    To me it's a fancy puppeteers show.
    Have a great day today

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    Quote Originally posted by Catsquotl View Post
    Just wondering,

    Who here does still believe that capitalist based democracy is worth defending. And why?

    I don't and have refused to play that game for a while now.
    To me it's a fancy puppeteers show.
    I'm with you, man.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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