I'm starting to think that people fail to grasp nuance these days. Russia has brought misery and so has USA.
That's apples and oranges there brother. The US pulled off a coup on Russia's southern doorstep, rapidly built up a Nazi riddled army there for the sole purpose of taking on Russia, that same military ignited a civil war by shelling for 8 years areas of the Donbass region that didn't want to go along with this killing 14,000 people in the process, and all the while the US and NATO essentially told Putin to go fuck himself with his security concerns.
There comes a certain point where one can either be compelled to come out swinging, or just keep sitting there as an attack ensues. One doesn't need consider Putin a "good guy", in order to see and understand the position he had been forced into. Under twisted Western logic, Tommy was the "bad guy aggressor", the Gatlin Boys the "good guys" in this old Kenny Rogers classic:
I see that Ukraine is just a pawn in the chessboard,
Then you should also see what Ukraine had been groomed to be, and groomed to do.
Originally posted by Wind
Shouldn't the people have anything to say about being invaded? It's going to cause a reaction naturally.
The people have no say in any of this. A responsible small power government, sharing a border with a great power, does everything within its power to not piss off that great power. The Ukraine government did the exact opposite of that, to the point of bitch slapping that great power neighbor, not a good idea. Although there is that superior Nazi element baked into all of this, so...
But even then, this was called a "Special Military Operation" for a reason. Putin never had any aims of going to all out war with his Slavic brethren, not with less than 200,000 men; the aim was to scare the bejesus out of Kiev to get some cooperation, same as in Georgia, and that was it let's call it a day. With the US and NATO pushing all the chips to the middle of the table, Putin's choice was then to either retreat in the face of an existential threat, or go all in himself.
As usual, this all could have been avoided, Ukraine could have lost a little territory but remained a viable nation. Now? We're very likely witnessing the death of a nation, and the West, the ones Ukraine thought were their friends, will abandon them like a cheap used up whore.
On to Taiwan, if it takes the death of that nation as well to set the Chinese back a bit, well, it sucks to be them says the neocons.
They'll be no neocon tears for anyone in this lunacy. So long as they themselves don't get so much as a scratch, the scope of death and destruction is irrelevant. Russia isn't run by neocons, that's another big difference. That they only go to war when they have to is another.
The people have no say in any of this. A responsible small power government, sharing a border with a great power, does everything within its power to not piss off that great power. The Ukraine government did the exact opposite of that, to the point of bitch slapping that great power neighbor, not a good idea. Although there is that superior Nazi element baked into all of this, so...
And let's not forget that the current Ukrainian government came to power after a western-backed coup, in which the democratically elected (but pro-Russian) president Viktor Yanukovych was ousted. So much for the legitimacy of Volodomir Zelenskyy and his ragtag team of moderates and Nazis.
Originally posted by Fred Steeves
As usual, this all could have been avoided, Ukraine could have lost a little territory but remained a viable nation. Now? We're very likely witnessing the death of a nation, and the West, the ones Ukraine thought were their friends, will abandon them like a cheap used up whore.
That's exactly what I myself am expecting the outcome to be as well, if Putin loses this war. And if he doesn't, then there'll be nothing left of Ukraine anyway. "Aww, such a shame. Now let's go and liberate Taiwan from their dirty communist overlords in Beijing, now that we still have some ammunition left."
So it would be acceptable that Ukraine fell under the invading cruel oppressor and then what?
Shouldn't the people have anything to say about being invaded? It's going to cause a reaction naturally.
I see that Ukraine is just a pawn in the chessboard, but it doesn't mean Putin is a good guy. He's not.
I'm starting to think that people fail to grasp nuance these days. Russia has brought misery and so has USA.
See?
All of this is feelings again.
There's a time and place for that, this isn't it.
What about the people that the Ukrainian government shelled for 8 years before this?
Do they count?
Read the full history of Russia as it relates to Ukraine. The story began a long time ago...Putin's fantasy is to resurrect past glory, and "Make Russia Great Again".
So the U.S. engineers a coup for kicks? There are no entirely innocent players but one side wants to liberate a people with some side benefits, and the other side wants to subjugate a people with all the benefits. How is that so hard to recognize?
The plain truth is Ukraine created its own internal civil strife. Some saw Nazis as liberators from the former Soviet Union, some saw the Nazis as barbaric madmen (which they were). Every Ukrainian hated the Soviet Union for its barbarism against them. So you see all the outside players are just capitalizing on the internal political insanity, but does the U.S. wholesale eliminate its own people and those around them? Let's forget the sins of the pre-20th century for just a moment, they count but not in an East-West context.
This is the history of the world.
Which word is different than the others:
autocracy, ultranationalism, totalitarianism, authoritarianism, communism, Nazism, democracy.
Most serious historians would put the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany at the pinnacle of human depravity and rightly so.
Envision the West without Europe and the United States (not much left but in any case) and leave the world to Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, and Syria and what do you get? Hmm, I would call it a New Word Order.
Consider Woo Woo II: One of the odd things about it was that the gene of depravity originating in the Caucasus region was everpresent as it will always rear its ugly head until extinct. Complete contempt for its fellow humans, no low is low enough. The defining characteristics of the Russian political model are to lie, cheat, steal, and kill. Putin is the personification of that.
The Soviet Union changed sides when they saw which way the winds were blowing. I ask, does that sound like the epitome of morality and integrity? Is Putin any different? What values does Zelensky manifest and ask yourself honestly if is he good or bad?
Last edited by Emil El Zapato, 20th February 2023 at 11:38.
Read the full history of Russia as it relates to Ukraine. The story began a long time ago...Putin's fantasy is to resurrect past glory, and "Make Russia Great Again".
So the U.S. engineers a coup for kicks? There are no entirely innocent players but one side wants to liberate a people with some side benefits, and the other side wants to subjugate a people with all the benefits. How is that so hard to recognize?
The plain truth is Ukraine created its own internal civil strife. Some saw Nazis as liberators from the former Soviet Union, some saw the Nazis as barbaric madmen (which they were). Every Ukrainian hated the Soviet Union for its barbarism against them. So you see all the outside players are just capitalizing on the internal political insanity, but does the U.S. wholesale eliminate its own people and those around them? Let's forget the sins of the pre-20th century for just a moment, they count but not in an East-West context.
This is the history of the world.
Which word is different than the others:
autocracy, ultranationalism, totalitarianism, authoritarianism, communism, Nazism, democracy.
Most serious historians would put the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany at the pinnacle of human depravity and rightly so.
Envision the West without Europe and the United States (not much left but in any case) and leave the world to Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, and Syria and what do you get? Hmm, I would call it a New Word Order.
Consider Woo Woo II: One of the odd things about it was that the gene of depravity originating in the Caucasus region was everpresent as it will always rear its ugly head until extinct. Complete contempt for its fellow humans, no low is low enough. The defining characteristics of the Russian political model are to lie, cheat, steal, and kill. Putin is the personification of that.
The Soviet Union changed sides when they saw which way the winds were blowing. I ask, does that sound like the epitome of morality and integrity? Is Putin any different? What values does Zelensky manifest and ask yourself honestly if is he good or bad?
To me it has been frustrating to see all this madness and bloodshed happening.
Many people have died and will continue to die. Thanks to some "leaders" and their policies.
I can't believe this has been going on for so long, but it's the history of humanity in a nutshell.
I don't really see you looking into trying to understand what's really going on here, much beyond the headlines anyway. I see emotion, frustration, horror and all that (which is well deserved),but not so much objective investigation, digging, or even giving that side of it a serious listen.
Judging from the artwork, along with the main body of material, you're content that the overall official narrative is not all that far off, and is going to basically remain your default position.
By no means am I writing this in an accusing manner, just checking to see how correct my observations are. I don't think I've seen the needle move much at all as the months continue to roll by. Pretty static.
Judging from the artwork, along with the main body of material, you're content that the overall official narrative is not all that far off, and is going to basically remain your default position.
By no means am I writing this in an accusing manner, just checking to see how correct my observations are. I don't think I've seen the needle move much at all as the months continue to roll by. Pretty static.
What comes through is......it's all Putin's fault.
Nuance is absent.
"To learn who rules over you simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" -- Voltaire
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."-- Eleanor Roosevelt
"Misery loves company. Wisdom has to look for it." -- Anonymous
What comes through is......it's all Putin's fault.
Nuance is absent.
I'm trying to decide if I believe that or not. I would say no, that is the equivalent of lumbering from one side of the scale to the other. It is not all his fault. When I was married and coming to the end of it, my ex accused me of abuse, not legally or on a divorce decree, but to her family. One of her legal arguments for divorce included the fact that I never barbecued in the back yard. One of the things I did finally realize is that if a woman feels that she is being abused, well then, in her mind she is being abused and that constitutes a form of abuse based on her perception.
But does that make me an abuser? She drove me over the edge with her emotional imbalances and her abusive treatment of the people around her including my former stepdaughter and our daughter. Yes, I threatened to kill her at one point but the fact of the matter is, I have never struck a woman and never intended to or wanted to but I did have fantasies of murder. Does that make me guilty as charged by her? The first week of our marriage she called me at work, frightened, subdued and nearly breathless as she told me someone was trying to break into our apartment. It was the normal clean up crew. Later, I believe she set a fire to a party banner that I had placed on the patio because she felt cheated of attention.
So is Putin fully responsible? Hardly but hardly is he innocent of his actions notwithstanding the mental stability of the person in question.
I don't really see you looking into trying to understand what's really going on here, much beyond the headlines anyway. I see emotion, frustration, horror and all that (which is well deserved), but not so much objective investigation, digging, or even giving that side of it a serious listen.
Well you don't indeed see how much I do look at things. I don't buy only the msm narrative, isn't that clear yet?
Originally posted by modwiz
What comes through is......it's all Putin's fault.
That is not what I have said. Either you are playing dumb or you have not understood or read what I've posted.
He is certainly responsible for a lot and there's no mistake about it. He reacted in a manner which was a mistake.
If I wanted to just see and read pro-Russian propaganda then all I have to do is open the WW3 thread in Avalon.
But yeah, let's just not care about any of this and allow innocent people to be killed and murdered. Business as usual.
Let's just see how these macho leaders handle this situation with their toys. Some real tough "men" they indeed are.
With that I mean Putler, Biden, Zelensky and all the other clown "leaders". Include Trump in that list too.
I think I will stop posting here until something culminates later on because this discussion is not going anywhere.
"The more I see, the less I know for sure." ~ John Lennon
Originally posted by Wind
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