Of course you are, and that shows you have a heart. So here's the paradox in being both anti war, but also using these Western propaganda bits such as the one above to inform your official stance on this one. The suffering of this war could have been stopped months ago, and it could be stopped today, if the leader of Ukraine were willing to cut his losses as has been done throughout history when being on the losing end of the stick, come to the negotiating table, and sue for peace.
Instead, he's going to do what our war hawk politician Linday Graham said what he will do, and that's "fight to the last person". Therefore this is not going to stop, the suffering we see now will be nothing compared to what's coming when the ground freezes over, and well meaning people will be unconsciously cheering this carnage on under the spell of manufactured consent.
The head US military guy here, known as the Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff, just recently leaked to the New York Times the following:
Top General Urges Diplomacy in Ukraine While Biden Advisors Resist
Gen. Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, has made the case that the Ukranians should try to cement their gains at the bargaining table.
It's tucked away behind a pay wall so only the headline can be glimpsed, he took it back almost immediately and is now being a good boy again, and nobody else covered it (verboten territory). Now why do you suppose he did that in the first place? Because even though his position requires him to be a yes man and spout the company line, he's still a knowledged military man who can see what's coming. Russia's military strategy doesn't cling to pieces of land won on the battlefield, to them, land is only useful when it can aid in your overall goal, if it ceases to be useful, they have no problem giving it up to save that piece of their army for future endeavors.
"The Narrative" is being currently dialed up to a fevered pitch that the evil Russkies are on the run, our Ukranians heroes should keep following them all the way back to where they came from and more, but that's a trap. This is the calm before the storm, the Russians are patiently integrating those new 300,000 plus, and some time this winter we're going to see real war. Again, Milley knows this, and that's what he was alluding to.
Basically "take what gains you have, cut your losses, and end this thing because before holy hell is released on you".
I don't want to see that happen, it's been bad enough already. These zombified repeaters from the BBC and such may seem to genuinely care about the fate of Ukraine, but they're really only helping fuel this coming fight to the last Ukranian. Wars need the blessings of the people, it's their job to get it, and to keep it.
Of course you are, and that shows you have a heart. So here's the paradox in being both anti war, but also using these Western propaganda bits such as the one above to inform your official stance on this one. The suffering of this war could have been stopped months ago, and it could be stopped today, if the leader of Ukraine were willing to cut his losses as has been done throughout history when being on the losing end of the stick, come to the negotiating table, and sue for peace.
Of course I think that a peace deal would be ideal, but what do you think that Ukraine should agree to do? Should they give Crimea to Putin, what about any other places? What will be enough for Putin? Is Ukraine the winning side because Russians have been retreating or is it just a temporary "win"? Who gets to make the terms for the peace deal? The problem is that Zelensky doesn't seem to want to deal with Putin or would want to see him charged in court, which of course won't happen. So what would be a fair deal for both parties and can such even be achieved in this political climate? If you ask me, then I don't see it happening unless either one leader gets replaced.
"The more I see, the less I know for sure." ~ John Lennon
Of course I think that a peace deal would be ideal, but what do you think that Ukraine should agree to do? Should they give Crimea to Putin, what about any other places?
Well of course Russia already has Crimea, Putin's looking for Zelensky to recognize it as such. You know, it wasn't like a purse snatching the way our repeaters love to present it as such, Crimea was Russian since the 1700's, and when Kruschev up and gifted it to Ukraine, no one ever dreamed the Soviet Union would ever fall with Ukraine becoming its own independent country. Putin saw the handwriting on the wall with the US led neo Nazi coup in 2014, and in his eyes he took it back for safe keeping, like Eastern Ukraine it's dominant Russian speaking and Russian sympathizing people.
Originally posted by Wind
what about any other places? What will be enough for Putin?
There's this pervasive meme in the West that Putin's motives are similar to Hitler taking back The Sudetenland, but if you listen to what he's saying (which is highly discouraged), that's not at all what this is about. For him, this is about finally being forced to deal with an exestential threat to his country. Here is the question to ask about this: Putin's been around for a while now, why did Russia annex Crimea only once 2014 rolled around?
Originally posted by Wind
Is Ukraine the winning side because Russians have been retreating or is it just a temporary "win"?
When looked at from a Russian perspective, Putin has taken tremendous pressure and criticism from his right as to why he's basically just bullshitting around, and didn't deal a crushing blow straight off the bat. There's every indication that he never dreamed the West would swoop in and literally flood Ukraine with top of the line weapons and money, he thought he could just set matters straight quickly, and with as little damage as was possible for such an operation.
That's why it was called a special military operation and not all out war. The question maybe backing that one up is why didn't Russia destroy all this infrastructure when they first came in? Like the United States does, "shock and awe".
So this goes back to my post a few hours ago, with Gen. Milley letting slip out that Zelensky may just use this as a good time to be happy with his recent gains and see if the negotiating table is still available. Once it became stunningly clear to Putin what he was really up against, that operation wasn't going to cut it, and they were forced to regroup, get a new field commander, and man up for all out war. When the ground is frozen and the Russians feel they're ready, that's when the full military might of a great power is going to be on display. It ain't gonna be pretty, and it won't be over until all Ukranian forces are thoroughly defeated on the battlefield, and a sizeable part of that country lays in ruin.
The terms of surrender would then be dictated, not negotiated.
Originally posted by Wind
Who gets to make the terms for the peace deal? The problem is that Zelensky doesn't seem to want to deal with Putin or would want to see him charged in court, which of course won't happen.
Well normally it would be the negotiations between the two leaders, but after what we saw back in the March/April timeframe, Boris Johnson coming in telling Zelensky the peace deal that had just been negotiated was off the table. No negotiations we see this through! So I don't know exactly, Zelensky with his well trained and well fortified army that the US spent years gearing up to fight Russia, would still already be dust if it weren't for his Western masters swooping in to save the day so he can go around doing his chest thumping.
Originally posted by Wind
So what would be a fair deal for both parties and can such even be achieved in this political climate?
So Putin's initial demands were initially:
* Recognize Crimea
* Ukraine is to be a neutral country
* Independence for separatist-controlled Luhansk and Donetsk
* De-Nazification
Now in this climate? Putin said a ways back the further this thing drags on, the more unpalatable the demands will be. He's already made parts of Eastern Ukraine part of Russia, that's off the table fo sho.
Is there evidence for this? Like Putin was going to "release Ukraine from neo-nazis"? That at least was propaganda from Kremlin.
How come a jewish president could be supporting some nazi forces? Something doesn't make sense here to me.
I don't doubt that Ukraine has many unpleasant groups working on it's side too, but guess what? There are neo-nazis in Russia too.
To me it seemed like a legitimate uprising against a corrupt president. Also the "special operation" was just really the start of a war with perhaps limited resources and preparation, but it certainly didn't go as Putin planned, because either his generals lied to him or he expected much less resistance. The US training and gear combined with the battle-hardened people who had the will to fight back gave his troops an ass-whooping. Had Putin tried invade Ukraine back in 2014, he could have possibly taken the whole country with relatively little effort. I don't know why he didn't do it then, but I guess that wasn't his goal at the time and things changed after that.
I wonder if it's going to be a cold winter. I suppose next year we will see how things will go with the war as now there is no end in sight.
I guess we can agree that this is a proxy war and I'm not in favor of either empire, former Soviet Union or US empire.
This is already a significant win for NATO because they got us meaning Finland and Sweden to join NATO and that probably will happen next year if things go according to their plans. They would also want Ukraine, but now that's a big problem now isn't it? I suppose Crimea is lost for good and Russia gets to keep it, but at the meantime Putin already is responsible for things which should ensure him a seat in the International Court so he can answer for his crimes. There's no need to list all the crimes he has also committed against his own people too. He of course won't answer there, but he will answer to his Creator for what he has done eventually.
The same goes for all of the rest too, all those neocons and warhawks you have mentioned.
I wouldn't be surprised if they're psychopaths, which Putin is too of course.
When you have "leaders" like that, it turns the world into a hellscape.
They're playing with fire now, we can just hope it won't expand.
I say give peace a chance. How hard can it be?
Last edited by Wind, 20th November 2022 at 00:06.
"The more I see, the less I know for sure." ~ John Lennon
In order to have some understanding of 2022, some understanding 2014 is required; to understand 2014, 2008 and the Georgia issue needs to be looked at, but first things first because this is complicated. In 2014 few opposition voices to "The Narrative" were allowed on mainstream media, today, none, there is only one side of this story.
This from 8 years ago was a very informative 22 minutes that allowed both sides of this story to be heard. I again invite any interested parties to take a 22 minute dive back down the memory hole to see for yourself. This whole thing didn't just blow up out of the blue on Feb. 24 of this year:
So with things starting to look bleak as the core of winter settles in, and alliances beginning to fray, the fever is showing signs of breaking. IMO Ukraine would do well to recognize their position as not a friend being offered a leg up, but a bludgeoning tool to be abandoned at the end its useful shelf life, and somehow find the negotiating table while there's still something to negotiate with.
Just ask the Kurds:
THE U.S. IS NOW BETRAYING THE KURDS FOR THE EIGHTH TIME
Nothing in this world is certain except death, taxes, and America betraying the Kurds.
snip...The U.S. has now betrayed the Kurds a minimum of eight times over the past 100 years. The reasons for this are straightforward.
The Kurds are an ethnic group of about 40 million people centered at the intersection of Turkey, Syria, Iran, and Iraq. Many naturally want their own state. The four countries in which they live naturally do not want that to happen.
On the one hand, the Kurds are a perfect tool for U.S. foreign policy. We can arm the Kurds in whichever of these countries is currently our enemy, whether to make trouble for that country’s government or to accomplish various other objectives. On the other hand, we don’t want the Kurds we’re utilizing to ever get too powerful. If that happened, the other Kurds — i.e., the ones living just across the border in whichever of these countries are currently our allies — might get ideas about freedom and independence. snip...
One thing we're likely to see now is as the U.S. and her E.U. vassal states see their attempt at weaponizing oil fail, the howling will queue up right on schedule decrying Russia not accepting a $60 per barrel price cap on their oil, and begin moving it to other more friendly markets, as using oil as a weapon.
The other thing, and the far bigger deal, is how moves like this by the West continue to ratchet up the chances of direct confrontations with Russia. No more of this proxy shit. So consider this: Not liking one bit seeing this latest attempt at weakening the competition fail, as the oil begins the process of moving to other markets, strange things start happening to the Russian oil tankers. You know, for example one or two of them suddenly going boom, just like a certain pipeline to Germany that we're supposed to have collectively already lost down "The Memory Hole".
So then what? Is Putin just supposed to take it that his tankers are being sabotaged, while the West tells the world he's blowing up his own stuff again in order to reaffirm to all how capable he is of doing so?
I'm not saying it has to be so overt again (but who knows), just that it could be any number of reasons that the new program keeps having mysterious monkey wrenches thrown into the works. Bottom line. Stopping another country from exporting their oil is a direct act of war, as was the blown up pipeline, how many of these can stack up before things really go boom?
You keep backing that rat into a corner, eventually...
Or hell, maybe that's just what a certain percentage of these neocons would love to see. "More Russian aggression, time to teach them a lesson they'll never forget! Release the next 'Two Minutes of Hate' installment in preparation".
Originally posted by Wind
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks