Aragorn, thank you for your very lengthy detailed reply. But you could have saved yourself a lot of time, because many of the points you were making were not criticisms that I or Fred or anyone else I could see were actually levelling at you. I don't the anyone here was accusing you of 1) deleting posts 2) banning members 3) impropriety when putting Vern/Ainawa on a sabbatical. If you want to give yourself a pat on the back for not doing these things okay, but these are not the accusations being made here.Originally posted by Aragorn
I did however, accuse you of "threatening to marginalize someones speech", and that someone is Maggie. I am going to revise the wording on that again: you censored Maggie.
You don't have to ban someone from the forum, or delete their posts, or remove it to the "information promulgated by right wing freaks" section. All you have to do is threaten to do so.
Actually, you did silence her. She left the forum after your threat. You didn't delete her post or cancel her membership or even move the thread to the Hall of Garbage ideas. You just had to threaten to. And it worked. And just about any other intellectually curious, passionate person who wanted to engage in intelligent debate would have left to.I also said that it was very important to allow free speech about this,
and no pro-vaxxer posting on Avalon has ever been silenced in any way.
Why share your thoughts if someone is going to consign your words in the garbage bin area? It also sends out a message to a lot of other people who would want to engage in a debate about vaccines which is : "Why bother? Your words won't be deleted, just relegated to the sidecar freak show area." (a.k.a. the "Misinformation, Disinformation, Propaganda & Hoaxes" section). I am sure that there were probably others who wanted to say something that never did because they knew Aragorn would threaten to censor them.
Despite all your attempts to paint yourself as someone who doesn't censor free speech, you did, in fact, censor Maggie. And you've got a spiritually dead, uninteresting forum to show for it. There are certainly some friendly people here, exchanging social niceties and sharing links to music, but I just do see there are a lot of people finding any great worthwhile threads that would bring outsiders in. (Not that I have read them all and please feel free to prove me wrong.) As long as you are a moderator and until you find a way to put this behind you, you will have and deserve the reputation of a place with limited tolerance for free speech.
What a absolutely ludicrous claim to make. Yes, this claim may offend some autistic people, but many (or most) of the activists questioning the safety of the MMR vaccine are autistic or the parents of autistic children. Do you care about how your censorship deeply offends them because is does absolutely????? Free speech will always offend somebody, but stifling is should offend everyone who wants to get on the path of truth and intellectual inquiry.The claim that autism would be caused by vaccines ... is also highly insulting toward autistic people
Wow, sorry to hear you are so tired. Perhaps you are taking on a job here that isn't necessary ... to have the last word and "correct" everyone else's ideas.As it just so happens to be ─ and I am really tired of having to explain myself over and over again on account of this subject...
The claim that autism would be caused by vaccines has not only been scientifically disproven
I thought your job was to be a moderator, a facilitator of debate and discussion. But it seem you need to be the final word, the authority on everything. And since you are human and have limited energy and time and can't always respond to all the contrary ideas, research and information and have that last word on the subject you care about, the authority has to become an authoritarian by using you power as an administrator to relegate the speech of others into the dustbin. But of course, you don't have to let the ugly title of "censor" or "authoritarian" stick to you. You can just threaten to censor people. You can just threaten to, while claiming "but I never actually did censor anyone ... I am for free speech." Yet it has the same effect on others. And shuts them up. So if you always need to have the last word, now you can rest.
But it isn't just the admin/moderator over reach that is destroying the forum here, it is also the lack of action on some of the really childish, snivelling, vacuous, antisocial behaviors here. Here are just two examples from this very thread:
Wow, nothing rolls out the welcome like saying you aren't in the country club long enough to make judgement calls. Does this poster say this to everyone who comes here, or just to people he wants to alienate? What a great way not to engage in debate, which can be a tiring thing if you are brain dead but need to feel superior without actually having to defend your opinion.I'll have to correct you there, you simply haven't been a member long enough to make that judgement call.
And then there is the perverse misuse of the word "propaganda" here:
or this one, directed at me in one post:Vern has been sent on a little holiday for spreading right-wing propaganda
What don't I know about propaganda? I am quite familiar with the work of Edward Bernays, of how, historically, radio and then television have been to mobilize populations for war and other political purposes, of the history of Project Mockingbird. My uncle stared one of the best newspapers after World War II, the Rome Daily American which was later purchase by the CIA as part of Project Gladio, a foment violence between various political sectors in Italy. And I know a lot more about the history of propaganda. What gives this person the gall and temerity to tell me I don't know propaganda is?You don't seem to understand what propaganda is.
The word "propaganda" seems to have a completely different meaning on this forum. You redefine what others would call "free speech" which you find distasteful, but don't wish to engage with, as "propaganda" and then commence with the antisocial behaviors. "Oh, you can't have an opinion here." "Oh, you are right wing and must be wearing a red maga hat". This will pretty much wear people down and make the go away, long before you have to threaten to move their posts to the "freak show thread" area.
Such insidious conversation ending-behaviors are not tolerated at Project Avalon. They don't need to be censored - you just need to point out their bad behaviors and find a way to ask them to act like an adult. Is anyone doing that here? Not that I can see.
* * * * *
While people here consider Project Avalon "right wing", some on Avalon consider TOT to be "left wing". (While there is much talk of the "other forum" on TOT, I have only seen TOT mentioned twice on Avalon). I thought left wing might be a refreshing change and check out the forum. There are a lot of information-filled threads on Avalon about vaccines, COVID, and the government policies and media coverage of these issues here. But they are generally one sided, that being the antivax side. I thought, perhaps, coming here there might be some really good info on the pro-vax side of the fence. But, alas, not such data bank of information exists that I see. All I see is "Andrew Whitefield is a proven fraudster", "Robert Malone has an ax to grind", "Scientific studies show that MMR can not cause autism", "your dangerious unscientific information is killing people." That's it. It doesn't go any deeper than that. What if the brightest and best people on both forums had a debate on vaccines? I can tell you that people on Project Avalon would absolutely decimate TOT, not because TOT is on the right or wrong side of the issue, but because you have insulated yourself from intellectual challenges and information and locked your self in an intellectual void. You simply place simple little adjectives ideas on the words and people: "fraudster", "propaganda", "right wing" so that you can be dismissive and turn up you nose.
It is unfortunate. As long as you practice censorship here (and you absolutely do), as long as you focus on deprecating the "other" instead of engaging in intellectual debate, you are missing a great opportunity. I really hope someone can turn this forum around because a great opportunity is being missed.
and P.S., not saying you should respond to this thread, but I don't expect to be back to read your replies. Project Avalon may have it's problems, but it also is much more engaging, challenging and alive than this forum. Good luck!
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I, for one, would love to see some of those at PA stop by, take their shoes off, and sit a spell. I relish the opportunity to pit my wits against theirs. I'd love to see who could win the debate battle concerning who is interested in creating a 'better' society and who isn't.
“El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"
and thank you. halfway there)
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