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Thread: The Fred/Gracy Affair, and the Inter-Forum Aftermath Thereof

  1. #121
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Christian View Post
    I am not familiar with the "Vern" situation and don't plan on looking into it. I was referring to the situation with Maggie (see my link above) although the Vern situation sounded similar, but I don't know or care to.

    There may have problems with Vern and legitimate reasons to ban him, but just saying it is "right wing propaganda" would not be a valid one in my opinion. Your post above, Chris, is propaganda, just as mine in. They are attempts to influence people and move them away from their beliefs or at least challenge their current ones. What you call "propaganda" I would refer to as "challenging ideas". If I have the time and energy, I often welcome them as an opportunity to understand the world better and grow intellectually. They might educate me and lead me to new realizations, or I might wrestle with them and develop an even better understand about why my previous ideas were correct.

    If you say that you are (1) a liberal, free-thinking individual who advocates the open exchange of ideas, but also say that (2) you are for limiting or marginalizing the speech of people who are: (any of these)
    - right/left wing
    - "anti science"
    - "unhygenic"
    - "biased", "propagandists"
    - or any other simplistic label used to reduce other people's complex thoughts,

    then, your support for #2, completely contradicts statement #1.
    No, there is a significant difference between stating ideas and propaganda. I would suggest a serious deep dive into the nature of propaganda. It is the ostensible 'power position' of the speaker that can draw a line between opinion and propaganda. For example, purported social 'manipulators' are capable of doing great harm or good but in most cases prefer to do harm, albeit sometimes inadvertent due to their own ignorance.
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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  3. #122
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    Aragorn has an exquisite understanding of propaganda. The mods here as well as the forum's founder have always been in communication with each other and have worked together to make decisions. There is no mod or admin here who takes action without notifying and consulting the others.

    I've witnessed many people try to redefine both propaganda and censorship. The tactic of saying something over and over again does not actually make a thing true. So as many times as Aianawa complained about censorship, it was never happening. Over time it becomes an insult not only to the forum but to its members as well. Aianawa lasted only a couple weeks at PA before Bill himself ended the membership. It was his very unique language usage, as in very hard to even understand, which caused that.

    In an atmosphere where people want lies and unproven assertions to have equal time for the "sake of balance", it's even more important to avoid letting the lines get blurred when dealing with propaganda.

    Because it is very dangerous. People act on false, emotional information and can end up being harmed or harming others. Truth is not a free-for-all. It's not a 'matter of opinion'. Having personally seen a handful of people lose their lives to denial of reality and truth, I stand with Aragorn and the other mods regarding the handling of propaganda and its inherent dangers.

    (fyi, the lives lost which I refer to are unrelated to the pandemic)

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  5. #123
    Senior Member donk's Avatar
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    Anyone else here old enough to remember when there was content here BEFORE the 25th December 2013? Not to be conspiratorial, but I was concerned with Bill's censorship of LRon's OT3 "material"...and posted it over here. Not only was it enough to get Bill over here chastising me for the horror of what I was inflicting on poor unsuspecting uninitiated wobs (or whateverthefuck it is scientologists call their goyim, been too long since I thought about that stuff), sending a loooooong "private" message here--which I would post again, if not for this entire place being completely deleted/reset with little-to-no explanation why a week or so later (maybe sooner).

    In it, he suggested how my exposing that dreaded piece of paper (with the chicken scratch ravings of a psychotic lunatic about the "history" of 178 billion years ago when Xenu got mad) was likely the trigger for my first Multiple Sclerosis attack I ever experienced (that I had shared roughly around then on the forum). That, and the rest of the condescending bullshit he chased me over here to give me, got posted up here. I do not remember the exact sequence of events, it sure seemed like within days after I started a thread here to discuss censorship over there, this place disappeared for a minute, leaving no trace of the beforetimes....complete reset. So it goes...

    Anyways, pop over to PA, where i was trying to stick up for (his recently revealed) wife against the mob, but desperately wanting to be banned--I bitched about the mods PMing me after I had purposely stayed at my 500 PM limit (at the time) so no one (especially admin) would come at with some bullshit they didn't want the world to see--he had his mod tell me I was banned for asking for "special treatment" or some shit so I was not PA material. I thought the purpose of these places was to discuss things, and I prefer pulling up shit that might be uncomfortable--but what I believe to be the truth. If you don't want the forum to hear it, don't fucking say it--I was in "full transparency" mode and really thought there were enough good people over there at the time that it was worth trying to clean up. I notice now I cannot get the message it used to give me when trying to log in--something like "posting DMs in public", something I never did (over there ). I just figured everyone should know the actual religious belief of their (annoyingly self righteous) cult leader.

    Anyways--that was also just after ol' b-cup bill was running around making us all pretend we didn't know who his sooper-goode-secrit whistleblower was, as if somehow removing posts with mention of it somehow 'protected' corey's identity, so fucking dumb. It should be no surprise Q-mania took over, it was just a slightly more cryptic writing/narratives than the GoodET/ruiner ones that were going at the time, the one that slowly bled into the mainstream to avalanche into the disasters we are dealing with here in the states these days.

    If anyone has any snippets of the motives projected onto Gracy Steeves or other suspects in the caper from over there...I would love to hear them. I just can't dig in over there as much as I used to
    Last edited by donk, 3rd February 2022 at 12:24.
    What is the purpose of your presence?

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  7. #124
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    The scientology connection (in whatever form) was something I was unaware of when joining PA and would have been a massive red flag, had I been aware beforehand.

    Makes sense too, the way that place is run, with the secrecy, backstabbing and double-standards, it's like a microcosm of the main cult itself. I also remember how when I was banned over there and joined here shortly thereafter, the drama didn't stop, in fact it intensified with a particular member relentlessly attacking me and quite a lot of back-and-forth and accusations flying between the two forums. That person was subsequently banned from here, then it quietened down for a while. The drama is still visible in my original welcome thread over here.

    Things intensified again with Aragorn's ill-fated decision to build bridges with Bill and try to establish friendli(er) relations. I even considered rejoining then, but there wasn't too much enthusiasm for it on the other end, which I can understand.

    Now I have fucking burned down that bridge and nuked it for good measure...



    I don't know what I was thinking, that a cultish, paranoid place like that would ever be compatible with my rather unconventional views and convictions, especially religion wise. My participation there was always going to be an ill-fated venture given the basic incompatibility between Mesopotamian Polytheism and conspiratorial thinking, or scientology for that matter.

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  9. #125
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    Aragorn likely recalls the details better than I in terms of events in that time, donk. There was a big mistake made by one mod, there were issues with the forum itself, I just don't recall enough to be able to say anything substantive at the moment.

    I do recall that Aragorn posted about it at the time with thorough explanations and that best efforts were made to restore what could be restored.

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  11. #126
    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    Aragorn has an exquisite understanding of propaganda.
    Indeed, I do, and so does Wonkypedia.





    Source: The Free Dictionary


    prop·a·gan·da
    n.

    1. The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.
    2. Material disseminated by the advocates or opponents of a doctrine or cause: wartime propaganda.



    Source: The Free Dictionary





    Source: Wikipedia


    Propaganda is information that is not objective and is used primarily to influence an audience and further an agenda, often by presenting facts selectively to encourage a particular synthesis or perception, or using loaded language to produce an emotional rather than a rational response to the information that is presented. Propaganda is often associated with material prepared by governments, but activist groups, companies, religious organizations and the media can also produce propaganda.

    In the twentieth century, the term propaganda has often been associated with a manipulative approach, but propaganda historically was a neutral descriptive term.

    A wide range of materials and media are used for conveying propaganda messages, which changed as new technologies were invented, including paintings, cartoons, posters, pamphlets, films, radio shows, TV shows, and websites. Propaganda is now moving into a digital age utillizing bots, algorithms, to create computational propaganda and spread online fake or biased news using social media.

    In a 1929 literary debate with Edward Bernays, Everett Dean Martin argues that, “Propaganda is making puppets of us. We are moved by hidden strings which the propagandist manipulates.”


    [ continue reading here ]


    Source: Wikipedia





    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    The mods here as well as the forum's founder have always been in communication with each other and have worked together to make decisions. There is no mod or admin here who takes action without notifying and consulting the others.
    Exactly, but because I'm the one who's online here the most and who also happens to be the most vocal staff member when members misbehave, certain people think that I'm running a one-man band here, and that whenever we take administrative action toward a member, it would all be my decision and my doing.

    And the sad part of it is that whenever I then try explaining things to the members, it goes in one ear and out the other, because upon the next incident, I get the same allegation thrown in my face all over again.







    Quote Originally posted by donk View Post
    Anyone else here old enough to remember when there was content here BEFORE the 25th December 2013?
    It was before my time, but from what I understand, when Malc first installed vBulletin, he was too much of a newbie himself at the time ─ he is by no means an IT guy, but he's good at figuring things out on his own ─ and he didn't realize that vBulletin is commercial-only proprietary software, and that the "free" version he had obtained at the time was actually a pirated/cracked version.

    There were obviously issues with said "free" version ─ not an uncommon phenomenon when dealing with cracked software ─ and Malc lost all of the data in the database. That's why he then immediately purchased an end-user license for the official vBulletin 4.2.1 ─ the then current version, but by now already hugely outdated ─ but of course, everyone then had to re-register their account because vBulletin comes with a blank database, and the old one was completely lost due to data corruption.





    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    Aragorn likely recalls the details better than I in terms of events in that time, donk. There was a big mistake made by one mod, there were issues with the forum itself, I just don't recall enough to be able to say anything substantive at the moment.

    I do recall that Aragorn posted about it at the time with thorough explanations and that best efforts were made to restore what could be restored.
    Ah, no, Sister, that was a separate event. What you're talking of here happened in 2015, during the time that "Corey" "Goode" was posting here. He had two threads going on at the same time; one was just a thread where he posted updates on his alleged adventures within the equally alleged "Secret Space Program" ─ sorry, I couldn't help myself ─ and the other was a Q&A thread.

    What happened at some given point was that the then super moderator, Tonz, was given the task of splitting off Q&A posts from Corey's updates thread and moving them to the Q&A thread, but instead of doing that, Tonz must have had a brain fart and ended up unintentionally hard-deleting one of the two threads completely. Now, we do make two full backups every day ─ this is a fully automated process ─ but back then, there was a lot of activity, both because of Corey and because of his detractors from the Ruiner cult.

    Malc then restored the most recent backup in order to get Corey's thread restored ─ you cannot restore individual posts or threads, because it's a relational database and it's spread out across multiple files on the server's drive ─ but because there had been so much activity here at the forum since that last backup was made, the whole forum was wound back several hours and dozens of posts were lost, which caused quite an outcry of censorship and dictatorial moderation, and especially so among Corey's detractors. Despite him being a conman, Corey himself did show gratitude that his thread was restored.

    The incident did however scare Tonz so much that from there on, he became afraid of ever using his super moderator power again. A short while later, he and Church ─ the then administrator ─ had a falling out over something, and then Tonz stepped down and left the forum.

    A similar incident happened a couple of weeks later, when Malc tried to tweak something in the template files. Malc is dyslexic, and a punctuation error that he had made when installing the forum made the list of people who had clicked the Thanks button look very ugly and unprofessional. But in trying to fix things, he actually broke something else, and then too, the most recent backup was restored, with as a result pretty much the same outrage among the Ruiner groupies over the fact that their most recent posts had all vanished.

    So there were two such incidents, both of them during 2015, but the incident donk is referring to happened in 2013, long before I was even registered here ─ hell, I hadn't even registered at PA yet at that time.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  13. #127
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    I do agree with what Christian is saying here, I definitely do not like either side of this great debate labeling the other's opinions as "dangerous", and therefore subject to censorship. I do think much of what Aragorn was speaking to there concerned Vern, who really does tend to get spammy with his stuff. Not sure how much has actually been disappeared, usually it just winds up in the known hoaxes area. If I did happen to see Aragorn just erasing anti vax material, I would have a problem with that and bring it to the forum's attention.
    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Nothing has been deleted here, and you should by now already long know that we don't do that kind of thing here, Fred. That's just not who we are.
    I gotcha. Didn't think so, that's why I was sure to ad if I did happen to catch it happening, I'd bring it to the forum's attention.

    Thanks for posting this from Bill, I have a few thoughts on the matter:

    Re your current dialog with Fred on TOT (a public thread), he has it 100%
    all wrong
    . This kind of thing is important.

    I did say to the other mods that if someone's pro-vaxx view was extreme
    and insistent, I'd consider whether it was appropriate for them to remain a
    member of the forum. That was several months ago now.

    But I also said that it was very important to allow free speech about this,
    and no pro-vaxxer posting on Avalon has ever been silenced in any way.
    (My guess is that there are so many [science-driven!] anti-covid-vaxxers on
    Avalon that any pro-vaxxers just take themselves away, or stay silent.)
    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    I specifically remember Bill talking about how someone simply saying they've had the vaccine and are feeling just fine, are in essence guilty of negligent homicide for unwittingly spreading dangerous propaganda. I also remember him saying he would seriously consider banning anybody on his forum, who came out openly promoting the vaccine. The latter case may well have been in the mod room or mod Discord chat.
    Huh. Well for being "100% wrong", our memories match up rather well. And what does it matter how long ago it was? The intent doesn't go away with time. Pro vaxxers would definitely remain silent on the vax issue for a reason, and it's not just because they're vastly outnumbered.

    The only flat-out censorship there has EVER been on Avalon is about the
    Flat Earth thing.
    Yet there's still that pesky thread which remains deleted...

    The Trump And The Vaccine thread that was first closed and then
    soft-deleted was NOT done to stifle any debate. The thread had been going
    for 9 pages and 168 posts, having been started (by Fred/Gracy) on 23
    December.

    It was closed on 8 January — by Avalon moderator Harmony, not by me, and
    without my knowledge, as she is in Tasmania and it was closed at 2:28 am my
    time when I was fast asleep. It was entirely her decision, and she was
    the only mod on duty then.

    But it was my decision to soft-delete it (13 hours later, after discussing
    it with the other mods), NOT TO STOP THE ON-TOPIC DISCUSSION (which I had
    not personally taken part in at all), but because absolutely no on-topic
    discussion was happening any more
    He was looking for a reason, and the decision to delete it was not open to debate. It just happened. There was no on topic discussion happening any more, because of Teacher's Pet which will be discussed next.

    There was nothing but a verbally violent nuclear mudfight continuing
    between Fred/Gracy and Avalon member iota, and several others who had
    joined in. It was a chaotic embarrassment of an online bar-room brawl.

    Nothing was to be gained by keeping the thread open or even visible. We had
    to let the entire thing cool right down.
    The thread was going just fine until Teacher's Pet, "iota" the untouchable came crashing in yet again with her usual lunatic ranting and raving. This time she managed to get "DNA" involved, who started viciously going after Dennis Leahy for merely stating his opinions. After all if you're not pro Trump, best stand the fuck by. So it was quite the tag team going on, these two certainly were making things ugly, but Bill always liked to make it look as if "Gracy" was right there in the middle of it fists a swinging, which was never the case.

    "Gracy" wound up blocking these two from the thread, with an explanation, but this was quickly reversed by Bill as per the usual slew complaints by iota. So when he says "Harmony" closed it, that's true, because it was Bill himself who allowed it to continue to deteriorate.

    Our idea had been to review it all when it was out of view and then delete
    maybe 40-50 posts, and then to re-open it after it had all been cleaned up.
    But 5 days after that (13 January), the Fred=Gracy thing was revealed, THAT
    became the focus of attention, and so the Trump thread has been very much
    forgotten since then.
    Well there's that "Our" thing again, which is another gross misrepresentation, as this was an ongoing solo operation. You know I've got the screenshots of all 14+ pages of a mod report thread titled "iota vs. Gracy", and nowhere in this time frame can I find a discussion about cleaning up the thread and reopening it. It was just gone, and that was the end of it. What I do have, is all of the other active mods basically pleading with Bill to do something about iota, who yet again, was being blessed from above to spin wildly out of control.

    The longer that report thread went on, the more it became clear to every mod and admin in that room, that iota was a loose cannon that needed to be dealt with. To the bitter end Bill would never allow it, and always tried (unsuccessfully) to place all the blame back on Gracy. It was actually quite bizarre, and obviously so.

    I think everyone finally saw this very strange tactic applied in Gracy's banning thread, with Bill pushing her on the forum at large as he had done in the mods room, and they weren't having it either.

    Strange days have found us:
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    Speaking for myself, being accused of NLP and double-plus-good-speak is just funny in light of all this. I had it easy being reamed by bsbray. And maligned by others' accusations. It's a nothing-burger compared to this stuff.

    Gracey got the both-siderism on a very grand scale, didn't she?

    These sorts of dynamics expose the foundation, which clearly isn't very stable over there. But many seem to enjoy the roiling waters. I only saw the emergence of Corey Goode. I've heard tell of a long string of others.

    Some become untouchable over there, like iota.

    It's sad to see that some points of view continue to be suppressed due to fear of attack. It's terrible whether it's at a forum or on a much larger scale.

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    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    I had it easy being reamed by bsbray.
    You've misspelled Brian Brainwash™. It is a trademark, so you have to use it correctly.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    You've misspelled Brian Brainwash™. It is a trademark, so you have to use it correctly.
    that's funny... I worked with a guy in the space program who became a dear friend, just a really good guy, hilarious comedian... so good, in fact, he regularly sends me naked pictures of his wife ... in all poses, one can imagine. Anyway, I digress, he wasn't the brightest guy on the block and one day someone accidentally misspelled his first name as 'Brain' rather than 'Brian'. I laughed about that forever and he would always ask me why I was laughing. What could I say, I just stopped laughing, outwardly anyway.
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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  21. #131
    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by BeastOfBologna View Post
    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    You've misspelled Brian Brainwash™. It is a trademark, so you have to use it correctly.
    that's funny... I worked with a guy in the space program who became a dear friend, just a really good guy, hilarious comedian... so good, in fact, he regularly sends me naked pictures of his wife ... in all poses, one can imagine.
    You've sure got some weird friends, dude...

    Quote Originally posted by BeastOfBologna View Post
    Anyway, I digress, he wasn't the brightest guy on the block and one day someone accidentally misspelled his first name as 'Brain' rather than 'Brian'. I laughed about that forever and he would always ask me why I was laughing. What could I say, I just stopped laughing, outwardly anyway.
    One of the episodes of the Gerry & Sylvia Anderson series "Space: 1999" was called "Brian The Brain" ─ I have it on my computer. Said episode is about a psychotic and homicidal non-humanoid robot with an outspoken early-to-mid 20th-century American accent.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  23. #132
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    You've sure got some weird friends, dude...



    One of the episodes of the Gerry & Sylvia Anderson series "Space: 1999" was called "Brian The Brain" ─ I have it on my computer. Said episode is about a psychotic and homicidal non-humanoid robot with an outspoken early-to-mid 20th-century American accent.
    lol, yeah, he sorta gave me an early hint regarding his sexual proclivities ... I was thinking 'Whoa' ... The community I live in has a pretty 'wild' reputation in some respects ... mostly sexual.
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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    Senior Member donk's Avatar
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    All ya gotta do to prove BR censors whenever he wants, is to post an image of the OT3 “materials”. You and whoever else posted on thread will receive a pm about how irresponsible and dangerous OP is yo expose anyone to it, as explanation to why it disappeared.

    I came here to prove that theory, and “synchronistically” within in days the platform that held the “proof” collapsed. Maybe later I will see if I can dig it up in my emails, for old time’s sake.

    What bothered me at the time, is I pretty much right in front of his eyes showed such disbelief that someone I respected so
    much (at the time) even had those beliefs (that just looking at the OT3 causes health problems to the uninitiated). But he did enough, enough to cross forums to “warn” me or whatever he thought he was doing. The whole time I was like “well why aren’t you telling the rest of the forum? Why am I getting pms, delete my images and explain to everyone what you think I am doing?

    Anyway…I think this point is lost on his followers, I believe in one of the posts on the gracy thread he ADMITS to asking Gracy to be mod? Completely unprovoked?

    He does mention Herve has good sense of character judgement by warning him against it, but isn’t that an admission he thought GM was good contribution to his club to make him mod (at that point)? And that his judgement is pretty shitty?
    What is the purpose of your presence?

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    Aragorn (4th February 2022), Chris (4th February 2022), Dreamtimer (3rd February 2022), Emil El Zapato (3rd February 2022), Fred Steeves (3rd February 2022)

  27. #134
    Retired Member Hungary
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    Quote Originally posted by donk View Post
    All ya gotta do to prove BR censors whenever he wants, is to post an image of the OT3 “materials”. You and whoever else posted on thread will receive a pm about how irresponsible and dangerous OP is yo expose anyone to it, as explanation to why it disappeared.

    I came here to prove that theory, and “synchronistically” within in days the platform that held the “proof” collapsed. Maybe later I will see if I can dig it up in my emails, for old time’s sake.

    What bothered me at the time, is I pretty much right in front of his eyes showed such disbelief that someone I respected so
    much (at the time) even had those beliefs (that just looking at the OT3 causes health problems to the uninitiated). But he did enough, enough to cross forums to “warn” me or whatever he thought he was doing. The whole time I was like “well why aren’t you telling the rest of the forum? Why am I getting pms, delete my images and explain to everyone what you think I am doing?

    Anyway…I think this point is lost on his followers, I believe in one of the posts on the gracy thread he ADMITS to asking Gracy to be mod? Completely unprovoked?

    He does mention Herve has good sense of character judgement by warning him against it, but isn’t that an admission he thought GM was good contribution to his club to make him mod (at that point)? And that his judgement is pretty shitty?
    There's crazy, there's crazy-crazy and then there is scientology...

    Can't believe that an intelligent person could fall for the claptrap.

    At 19, I was offered a job, where my chief task would have been to translate LRon's entire body of work into Hungarian. They showed me several heaving shelves full of his brainfarts. I politely declined and took a Hotel Receptionist position instead (it was only for 6 months anyway). Best decision I ever took as they would have clearly groomed me to move up the organisation. They promised to send me to America for training and it would have been my job to keep in contact with HQ. It looked super-sketchy even back then, when I knew next to nothing about Scientology.

  28. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Chris For This Useful Post:

    Aragorn (4th February 2022), donk (5th February 2022), Dreamtimer (4th February 2022), Emil El Zapato (4th February 2022), Fred Steeves (4th February 2022)

  29. #135
    Retired Member United States
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    Quote Originally posted by donk View Post
    All ya gotta do to prove BR censors whenever he wants, is to post an image of the OT3 “materials”. You and whoever else posted on thread will receive a pm about how irresponsible and dangerous OP is yo expose anyone to it, as explanation to why it disappeared.

    I came here to prove that theory, and “synchronistically” within in days the platform that held the “proof” collapsed. Maybe later I will see if I can dig it up in my emails, for old time’s sake.

    What bothered me at the time, is I pretty much right in front of his eyes showed such disbelief that someone I respected so
    much (at the time) even had those beliefs (that just looking at the OT3 causes health problems to the uninitiated). But he did enough, enough to cross forums to “warn” me or whatever he thought he was doing. The whole time I was like “well why aren’t you telling the rest of the forum? Why am I getting pms, delete my images and explain to everyone what you think I am doing?

    Anyway…I think this point is lost on his followers, I believe in one of the posts on the gracy thread he ADMITS to asking Gracy to be mod? Completely unprovoked?

    He does mention Herve has good sense of character judgement by warning him against it, but isn’t that an admission he thought GM was good contribution to his club to make him mod (at that point)? And that his judgement is pretty shitty?
    Hey donk. Maybe you should post those OT3 materials here. We wouldn't scrub them. And it would save us all a handful of 50K fees paid to that 'church'. Since we're already enlightened over here there's no worry about our brains burning or anything.

    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    There's crazy, there's crazy-crazy and then there is scientology...

    Can't believe that an intelligent person could fall for the claptrap.

    At 19, I was offered a job, where my chief task would have been to translate LRon's entire body of work into Hungarian. They showed me several heaving shelves full of his brainfarts. I politely declined and took a Hotel Receptionist position instead (it was only for 6 months anyway). Best decision I ever took as they would have clearly groomed me to move up the organisation. They promised to send me to America for training and it would have been my job to keep in contact with HQ. It looked super-sketchy even back then, when I knew next to nothing about Scientology.
    Great choice. You don't want to fall from grace and end up in one of their prison holes. Miscavige's wife hasn't been seen in public for years. Is she even still breathing? Who knows?

    Freedom of Religion is not supposed to be interpreted to tolerate this level of wrong.

  30. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dreamtimer For This Useful Post:

    Aragorn (4th February 2022), Emil El Zapato (4th February 2022)

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