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Thread: Consensus Reality

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    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    Consensus Reality

    I submit that this is the core issue that plagues a central tenet of today's thought. It is apparent in one of the foremost polarizing topics within the current zeitgeist; Cancel Culture. We cannot as a society have a meaningful debate or even casual conversation until we find a basis for such discussion because without it we are beating a communicative dead horse. We are living in the land of bypassed words and meanings. It is the very basis of which such intellectual giants as Jordan Peterson live and swim. And as hard as he does or doesn't try to convey his words in a form palatable to all he fails because his reality is different to most of those to whom he preaches. Despite the seeming preciseness of his oration, it is empty of any value that would propel humanity forward. To demonstrate the reality split, I will give an example of mine. The underlying tone of his words says to me, that he finds 'others' as lacking any qualities that lend value to the discussion of 'what is good and what is bad' in the world, and further his reality speaks to mine in a completely condescending fashion by saying he believes that he is the supreme intellect and therefore the arbiter of what the 'others' should do. Essentially, being like him despite the 'other's' inherent incapability to achieve such a lofty height... reminds me of my ex-wife and my late father. Unfortunately for Peterson, those that really understand him and his advocacy and what he is fomenting as a social divider (the brick wall of his head) have decided to cancel him. He is no longer a tenured Professor at Toronto. His colleagues stated the obvious that he had been an embarrassment to the university long enough and should have resigned long ago.

    There is a lot of meat in this topic if anyone dare take a bite...
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    Consensus Reality from Psychology/Wiki

    Consensus reality is one approach to answering the question 'What is real?', a profound philosophical question, with answers dating back to prehistory. It gives a practical answer - reality is either what exists, or what we can agree by consensus seems to exist. The term is disparaged by some because by implication it may mean little more than "what a group or culture chooses to believe," and may bear little or no relationship to any "true reality", and, indeed, the term challenges the notion of "true reality".

    The difficulty with the question stems from the concern that human beings do not in fact fully understand or agree upon the nature of knowledge or knowing, and therefore (it is often argued) it is not possible to be certain beyond doubt what is real. Accordingly, this line of logic concludes, we cannot in fact be sure beyond doubt about the nature of reality. We can, however, seek to obtain some form of consensus, with others, of what is real. We can use this to practically guide us, on the assumption it seems to approximate some kind of valid reality.

    Consensus reality is therefore a term with two meanings. To those who adhere to the materialist philosophy, it signifies the objective overall space-time reality believed to exist irrespective of the perceptions of any given individual. For those who adhere to other philosophical views, it refers to the agreed-upon concepts of reality that people in the world, or a culture or group, believe are real, usually based upon their common experiences as they believe them to be.

    Throughout history, this has also raised a social question: What shall we make of those who do not agree with the consensus realities of others, or of the society they live in? Answers have varied from concluding that such people are eccentrics, mentally ill, divinely inspired or enlightened, or evil or demonic in nature. Reality enforcement is a term used for the coercive enforcement of the culturally accepted reality, upon non-conforming individuals. It has varied from indifference to incarceration, to death.

    General discussion
    Consensus reality may be understood by studying socially constructed reality, a subject within the sociology of knowledge. (Read page three of The Social Construction of Reality by Peter L. Berger and Thomas Luckmann.)

    Consider this example: reality is different for people who believe in God than for those who believe that science and mathematics are sufficient for explaining life, the universe, and everything. In societies where God-centered religions are dominant, that understanding would be the consensus reality, while the religious worldview would remain the non-consensus (or alternative) reality in a predominantly secular society where the consensus reality is grounded in science.

    In this way, different individuals and communities, at different developmental stages, have fundamentally different world views. These are not merely more mature views, but fundamentally different ones, with fundamentally different comprehensions of the world around them, and of the constructs within which they live. Thus, in terms of consensus reality, a society that is (for example) secular and one which believes every eventuality is due to gods and devils, will have very different consensus realities, and their entire beliefs on issues from science to slavery through to human sacrifice may differ in direct consequence because of the differences in consensus concerning the world they live in.

    Materialists
    Materialists, however, may not accept the idea of there being different possible realities for different people, so for them, only the first usage of the term consensus reality would make sense. To them, someone believing otherwise might be considered delusional.

    Objectivists
    Objectivists, though not materialists, also reject the notion of subjective reality; they hold that while each individual may indeed have his own perception of reality, that perception has no effect on what reality actually is; in fact, if the perception of reality differs significantly from the actual reality, serious negative consequences are bound to follow.

    Idealists
    Some idealists hold the view that there isn't one particular way things are, but rather that each person's personal reality is unique. Such idealists have the worldview which says that we each create our own reality, and while most people may be in general agreement (consensus) about what reality is like, they live in a different (or nonconsensus) reality.

    Views on the term "consensus reality"
    The connotation of the term "consensus reality" is, with few exceptions, disparaging: it is usually employed by idealist, surrealist, and other anti-realist theorists with the implication that this consensus reality is, to a greater or lesser extent, created by those who experience it. (The phrase "consensus reality" may be used more loosely to refer to any generally accepted set of beliefs.)

    Social aspects of consensus reality
    Some painters, writers and theorists, and individuals employing a number of means of action have attempted to oppose or undermine consensus reality. Salvador Dalí's intended by his paranoiac-critical method, for instance, to "systematize confusion thanks to a paranoia and active process of thought and so assist in discrediting completely the world of reality".

    Reality enforcement
    The theory of reality enforcement holds that belief in consensus reality (the "reality" of "reality enforcement" is used in this sense) — on which the apparent persistence of consensus reality's existence may depend — is "enforced" or promoted through various means including sanctions applied against those who challenge it.

    The theory of reality enforcement is opposed by those called "reality enforcers," who occasionally use the phrase in order to mock those who believe in the theory, or, more loosely what they see as farfetched theories or conspiracy theories generally. (It should be noted Alan C. Walter uses the phrase "reality enforcers" in a highly idiosyncratic way having nothing to do with the theory of reality enforcement.) These "reality enforcers" appeal to an objectivist theory of reality, rejecting multiple subjective realities which could diverge considerably; this makes nonsensical the theory of "reality enforcement".

    Believers in reality enforcement are typically sympathetic to anti-psychiatry. While Mental health codes in some United States states specify that a diminished "capacity to recognize reality" (taken from some definitions of psychosis) is part of the standard for mental illness, "there is controversy over what is considered out of touch with reality." Richard Rogers and Daniel W. Shuman, in their book Conducting Insanity Evaluations, have, however, said that the standard refers to the intactness of the individual's perception of external stimulae" and equated it with "reality testing," a definition that goes right to the heart of the argument. The validity of this as a standard, in general, has also been questioned, and some have compared "the process of forcefully instituting individuals for expressing their beliefs in society to reality enforcement."

    "Reality enforcement" is also used in a number of more or less related senses, as, for instance, to refer to the attempts of parents or others to coax or induce a person diagnosed with autism or Asperger's syndrome to abandon thoughts or behaviours typical of the syndrome(s). It is also used in other loose senses, such as strictly adhering to verisimilitude in clothing and makeup when playing a role, or (apparently) providing a "reality check" for another person.

    In a more general sense, "reality enforcement" is used to mean an (often violent or forceful) ending of a "fantasy" in the person, persons or group on whom it is enacted, or the assertion, using force, of some "reality" to those who are not aware of it, or are in denial about it.
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    Okay, Chuckie will take a bite, despite being wise enough to not be a committed red meat carnivore. Incidentally, don't ever try organic carrot juice, it really really sucks.

    I would classify myself as an Objectivist:

    Objectivists
    Objectivists, though not materialists, also reject the notion of subjective reality; they hold that while each individual may indeed have his own perception of reality, that perception has no effect on what reality actually is; in fact, if the perception of reality differs significantly from the actual reality, serious negative consequences are bound to follow.

    But I would not concede that subjective reality has no value or force in nature. It certainly does, what we believe is what forms us as people, and as people would, it informs those around us. Our influence, whether small or large, for better or worse is a tangible and energetic 'thing'. We should use it judiciously commensurate with the force we wield. I personally believe that if anyone knowingly exerts or let us call it exudes a socially counterproductive influence then they are resolutely evincing the negative consequences of misplaced perceptive reality. And as an objectivist would be inclined to say, that is simply bad.

    And those able within the platforms of social media have monstrously lurched forward with a club in hand to wreak havoc on the intellectually uninitiated for the most base of reasons, personal gain. There are no moral centers among the manipulators of society whose eyes veritably bulge at the awesome opportunities they are 'freely' provided.

    I would ask, how sacred is free speech when those that claim the right are hell-bent on their own rewards at the cost of their souls as well as those of all they reach. Free speech is only free when the result of it has no victims of lies, propaganda, hate, manipulation, and all the rest of the pantheon of evils.
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Chuckie View Post
    Okay, Chuckie will take a bite, despite being wise enough to not be a committed red meat carnivore. Incidentally, don't ever try organic carrot juice, it really really sucks.

    I would classify myself as an Objectivist:

    Objectivists
    Objectivists, though not materialists, also reject the notion of subjective reality; they hold that while each individual may indeed have his own perception of reality, that perception has no effect on what reality actually is; in fact, if the perception of reality differs significantly from the actual reality, serious negative consequences are bound to follow.

    But I would not concede that subjective reality has no value or force in nature. It certainly does, what we believe is what forms us as people, and as people would, it informs those around us. Our influence, whether small or large, for better or worse is a tangible and energetic 'thing'. We should use it judiciously commensurate with the force we wield. I personally believe that if anyone knowingly exerts or let us call it exudes a socially counterproductive influence then they are resolutely evincing the negative consequences of misplaced perceptive reality. And as an objectivist would be inclined to say, that is simply bad.

    And those able within the platforms of social media have monstrously lurched forward with a club in hand to wreak havoc on the intellectually uninitiated for the most base of reasons, personal gain. There are no moral centers among the manipulators of society whose eyes veritably bulge at the awesome opportunities they are 'freely' provided.

    I would ask, how sacred is free speech when those that claim the right are hell-bent on their own rewards at the cost of their souls as well as those of all they reach. Free speech is only free when the result of it has no victims of lies, propaganda, hate, manipulation, and all the rest of the pantheon of evils.
    I especially like the two last paragraphs quoted here-above.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Senior Member Aianawa's Avatar
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    When some facets of society will not engage for whatever reason, can you explain your choices for them ?

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    Senior Member Catsquotl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Chuckie View Post
    I would ask, how sacred is free speech when those that claim the right are hell-bent on their own rewards at the cost of their souls as well as those of all they reach. Free speech is only free when the result of it has no victims of lies, propaganda, hate, manipulation, and all the rest of the pantheon of evils.
    In which case cancel culture comes around the corner to make sure nobody is victimized in the course of free speech.
    Have a great day today

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    Quote Originally posted by Aianawa View Post
    When some facets of society will not engage for whatever reason, can you explain your choices for them ?
    Yes, I can, and I already have, but I cannot do anything about their unwillingness to listen.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Senior Member Aianawa's Avatar
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    Amish still barn carrying, gosh i love watching their community get together and lift houses or barns.

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    Part of my 'reality' growing up is summed up in the phrase "it's only a dream". I grew up in the "it's not real, it's a dream" society. So when I was sixteen and discovered that I was doing something that was supposed to be impossible, I had no one to talk to about it because it wasn't part of my consensus reality. So I was on my own with one of the most important aspects of my life.

    But that's better than going into denial. That would've been much worse. As the consensus changes I can find more and more people to talk to about these 'impossible' things.

    No meteors fell in France for a couple of centuries. Because rocks don't fall from the sky. Consensus reality. No records were kept. But the meteors still fell and those who saw them...probably kept it to themselves.

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    This was my first post which I drafted when you started this thread Chuckie, so here it is now.

    I've pointed to the tactic of claiming something over and over again to make people believe. Some people seem like they can't understand what the word censorship actually means. I contend that's not the case. They know exactly what it is. They are trying to change the paradigm, the 'template' as one member here likes to say. So they just double down and double down.

    The long-term problem, of course, is that a person ends up conditioning their own self. They may end up believing the B.S. they spread simply because they kept beating it into their own head. That's where denial slips into delusion.

    When folks want to believe, they eat it up. When they stay in their bubble they continue to believe.

    I recently heard that data is beginning to show that folks are better informed when they don't watch any news at all than if they watch Fox News. (that would be mostly Americans but Fox is available ubiquitously) It's so steeped in propaganda and misinformation that the people watching have their minds filled before they are able to examine and analyze information for themselves. They cannot discern what's going on and so end up less informed than someone who doesn't watch at all. That person is still able to learn directly from the environment and the people they interact with. You know, reality.

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    Senior Member Catsquotl's Avatar
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    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHylQRVN2Qs


    For what it's worth.
    Concensus reality says nothing about reality as it is. If there even is such a thing
    Just how we agree(or not) to talk about it.
    Have a great day today

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    That's quite a beautiful video. I recall the song well.

    And your words are very succinct, Catsquotl. Reality 'as it is' won't be known by any of us, imo, until our passing from this life into the next stage.

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    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    This was my first post which I drafted when you started this thread Chuckie, so here it is now.

    The long-term problem, of course, is that a person ends up conditioning their own self. They may end up believing the B.S. they spread simply because they kept beating it into their own head. That's where denial slips into delusion.

    That sounds an awful lot like Billzebub. He's been doing it for years on end, both with regard to the people he bans from his forum and with regard to the "whistleblowers" he's been endorsing.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    This was my first post which I drafted when you started this thread Chuckie, so here it is now.
    yeah, that was scientifically documented many years ago actually - The part about Faux news that is. Could there be any doubt?

    Quote Originally posted by Catsquotl View Post

    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHylQRVN2Qs


    For what it's worth.
    Concensus reality says nothing about reality as it is. If there even is such a thing
    Just how we agree(or not) to talk about it.
    Beautiful song, I don't remember it, perhaps that's why I'm steeped in American exceptionalism. I wonder if Mr. Sumner was thinking about Putin when he wrote this song?

    There is a consensus reality even if only 10 people out of 7 billion subscribe to it.
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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