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Thread: The Fred/Gracy Affair, and the Inter-Forum Aftermath Thereof

  1. #106
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    Hi Christian,

    I'll have to correct you there, you simply haven't been a member long enough to make that judgement call.

    Vern has been sent on a little holiday for spreading right-wing propaganda and not listening to reason, despite repeated warnings and not for the first time either.

    For the record, no topic is off-limits on TOT, including ivermectin, the origins of covid or the risks and dangers associated with the vaccines. If you peek into the Covid thread, we've had extensive discussions on all these topics and arguments were made pro and contra without censorship. I for one am not a huge fan of the vaccines and have posted Robert Malone's interviews with Brett Weinstein and Joe Rogan, which should still be up.

    I understand that perhaps you feel we are ganging up on TOT members who may also be members over on PA.

    Not at all, like all of us have said repeatedly, plenty of good people over there and some of the finest ones are also members over here. What many (but not all) of us object to are some of the underhanded tactics, the forum politics and the fact that what can only be called far-right propaganda is allowed to flourish without any checks and balances.
    What's even worse, as I refreshed my 'impressions'. There is just no 'awareness' beyond what is reinforced among one another. It is depressing for me, more than that, it is generally infuriating. As I've always believed and stated, it is one thing to be stubborn and it is another thing to be stupid. Stupid AND Stubborn has the effect on me of a descending pyroclastic cloud.
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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    Quote Originally posted by Octopus Garden View Post
    Can you give an example where free speech is or was not tolerated here, Christian?
    Yes, a link is below, but first I apologize for getting this slightly wrong. I reread the post and it isn't exactly censorship, but it isn't far away from it either. It was a threat to marginalize someones speech. Not quite as reprehensible, but still unfortunate.

    https://jandeane81.com/showthread.ph...#post842009502

    Quote Originally posted by Octopus Garden View Post
    Just as an example, Dr.Robert Malone is not legit.
    I disagree 100% with that, but I 100% support your right to say that on any forum. I really have no desire to get off track on the topic of vaxxes here, just on the right to express ideas about all subjects, including vaxxes. How can you really be sure that vaxxes are safe and effective, if you tune out information from people who criticize them? How can you know anything is true is you aren't willing to examine the idea that the same thing is false? To insulated your self from ever being challenged insures that you will be stuck in your own thoughts forever.

    The problem with letting ideological priors set the tone for your investigations of a matter, is you can easily get stuck in echo chambers.
    When you describe other people's thoughts and ideas as biased and ideological and your own as unbiased and objective, when you simply encapsulate them as "unscientific", "unAmerican", "fake news", "unhygenic" or whatever, and when you just put a simple label on them, instead of looking at the content of the thoughts, the information, the logic behind them, if you just reduce other people's intelligence with a label that you can dismiss them, you are intellectually lazy, and will quickly reach a point of complete arrogance. And when you use your power to silence and marginalize them, then you are heading down the road to authoritarianism.

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  5. #108
    Senior Member Canada
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    Christian, This is how I described my stance on the vaccine.

    "But...here's the thing. I am not so thoroughly persuaded, by my current point of view, that I will ignore the best most highly qualified contrary information, when it comes along. Nobody should have that degree of certainty about anything, imo"


    My opinion about the legitimacy of Malone and Geert are related, but don't stem entirely from the same body of sentiment.

    I don't think people who are anti-vaccine are necessarily stupid. Some of them are. For some people, a basic stupidity and emotional immaturity is the foundation upon which every bloody opinion they come to, rests.

    But I know many people who are highly intelligent and anti-vaccine. I have a strong sense that they have a built in bias that has guided them. For example, letting anti-big pharma guide their opinions on the vaccine. I am anti-big pharma, as well. Don't trust them much at all. But, I also think, objectively speaking it is possible that both 'Big Pharma is bad,' and 'They have probably created a vaccine that works,' can coexist as ideas. Its pretty common for people not to be able to tolerate that kind of cognitive dissonance, and I get that. But some can make that leap.

    Do I think everybody who is pro-vaccine is intellectually superior? No, not at all. If their pro-vaccine point of view stems from an overall hyper-conformist attitude towards society, that isn't much better.

    Objectivity, taking emotion out of decisions, opinions, works best for me. And that is why I will be quite happy to change my point of view, if solid objective evidence, coming from a source I trust, backed by peer reviewed studies, shows me that I am mistaken. Its no skin off my nose.

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  7. #109
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Christian View Post
    For moderators to silence or ban people for such ideas is unacceptable.
    I do agree with what Christian is saying here, I definitely do not like either side of this great debate labeling the other's opinions as "dangerous", and therefore subject to censorship. I do think much of what Aragorn was speaking to there concerned Vern, who really does tend to get spammy with his stuff. Not sure how much has actually been disappeared, usually it just winds up in the known hoaxes area. If I did happen to see Aragorn just erasing anti vax material, I would have a problem with that and bring it to the forum's attention.

    And every mod here knows full well I would do that. I don't play sides.

    Now having said that Christian, I specifically remember Bill talking about how someone simply saying they've had the vaccine and are feeling just fine, are in essence guilty of negligent homicide for unwittingly spreading dangerous propaganda. I also remember him saying he would seriously consider banning anybody on his forum, who came out openly promoting the vaccine. The latter case may well have been in the mod room or mod Discord chat.

    Now I'm not pro vax OR anti vax, but I very much think both sides should be able to speak freely in any setting, without being labeled as dangerous. You know, the marketplace of ideas thing.

    But anyway, I sat on my hands for a long time over there watching the vax being blamed for mass genocide, melting people's brains, the whole 9 yards and you know exactly what I'm talking about. The slightest peep otherwise could be very costly. But when I saw Orange Jesus promoting the vax, not a damn word about it, suddenly it's okay (in his case) to spread the pro vax message far and wide. So I finally started the thread "Trump and the Vaccine" wondering how this could be.

    And guess what? Bill disappeared that thread because he saw it as so divisive and dangerous. How dare anyone point out the cognitive dissonance going on with that.

    If I say I had the vax and am doing fine, I'm dangerous; if Trump goes out promoting the vax to millions of people, it's okay that's cool, nothing to see here folks.

    Are you cool with whole threads being disappeared over there by a one man decree?
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    Hi Christian,

    I'll have to correct you there, you simply haven't been a member long enough to make that judgement call.

    Vern has been sent on a little holiday for spreading right-wing propaganda and not listening to reason, despite repeated warnings and not for the first time either.
    I am not familiar with the "Vern" situation and don't plan on looking into it. I was referring to the situation with Maggie (see my link above) although the Vern situation sounded similar, but I don't know or care to.

    There may have problems with Vern and legitimate reasons to ban him, but just saying it is "right wing propaganda" would not be a valid one in my opinion. Your post above, Chris, is propaganda, just as mine in. They are attempts to influence people and move them away from their beliefs or at least challenge their current ones. What you call "propaganda" I would refer to as "challenging ideas". If I have the time and energy, I often welcome them as an opportunity to understand the world better and grow intellectually. They might educate me and lead me to new realizations, or I might wrestle with them and develop an even better understand about why my previous ideas were correct.

    If you say that you are (1) a liberal, free-thinking individual who advocates the open exchange of ideas, but also say that (2) you are for limiting or marginalizing the speech of people who are: (any of these)
    - right/left wing
    - "anti science"
    - "unhygenic"
    - "biased", "propagandists"
    - or any other simplistic label used to reduce other people's complex thoughts,

    then, your support for #2, completely contradicts statement #1.

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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    Now having said that Christian, I specifically remember Bill talking about how someone simply saying they've had the vaccine and are feeling just fine, are in essence guilty of negligent homicide for unwittingly spreading dangerous propaganda. I also remember him saying he would seriously consider banning anybody on his forum, who came out openly promoting the vaccine. The latter case may well have been in the mod room or mod Discord chat.

    Are you cool with whole threads being disappeared over there by a one man decree?
    No, absolutely not. The idea that a majority of people take the vax and "feel fine" isn't even controversial in my opinion and doesn't tell one the whole story about what the "vax" is. And, I don't claim to know what the vax really is - and the only way for us to understand that is to hear from both sides of the coin.

    In Bill's defense, I will say it is one thing for him to say he would ban provaxxers in his backroom discussion with mods, and it is another to say that publicly on the forum. But the former is not a good harbinger.

    And full disclosure about me: I am for keeping the "Q-anon" thread at PA into the members only area, not because of any of the ideas expressed there, but because is has created a tribalist anti-intellectual community that is abusive to anyone who questions their faith based belief system.

    I think my thoughts about forums and censorship are summed up in your little quote at the bottom of your posts Fred:

    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates
    In the same way, a forum that does not permit challenging opposing views is not worth spending time on.
    Last edited by Christian, 3rd February 2022 at 00:10.

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    Christian, Let me interject for a moment.

    The idea that a majority of people take the vax and "feel fine" isn't even controversial in my opinion and doesn't tell one the whole story about what the "vax" is
    Are you responding to Fred, because it isn't clear from the above statement. Maybe you could clarify?

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    Quote Originally posted by Octopus Garden View Post
    Christian, Let me interject for a moment.

    Are you responding to Fred, because it isn't clear from the above statement. Maybe you could clarify?
    Yes, Fred said someone said they took the vax and felt fine and that was controversial and/or speech that should be banned on the PA forum. I am think there must be a little more to the story.

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    Senior Member PurpleLama's Avatar
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    Ok, Fred and Christian, explain yourselves.

    Man, oh man, gears a turnin'
    Sometimes God shines his magic light beam from outer space, and it works in mysterious ways.

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    Senior Member Morocco modwiz's Avatar
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    Oh my. The Shire is abuzz this night.
    "To learn who rules over you simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" -- Voltaire

    "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."-- Eleanor Roosevelt

    "Misery loves company. Wisdom has to look for it." -- Anonymous

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  21. #116
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Christian View Post
    Yes, Fred said someone said they took the vax and felt fine and that was controversial and/or speech that should be banned on the PA forum. I am think there must be a little more to the story.
    Well Christian, the person in question was me, in relating that I had suffered no great harm in getting both Moderna shots. The shock of it! But for the life of me I can't locate the exchange again to copy/paste here, so let's just call it a day on that because I currently cannot prove Bill's very adverse reaction to this dangerous talk, on the grounds that speaking such could result in the death of many people in this slow motion genocide.

    So let's just stick to the gist of things. You sounded most displeased at the thought that this forum may censor something, and I pointed out that Gracy's "Trump and the Vaccine" thread was disappeared over yonder, on account of how divisive it was to question why it seemed to be okay that Trump was out there proudly cheerleading for his vaccine. I don't recall any threads disappearing here at the mere wave of Caesar's hand as that one was, so I thought that rather important to point out here for the record.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    Well Christian, the person in question was me, in relating that I had suffered no great harm in getting both Moderna shots.
    Well thanks for that clarification. Glad you didn't suffer any ill effects from the vax.

    Okay, I do remember that thread and I thought "Gracy" was honestly trying to engage people about how they could be 1) passionately, almost religiously, pro-Trump and 2) anti-vax at the same time, without questioning Trumps support for the vax. And pointing out that contradiction was causing a few members to go absolutely bonkers. Anyway, I thought your idea for the thread might be a good way to move them from their stuck place, but clearly many of them were hellbent on maintaining their belief system.

    I had no idea that the thread was deleted. There were some embarrassing things said there, but not by you. Bill called you a provacateur, but I would say you were just trying to challenge people in a way they needed to be challenged.

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    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Statement

    Quote Originally posted by Christian View Post
    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    The only thing we censor here is misinformation that could potentially lead to people dying ─ as with the Covid-19-related junk that Vern has been spamming across multiple threads lately, and that has already gotten people killed ─ or that is otherwise nefarious in some way, like hate speech, political propaganda, etc. And of course, when there is mudslinging going on between two members here, then we'll clean that up too,. But that's not really censorship; that's just forum hygiene.
    And that is exactly the reason why I have been a "lurking" member here for the last two and a half years. If you can not have an open and honest debate about every single intellectual idea that sincerely concerns people, then you can't claim that the space you provide is part of an open and free society. To automatically define information that is critical of vaccines as "info that leads to people dying" is foolish and simplistic. If there is a problem with information you don't like, it should be countered with more information and ideas, not silenced. It's one thing when members counter ideas with insults, threats and personal attacks, but it is totally unacceptable when moderators do it.
    First of all, nothing has been deleted here. All we do with proven misinformation and propaganda ─ as what Aianawa has been spamming across multiple threads for years now ─ is park it in our designated Misinformation, Disinformation, Propaganda & Hoaxes category. As I understand it, Project Avalon has a similar (but most likely differently named) section somewhere, although I will also add that I've never actually seen it ─ if it does exist, then it could be members-only.

    Secondly, it is also not the censoring of a debate, because Aianawa doesn't debate ─ nobody here understand his lingo anyway. All he does is post videos and sloppily copied articles from questionable sites ─ including advertising links ─ with a single sweep of his mouse. And if you counter him, then he'll either just ignore you or he'll accuse you of censorship, dictatorship, or whatever. He lives in his own little universe, and he rejects anything from what he (often wrongfully) perceives as mainstream science with extreme prejudice, despite the fact that he never even went to high school and has no understanding whatsoever of anything to do with science. And the worst part of it is that most of what he posts is only a regurgitation of what he had already posted earlier.

    Now that is disrespectful, and if/when a member behaves like that, spams threads that aren't even his and have nothing to do with what he's spamming there, and drowns out the other discussions/conversations on the forum through the sheer volume of his spamming, then the staff has no other option but to intervene.

    Vern/Aianawa has been a member here for many years already, and he's not a bad person at all, and that is why we've tolerated his behavior and have tried to talk sense into him for years already. But he does have his obsessions, and lately his behavior has stepped things up a few notches. He's becoming more and more defiant, which is why he has now been sent on a little vacation ─ for the second time already. And, with it, he has now also been given his final warning, because we simply cannot allow that situation to continue. It would break my heart to have to show him to the door ─ and in that case, it would be a forced retirement rather than a ban ─ but a line has to be drawn.

    As for turiya, he too was issued warning after warning, and he was very careful, manipulative and insidious. He refused to back down with the posting of far-right propaganda and hate speech, and whenever we closed his threads ─ note: they were not deleted! ─ he simply started hijacking other threads and using those for posting the same far-right propaganda and hate speech. And so eventually we did have to show him to the door, but considering that he was quite a bit more aggressive and that the material he posted was also far more repulsive than what Vern posts, turiya was banned for life.

    We expect our members to behave responsibly. This is a discussion forum, not a propaganda billboard, least of all one dedicated to far-right US American politics.





    Quote Originally posted by Christian View Post
    Quote Originally posted by Octopus Garden View Post
    Can you give an example where free speech is or was not tolerated here, Christian?
    Yes, a link is below, but first I apologize for getting this slightly wrong. I reread the post and it isn't exactly censorship, but it isn't far away from it either. It was a threat to marginalize someones speech. Not quite as reprehensible, but still unfortunate.

    https://jandeane81.com/showthread.ph...#post842009502
    As it just so happens to be ─ and I am really tired of having to explain myself over and over again on account of this subject ─ I am both a high-functioning autistic adult and someone educated in the medical and paramedical fields (among many other things).

    The claim that autism would be caused by vaccines has not only been scientifically disproven ─ the autism spectrum comprises many seemingly different conditions, but they all stem from a certain neurological makeup which itself is the result of (at present time) 127 positively identified genes, and possibly more ─ but it is also highly insulting toward autistic people, myself included, because the disproven theory that autism would be caused by vaccines automatically implies that autism would be some kind of brain damage, whereas it simply is a different neurological makeup, similar to how a feline brain is wired. Yes, cats are autistic.

    Maggie is a former nurse, so she should know better than to vehemently support a proven fraudster like Andrew Wakefield, but she has some sort of idolizing obsession with the guy, and she too would not relent. That is why I told her that whatever point she was trying to make with that thread ─ and comparing Julian Assange's fate to vaccine debates was a completely nonsensial correlation anyway ─ was going to end up in the hoax section if she was going to champion Andrew Wakefield on it.

    Furthermore, she was not shown to the door. She asked to be retired, and we gave her 24 hours to reconsider ─ which is somewhat of a tradition around here whenever someone requests retirement ─ but she did not rescind her request, and therefore her account was indeed retired, as she had requested. And the thread ─ which was obviously and ostensibly driven by Maggie's neuroticism rather than by any fathomable kind of logic ─ was then ultimately parked in the hoax section, where it belongs.





    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    I do agree with what Christian is saying here, I definitely do not like either side of this great debate labeling the other's opinions as "dangerous", and therefore subject to censorship. I do think much of what Aragorn was speaking to there concerned Vern, who really does tend to get spammy with his stuff. Not sure how much has actually been disappeared, usually it just winds up in the known hoaxes area. If I did happen to see Aragorn just erasing anti vax material, I would have a problem with that and bring it to the forum's attention.
    Nothing has been deleted here, and you should by now already long know that we don't do that kind of thing here, Fred. That's just not who we are.

    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    Now having said that Christian, I specifically remember Bill talking about how someone simply saying they've had the vaccine and are feeling just fine, are in essence guilty of negligent homicide for unwittingly spreading dangerous propaganda. I also remember him saying he would seriously consider banning anybody on his forum, who came out openly promoting the vaccine. The latter case may well have been in the mod room or mod Discord chat.

    Now I'm not pro vax OR anti vax, but I very much think both sides should be able to speak freely in any setting, without being labeled as dangerous. You know, the marketplace of ideas thing.

    But anyway, I sat on my hands for a long time over there watching the vax being blamed for mass genocide, melting people's brains, the whole 9 yards and you know exactly what I'm talking about. The slightest peep otherwise could be very costly. But when I saw Orange Jesus promoting the vax, not a damn word about it, suddenly it's okay (in his case) to spread the pro vax message far and wide. So I finally started the thread "Trump and the Vaccine" wondering how this could be.

    And guess what? Bill disappeared that thread because he saw it as so divisive and dangerous. How dare anyone point out the cognitive dissonance going on with that.

    If I say I had the vax and am doing fine, I'm dangerous; if Trump goes out promoting the vax to millions of people, it's okay that's cool, nothing to see here folks.

    Are you cool with whole threads being disappeared over there by a one man decree?
    As it just so happens to be, Bill saw your above post here before I did ─ I only just got up, and the first thing I check is my email, before firing up a browser ─ and he wrote an email to someone whose email address I do not recognize, with myself copied in, and with the permission to forward and/or post the contents of that message.

    I am not going to be quoting the entire message, but I will quote the pertinent section, given that Bill gave his explicit permission to do so, and because I do feel that he does have the right to respond to the allegation, as well as that I personally find his explanation ─ whether one chooses to believe him or not ─ quite plausible and consistent with what I have come to witness as his style of handling problematic threads on his forum during my tenure at PA as an administrator.



    [...]

    Re your current dialog with Fred on TOT (a public thread), he has it 100%
    all wrong
    . This kind of thing is important.

    I did say to the other mods that if someone's pro-vaxx view was extreme
    and insistent, I'd consider whether it was appropriate for them to remain a
    member of the forum. That was several months ago now.

    But I also said that it was very important to allow free speech about this,
    and no pro-vaxxer posting on Avalon has ever been silenced in any way.
    (My guess is that there are so many [science-driven!] anti-covid-vaxxers on
    Avalon that any pro-vaxxers just take themselves away, or stay silent.)

    The only flat-out censorship there has EVER been on Avalon is about the
    Flat Earth thing.

    The Trump And The Vaccine thread that was first closed and then
    soft-deleted was NOT done to stifle any debate. The thread had been going
    for 9 pages and 168 posts, having been started (by Fred/Gracy) on 23
    December.

    It was closed on 8 January — by Avalon moderator Harmony, not by me, and
    without my knowledge, as she is in Tasmania and it was closed at 2:28 am my
    time when I was fast asleep. It was entirely her decision, and she was
    the only mod on duty then.

    But it was my decision to soft-delete it (13 hours later, after discussing
    it with the other mods), NOT TO STOP THE ON-TOPIC DISCUSSION (which I had
    not personally taken part in at all), but because absolutely no on-topic
    discussion was happening any more.

    There was nothing but a verbally violent nuclear mudfight continuing
    between Fred/Gracy and Avalon member iota, and several others who had
    joined in. It was a chaotic embarrassment of an online bar-room brawl.

    Nothing was to be gained by keeping the thread open or even visible. We had
    to let the entire thing cool right down.

    Our idea had been to review it all when it was out of view and then delete
    maybe 40-50 posts, and then to re-open it after it had all been cleaned up.
    But 5 days after that (13 January), the Fred=Gracy thing was revealed, THAT
    became the focus of attention, and so the Trump thread has been very much
    forgotten since then.

    [...]

    You can copy any of this email to anyone at all (or even post it), as all
    of this is 100% accurate. We can send you a PDF of the entire closed thread
    if you like. (But it's not very pleasant reading!)

    [...]
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  27. #119
    Senior Member Lord Sidious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by PurpleLama View Post
    Ok, Fred and Christian, explain yourselves.

    Man, oh man, gears a turnin'
    I hope you've got heavy duty oil in that gearbox Lamanugget.............
    Ní siocháin go saoirse

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  29. #120
    Retired Member Hungary
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    Quote Originally posted by Christian View Post
    I am not familiar with the "Vern" situation and don't plan on looking into it. I was referring to the situation with Maggie (see my link above) although the Vern situation sounded similar, but I don't know or care to.

    There may have problems with Vern and legitimate reasons to ban him, but just saying it is "right wing propaganda" would not be a valid one in my opinion. Your post above, Chris, is propaganda, just as mine in. They are attempts to influence people and move them away from their beliefs or at least challenge their current ones. What you call "propaganda" I would refer to as "challenging ideas". If I have the time and energy, I often welcome them as an opportunity to understand the world better and grow intellectually. They might educate me and lead me to new realizations, or I might wrestle with them and develop an even better understand about why my previous ideas were correct.

    If you say that you are (1) a liberal, free-thinking individual who advocates the open exchange of ideas, but also say that (2) you are for limiting or marginalizing the speech of people who are: (any of these)
    - right/left wing
    - "anti science"
    - "unhygenic"
    - "biased", "propagandists"
    - or any other simplistic label used to reduce other people's complex thoughts,

    then, your support for #2, completely contradicts statement #1.
    You don't seem to understand what propaganda is. It is in no way related to an open discussion or the exchange of ideas and that is precisely the problem with it.

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