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Thread: World War Three

  1. #841
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    “We want to see Russia weakened to the degree that it can’t do the kinds of things that it has done in invading Ukraine,” Austin said.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...ukraine-visit/

    So, here's something to chew on. The U.S. has been wanting to pivot to China, devote many of the resources it's been putting to keep the old Soviet Union in check, to now keep China on check, but they may have a couple of problems to deal with first. NATO has come more and more to be seen as not all that necessary, and Russia stubbornly refuses to bend the knee to the US led international order. Putin will work with them, but only on an equal footing, and that just will not do.

    Maybe it was well known that pushing further NATO expansion into Ukraine would be the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak.

    Forcing Putin's hand by continuing making Ukraine a defacto NATO state could kill two birds with one stone, both rekindle NATO's purpose of being (check), and bleeding out Putin's military using advanced US weaponry in Ukraine (still pending), that would free up much of big daddy's burden in Europe so that he can turn his attention more Eastward to the new kid on the block.

    Just a thought.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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  3. #842
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Just got done with this one. For any others that have enough of a geek streak in them to stick with nearly 1 3/4 hours to a debate on foreign policy, this one is highly recommended, these guys aren't just some Youtubers clashing for clicks, they're all heavy hitters in the realms of people who actually influence America's foreign policy in a direct way.

    Both sides of the great opinion divide on this touchy subject are well covered here, if you want to skip to where they really start clashing one on one, go to about the one hour mark, but the whole thing is quite interesting.
    Last edited by Fred Steeves, 23rd July 2022 at 00:02.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

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  5. #843
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    Just got done with this one. For any others that have enough of a geek streak in them to stick with nearly 1 3/4 hours to a debate on foreign policy, this one is highly recommended, these guys aren't just some Youtubers clashing for clicks, they're all heavy hitters in the realms of people who actually influence America's foreign policy in a direct way.

    Both sides of the great opinion divide on this touchy subject are well covered here, if you want to skip to where they really start clashing one on one, go to about the one hour mark, but the whole thing is quite interesting.
    This is utter bullshit: Russia's security interests are Europe's security interests. What needs to be considered are Putin's security interests. Putin desires power, glory, land, and a statue. Russia wants physical safety, peace, prosperity, and to enter the global community. This was the emerging Russian reality prior to Major fuckhead.

    Quit bullshitting yourself and trying to satisfy your simplistic view of the world. This wasn't Project Avalon 15 until Major Stick up his Ass vomited on the progressive New World Order!

    Chomsky: We are living in a repressive era of free speech. Sorry, but the man is too old and obviously is not able to keep abreast of developing zeitgeist. No one broadcasts 'the adversary's' viewpoint? Correction, no one broadcasts 'the Enemy's' viewpoint. All respectable serious news agencies do but unfortunately, no one gives a shit. Project Avalonians don't listen because most don't have the intellectual perspicacity to differentiate between valuable thought and pseudo-intellectual light, a.k.a. called empty-headed bullshit. And the ones that can ponder a substantial frame of reference already know. What do they know? That propaganda has the texture and substance of a big fat smelly, juicy terd.
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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  7. #844
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Chuckie View Post
    This is utter bullshit:
    Did you even watch it? What's utter bullshit about a debate, especially when one side of it is arguing on behalf of your world view?
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

  8. #845
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    Did you even watch it? What's utter bullshit about a debate, especially when one side of it is arguing on behalf of your world view?
    No Fred, I'm sorry I didn't watch it, there is literally no point in the debate. It isn't a debatable matter. It is there for the entire world to see. One can debate the value or lack of value of Western progressiveness and one can debate the value or lack of value of authoritarianism, but one cannot debate what is before one's very own eyes. Putin is a human pariah inflicted upon an unfortunate human race and specifically upon Ukraine, there is simply no room for dispute here!
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

  9. #846
    Senior Member Lord Sidious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Chuckie View Post
    No Fred, I'm sorry I didn't watch it, there is literally no point in the debate.
    Do you know how juvenile that is?
    Ní siocháin go saoirse

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  11. #847
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Lord Sidious View Post
    Do you know how juvenile that is?
    Sure I do, Mr the Sid, Fred has before pointed out in a very surreptitious way that I don't belong at the big boy's table. I'm good with that. As the debunked witnesses to UAP sightings will say, "I know what I see."
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

  12. #848
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    CBS News committed an act of journalism back in April concerning weapons being sent to Ukraine, and it didn't go over well. Now you see it now you don't.

    (12 minutes)
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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  14. #849
    Super Moderator Wind's Avatar
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    Invading another country is always a crime. With war comes many atrocities and war crimes too like during this time and Putin is responsible for all of it. However, at least personally I can't cheer for any slaughter of people even though of course people have the right to defend their own country and home. I feel sorry for all the young Russian soldiers sent to their demise too. Meanwhile the West is in it's own mind rightfully supporting Ukraine with weapons which is of course making a dent on the Russian troops. I would be more in favor of just the humanitarian aid, but weapons aid just proves that this is another proxy war for NATO which of course is going against Russia.


    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yNMmnuNC0g

    The war in Ukraine, stoked in part by NATO expansion and the violation of promises made to Moscow at the end of the Cold War, now looks set to become a lengthy war of attrition—one funded and backed by the United States. What will be the consequences of the United States's commitment to long-term conflict, and where will we be when the war finally ends?

    Andrew Bacevich explains in this interview how the end of the Cold War triggered a new bout of American military interventionism that has now spanned decades. Moreover, as Bacevich argues, if the fighting in Ukraine ceases without a geopolitical plan for peaceably bringing Russia back into the community of nations, we risk setting the world stage for even greater conflict.
    Last edited by Wind, 9th August 2022 at 19:18.

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  16. #850
    Super Moderator Wind's Avatar
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    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQc6mJ7u8gQ


    "Putin has long claimed that he is “denazifying” Ukraine, but these claims are hypocritical.

    In the early 00s, a wave of revolutions swept across countries in the former Soviet Union, calling for democratic reform and changing of political leadership.

    Fearing a similar uprising could start in Russia, Putin’s Kremlin clandestinely fostered relationships with far-right groups and ultra-nationalists in a policy that has been dubbed “managed nationalism”.

    These groups proved vital in turning Russia into the authoritarian regime that we see today.

    However, these relationships also proved useful in Russia exerting its power abroad, and have cultivated groups that will now fight abroad, and train foreign white supremacists – all with deadly consequences."

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  18. #851
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    This presentation just doesn't portray the world of realpolitik as I've come to recognize it, it shows many hallmarks of being based upon ideological considerations, as opposed to an objective look at events and circumstances on the ground.

    Two very stark examples I would point to are;

    - depictions of the color revolutions as being organic in nature, as opposed to soft coups.

    - depicting employment of right wing extremists as being organic to Russian foreign policy, as opposed to the Americans, who have held mastery of this craft for decades.

    I feel a disclaimer is warranted in that this is by no means implying that the Russians are "the good guys" here, just questioning the narrative that Vice is putting forth.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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  20. #852
    Super Moderator Wind's Avatar
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  22. #853
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    A sizeable portion pf propaganda, is in the decisions of what not to report. The lies of omission in support of said cause.

    This report from Amnesty International is a doozy of an example of omissions from the Western audience in general:

    Ukrainian forces have put civilians in harm’s way by establishing bases and operating weapons systems in populated residential areas, including in schools and hospitals, as they repelled the Russian invasion that began in February, Amnesty International said today.

    Such tactics violate international humanitarian law and endanger civilians, as they turn civilian objects into military targets. The ensuing Russian strikes in populated areas have killed civilians and destroyed civilian infrastructure.

    “We have documented a pattern of Ukrainian forces putting civilians at risk and violating the laws of war when they operate in populated areas,” said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s Secretary General.

    “Being in a defensive position does not exempt the Ukrainian military from respecting international humanitarian law.”
    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/ne...ger-civilians/



    Not that Russia is innocent of course, there are two sides to every story. As always, nuance is vital.
    Not every Russian attack documented by Amnesty International followed this pattern, however. In certain other locations in which Amnesty International concluded that Russia had committed war crimes, including in some areas of the city of Kharkiv, the organization did not find evidence of Ukrainian forces located in the civilian areas unlawfully targeted by the Russian military.
    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/ne...ger-civilians/
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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  24. #854
    Super Moderator Wind's Avatar
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    I can't support wars, but what would you do if a burglar comes to your house and wants it for himself? Isn't it your natural right to defend yourself, even using lethal force? I'm not condoning some of these atrocious actions of Ukrainians, but invasion is always wrong and that is something that Putin started. War is a dirty business and in the grand sceheme of things this is of course just another proxy war too.


    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGKcjUpHyik

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  26. #855
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    I can't support wars, but what would you do if a burglar comes to your house and wants it for himself? Isn't it your natural right to defend yourself, even using lethal force?
    Absolutely, nothing I ever post will be contrary to Ukraine (or any nation) having the right to self defense.

    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    I'm not condoning some of these atrocious actions of Ukrainians, but invasion is always wrong and that is something that Putin started.
    Well, the report I posted by Amnesty International was only meant to show that Ukraine fights dirty too, it's not just those dirty Russians that so many have been conditioned to believe. I've been wondering all along when hearing reports left and right of Russia bombing schools, hospitals, private homes, etc., if defenders on the Ukranian side may be encouraging this to happen by basing operations from these very places. And then there it is finally, Amnesty International discovers that this has indeed been happening.

    Western media would never report on something like that in a million years.







    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGKcjUpHyik


    As is to be expected, the sourcing of the above BBC piece comes directly from official Ukranian mouthpieces themselves. We're supposed to believe that anything a Russian says is 100% hogwash on its face, while anything coming from a Ukranian is good as gold, no questions asked. This is precisely what Noam Chomsky's classic book "Manufacturing Consent" talks about.

    As an aside, I couldn't help but notice the accusation in this piece of the Russians bombing (yet another) school on their way out. Right back to the script. Tomorrow it will be a hospital.

    Ukrainian forces have put civilians in harm’s way by establishing bases and operating weapons systems in populated residential areas, including in schools and hospitals, as they repelled the Russian invasion that began in February, Amnesty International said today.
    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/ne...ger-civilians/
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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