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Thread: World War Three

  1. #166
    Super Moderator Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    I took BeastOfBologna's question as a personal allegation, and considering that he repeated his question in the next post, an allegation that had to be addressed with a certain urgency. This sort of situation then always prompts me to take a deep breath (or two) and explain myself in a logical and detailed way.

    A similar thing happened only about a week ago on the "Gracy has left Avalon" thread over at the other side of the pond, when someone who goes by the name Vangelo over there arrogantly gaslighted the other interlocutors into believing that I would actually be you in disguise. I responded to that allegation by stating that...



    • Several members there ─ including Chester ─ have seen me on video and therefore know what I look like, and what I sound like.


    • You yourself have (or have had) videos up on YouTube, in which people could see what you look like, and what you sound like.


    • My English is so good because I started teaching myself English ─ which is not an official language in Belgium ─ when I was only somewhere between 6 and 8 years old, resulting in my ability to partake in normal everyday conversations in English ─ and with an authentic Oxford pronunciation ─ by the time I was 12, which itself was two years before we started getting English classes at school.

      And when we then did, the only English words my contemporaries understood were "yes", "no", "boy", "girl, and "sex", while I in turn was chatting with the teacher about our home, using simple present tense, present continuous tense, simple past tense, and so on. My English teacher ─ rest his soul; he died of cancer before he was even 40 ─ was flabbergasted.

      I no longer have an Oxford pronunciation now, of course. American movies, TV series and music had all but turned that into North American English by the time I was in my mid-to-late twenties, and that is still what I sound like today.



    I actually felt like punching Vangelo in the face over his unadulterated arrogance, but considering the prohibitive nature of our respective geographical circumstances, explaining myself seemed like the better option.
    It's a sign of the times we're in. Everything's black and white, and no nuance. It's not even so much Left and Right, it's more Us and Them.

    In our current example, no nuance is allowed when it comes to the evil commies. Looking at the situation through Putin's eyes means you're defending him, and of course that's just because you hate America, thus because you obviously hate America, then you must hate me too.

    Your exchange with Vangelo is a bit different, but right along the same lines. Lots of "if/then - either/or".

    I remember an early on exchange with a Q follower over yonder next door. I was suggesting that amidst all the rah rah flag waving, it might be a good idea to consider the harm much of U.S. foreign policy inflicts on others around the world. Response? "Why do you hate your country so much?"

    Or on the Trump thing. Didn't matter how often I expressed how little I care for Joe Biden either, because questioning or criticizing Trump automatically meant that I'm a far Left commie radical. End of story.

    So this is the binary way of seeing our world that's getting on my nerves these days. Bringing us back to topic, IMO the greatest threat for a major conflict is this type of thinking. Basically "if you're not with me, then you're against me". Or "either you're with us, or you're with them".
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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  3. #167
    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    It's a sign of the times we're in. Everything's black and white, and no nuance. It's not even so much Left and Right, it's more Us and Them.

    In our current example, no nuance is allowed when it comes to the evil commies. Looking at the situation through Putin's eyes means you're defending him, and of course that's just because you hate America, thus because you obviously hate America, then you must hate me too.

    Your exchange with Vangelo is a bit different, but right along the same lines. Lots of "if/then - either/or".

    I remember an early on exchange with a Q follower over yonder next door. I was suggesting that amidst all the rah rah flag waving, it might be a good idea to consider the harm much of U.S. foreign policy inflicts on others around the world. Response? "Why do you hate your country so much?"

    Or on the Trump thing. Didn't matter how often I expressed how little I care for Joe Biden either, because questioning or criticizing Trump automatically meant that I'm a far Left commie radical. End of story.

    So this is the binary way of seeing our world that's getting on my nerves these days. Bringing us back to topic, IMO the greatest threat for a major conflict is this type of thinking. Basically "if you're not with me, then you're against me". Or "either you're with us, or you're with them".
    You hit the nail on the head. However, this is not a new phenomenon. I already experienced this on Usenet many years ago. I don't frequent any political discussion groups ─ they are all technical discussion groups to do with GNU/Linux or UNIX in general ─ but on occasion, some right-wing (and invariably US American) bigot will post something political there. And if I then respond to it ─ which I know I shouldn't ─ then I am called "a Euro-commie". But then again, some of those people are so far to the right of the political spectrum that even Genghis Khan would have appeared a socialist in their eyes.

    It is indeed a matter of blind radicalization, akin to football/soccer hooliganism. "Our club is the best, the elite, and everyone else is a <fill in a random expletive here>." And their club isn't even theirs, because they're just fans, not players.

    One could posit that it's some kind of mental and intellectual regression, falling back onto some primeval tribal instincts. And there is some scientific evidence to support that too ─ both physiological/neurological and psychological. But I think there's a lot more involved than just that. I think society in and of itself is feeding into this tribalism, not in the very least because of the incompetence of the average politician and their disconnectedness from the people they are supposed to represent (or "lead"). And then there are the social media influencers ─ primarily via video hosting platforms such as YouTube. Before the advent of social media, newspaper and magazine columnists were already doing the same thing, even.

    But it runs deeper still, and it ties in with the reason why we are now looking at a whole generation of daycare-raised kids who don't have any values and who know no respect, namely the fact that the financial-economically driven society model breeds opportunists and rewards arrogance and sociopathy. The whole western society model is very, very sick to the core.

    But at the same time, the same kind of "us versus them" mentality is also found in the Middle East and in Africa ─ and specifically, among fanatic Islamist cultures, from Wahhabi Islam in Saudi-Arabia over to terrorist groups like ISIS, Al Qaeda and Boko Haram, where the "them" of the equation are of course the infidels. Hell, it even already existed among the ancient Jews, and it was certainly also present during the Roman-Catholic domination of the western world.

    I don't know, maybe it's even a spiritual thing ─ some kind of global dumbing-down, as a kind of prelude to humanity's self-inflicted extinction, ordained by something from beyond our reality. At this point I don't even know what to make of it anymore, so anything's possible. I can only observe what I see in the (larger) world around me, and it's upsetting.

    And it's everywhere. That's what boggles the mind. There seem to be no cultural or geographical boundaries. As if the whole world has simply decided to go insane. Which it probably has.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  5. #168
    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    Sometimes when a person asks a stupid question they get called a 'stupid son of a bitch'.

    And sometimes, the man at the adult table apologizes to the silly boy who's feelings got hurt.


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  7. #169
    Senior Member Hungary
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    Aragorn, but you are a euro-commie, you said so yourself...



    As to where division comes from, simples: That's how they rule us. Divide and Conquer.

    Who They are is another matter, won't speculate about that but we all have some idea in our heart of hearts, I feel.

    BTW our beloved, dear leader, unser Kleine Führer Viktor Orbán is heading to Moscow to meet unser Grosse Führer Vlad the Impaler, after which he will be a keynote speaker in the US for the Republican National Convention. I kid you not. Apparently, he's best buddies with Tucker Carlson now, who was here (again) to shoot an anti-Soros documentary and to praise (again) our dear Führer's anti-immigration (or in other words, anti dark-skinned foreigner) and natalist (white babies rule) policies.

    I feel like some mysterious force had plucked Hungary from the heart of Europe and dropped it somewhere between Kentucky and Alabama. We might as well be another red state at this point...

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  9. #170
    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    Tucker wants to run for office. Dear God help us all...

    I agree with Aragorn about the day care and latch key kids. Also classrooms have gotten more and more overloaded during my lifetime. Which does no one any good.

    When my son was growing up moms (and dads) would have group play dates. The kids would play and the adults would socialize. But I didn't do those because the adults were barely paying attention to the kids. They just wanted their own 'playdate'.

    Meanwhile the kids are putting pencils in each other's eyes....

    I exaggerate slightly.


    I found my son's experience in Montessori education to be very nurturing while also encouraging independence in terms of learning. Older kids would work with younger ones. Children would manage their time. Works would build on themselves.

    Maria's philosophy was "Peaceful Children, Peaceful World."

    I believe a lot more of this sort of education would do wonders for humanity.


    We know that leaders divide us. I say 'we' because in this day and age there's really no excuse for not knowing that. Unless a person is very insulated from the world this is obvious.

    So the question is, why in the world are people knowingly allowing themselves to be manipulated. Why in the world are people allowing themselves to take up arms against their fellow countrymen? Why are they allowing themselves to be played?

    There really isn't an excuse for ignorance this time around. We're not peasantry.

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  11. #171
    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    Aragorn, but you are a euro-commie, you said so yourself...

    When I was a teenager, yes. But that was many, many moons ago.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  13. #172
    Senior Member Chuckie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    When it comes to the potential of world war 3 breaking out, Russia vs Ukraine has nothing on BOB vs Fred...
    lol, yeah, unfortunately, Putin vs. Sleepy Joe is not a makeable one-to-one analogy.
    “To seek self-knowledge is to embark on a journey which ... will always be incomplete" - courtesy of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

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  15. #173
    Senior Member Chuckie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    You hit the nail on the head. However, this is not a new phenomenon. I already experienced this on Usenet many years ago. I don't frequent any political discussion groups ─ they are all technical discussion groups to do with GNU/Linux or UNIX in general ─ but on occasion, some right-wing (and invariably US American) bigot will post something political there. And if I then respond to it ─ which I know I shouldn't ─ then I am called "a Euro-commie". But then again, some of those people are so far to the right of the political spectrum that even Genghis Khan would have appeared a socialist in their eyes.

    It is indeed a matter of blind radicalization, akin to football/soccer hooliganism. "Our club is the best, the elite, and everyone else is a <fill in a random expletive here>." And their club isn't even theirs, because they're just fans, not players.

    One could posit that it's some kind of mental and intellectual regression, falling back onto some primeval tribal instincts. And there is some scientific evidence to support that too ─ both physiological/neurological and psychological. But I think there's a lot more involved than just that. I think society in and of itself is feeding into this tribalism, not in the very least because of the incompetence of the average politician and their disconnectedness from the people they are supposed to represent (or "lead"). And then there are the social media influencers ─ primarily via video hosting platforms such as YouTube. Before the advent of social media, newspaper and magazine columnists were already doing the same thing, even.

    But it runs deeper still, and it ties in with the reason why we are now looking at a whole generation of daycare-raised kids who don't have any values and who know no respect, namely the fact that the financial-economically driven society model breeds opportunists and rewards arrogance and sociopathy. The whole western society model is very, very sick to the core.

    But at the same time, the same kind of "us versus them" mentality is also found in the Middle East and in Africa ─ and specifically, among fanatic Islamist cultures, from Wahhabi Islam in Saudi-Arabia over to terrorist groups like ISIS, Al Qaeda and Boko Haram, where the "them" of the equation are of course the infidels. Hell, it even already existed among the ancient Jews, and it was certainly also present during the Roman-Catholic domination of the western world.

    I don't know, maybe it's even a spiritual thing ─ some kind of global dumbing-down, as a kind of prelude to humanity's self-inflicted extinction, ordained by something from beyond our reality. At this point I don't even know what to make of it anymore, so anything's possible. I can only observe what I see in the (larger) world around me, and it's upsetting.

    And it's everywhere. That's what boggles the mind. There seem to be no cultural or geographical boundaries. As if the whole world has simply decided to go insane. Which it probably has.
    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    Sometimes when a person asks a stupid question they get called a 'stupid son of a bitch'.

    And sometimes, the man at the adult table apologizes to the silly boy who's feelings got hurt.

    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    Tucker wants to run for office. Dear God help us all...

    I agree with Aragorn about the day care and latch key kids. Also classrooms have gotten more and more overloaded during my lifetime. Which does no one any good.

    When my son was growing up moms (and dads) would have group play dates. The kids would play and the adults would socialize. But I didn't do those because the adults were barely paying attention to the kids. They just wanted their own 'playdate'.

    Meanwhile the kids are putting pencils in each other's eyes....

    I exaggerate slightly.


    I found my son's experience in Montessori education to be very nurturing while also encouraging independence in terms of learning. Older kids would work with younger ones. Children would manage their time. Works would build on themselves.

    Maria's philosophy was "Peaceful Children, Peaceful World."

    I believe a lot more of this sort of education would do wonders for humanity.


    We know that leaders divide us. I say 'we' because in this day and age there's really no excuse for not knowing that. Unless a person is very insulated from the world this is obvious.

    So the question is, why in the world are people knowingly allowing themselves to be manipulated. Why in the world are people allowing themselves to take up arms against their fellow countrymen? Why are they allowing themselves to be played?

    There really isn't an excuse for ignorance this time around. We're not peasantry.
    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    When I was a teenager, yes. But that was many, many moons ago.
    <sigh> I agree with all of it... It still resolves to the parent/child relationship. If the parent is self-aware then there is at least the opportunity to pass that on to offspring. If families aren't functional, even from the most fundamental characteristic which is nurturing (fills the well of love and resilience) then there is little hope that the product of such will be a positive force to the world around them. I watched a short clip on an NDE last night and the message that the person was given seems trite in its nature but is it? "The only thing that matters is love". If a person is not capable of spiritual generosity and love, which should be concomitant within the spirit, then what else can we expect. It is the nature of the nurture and given that most people regardless of how enlightened they believe themselves just simply don't get it.

    And as a plethora of research has shown the less intelligent or even the less educated someone is the less likely they are to develop a formally defined personality to a successful degree. It is an intergenerational failure that has propagated since homo saps first emerged. This is the fundamental reason I believe that we have to evolve social consciousness based on empathy and sympathetic compassion. Those lacking, we are all walking and talking psychopaths.
    “To seek self-knowledge is to embark on a journey which ... will always be incomplete" - courtesy of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

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  17. #174
    Senior Member Chuckie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    I wished the interviewer would have asked Mr. We'll kick everybody's ass if he could explain why 'liberating Ukraine' was necessary I would truly have been satisfied to hear that answer... Forking journalists. 👀
    “To seek self-knowledge is to embark on a journey which ... will always be incomplete" - courtesy of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

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  19. #175
    Senior Member Hungary
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    The latest from US intelligence suggests an invasion of the Ukraine in February is a near certainty. Two factors seem to be at play as to the exact timing. One, like I mentioned, is the Winter Olympics in Beijing, where Putin might either choose to act when the world is distracted by the opening ceremony, or like during the 2014 Sochi Olympics, wait until its over so as not to upset China.

    This to me, is a minor factor.

    The big one seems to be weather. Since this is a ground invasion that will take place mostly over farmland and fields, the Russian army has to wait until the ground is sufficiently frozen to allow for the moving of heavy equipment.

    Meanwhile, the building up of Russian forces on the Russian and Belorussian side of the border is progressing. The reported number of troops has risen from 100.000 to 130.000 which is probably close to the numbers needed for a successful invasion, though perhaps not quite enough to take and keep the whole of Ukraine.

    I still think a lightning strike to take Kiev and install a puppet government is the most likely scenario. This should happen from the North, crossing the Belarussian border. Another strike is expected in the Southeast, from Donbass, all the way to Crimea, to take the Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine and establish a corridor to Crimea.

    What is likely to happen, is that the Southeast will be officially annexed by Russia after a referendum and the rest, including Kyiv will continue on nominally independent, but as a Russian puppet, much like Belarus.

    The important question is what will happen with gas. I have no idea actually, but it seems all those juicy contracts to supply Europe with gas will have to be cancelled. There is no obvious alternative to replace them, especially since Germany shut down its remaining Nuclear Reactors 28 days ago.

    I guess we might all freeze over here...

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    Senior Member Lord Sidious's Avatar
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    Us intelligence.
    Almost as bad as quoting MI5
    Ní siocháin go saoirse

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    Quote Originally posted by Lord Sidious View Post
    Us intelligence.
    Almost as bad as quoting MI5
    Who would you rather trust on this issue? Russia Today? Sputnik News?

    I happen to think US and UK intelligence reports on what is happening on the ground in Ukraine have been pretty decent and usually turned out to be reasonably accurate.

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  25. #178
    Super Moderator Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    What's the basis for trusting U.S. Intelligence as a reliable source of information Chris?
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    Senior Member Chuckie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    Who would you rather trust on this issue? Russia Today? Sputnik News?

    I happen to think US and UK intelligence reports on what is happening on the ground in Ukraine have been pretty decent and usually turned out to be reasonably accurate.
    U.S. intelligence gets input from other agencies around the world and so if there is mutual corroboration then the basis exists for reality's sake. Over time, the CIA has evolved much like Christians no longer get thrown to the Lions, we play NFL football instead, I suppose it could be argued that one is not much more human(e) than the other but that's a tale for another day.

    The CIA has been exposed decades ago to effecting wholly immoral schemes much to the chagrin of decent Americans. And for whatever that might be worth in an ostensible and responsible Democracy, the CIA has made palpable changes to adhere more closely to international law. Of course, the American puppet leader is a force for better or worse depending on the character of that particular individual and he/she ultimately has the wherewithal to declare good or bad.

    People talk about the intrusiveness of cyber ware and how it leaves very little room to personally groove. Well, those eyeballs work in both directions, not to mention the third eye and eyeball in the back of the head that some people possess. My instincts tell me that the American intelligence community can be trusted slightly farther than they can be smelt/smelled. And as far as something exceeds the limits of coups or common propaganda, such as a World War, the essence of any propaganda will be honest, for the sake of playing game theory with a predictive outcome.
    “To seek self-knowledge is to embark on a journey which ... will always be incomplete" - courtesy of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

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  29. #180
    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    My understanding is that US intelligence is still stovepiped and territorial. There are many ways to determine what's going on. Watch movements, listen to 'chatter', compare official statements, watch what the private sectors are doing, watch where money is flowing.

    As regular folks we can see a lot even though we can't see everything due to the amount of information we can obtain. Assuming we actually use logic and analysis as opposed to emotions and confirmation bias.

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