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Thread: World War Three

  1. #1711
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Why would the US use those weapons against their own people, and then when people start pointing the finger at Russia, defend Russia by stating that there is no evidence that the Russians were involved?

    That doesn't make any sense at all.
    Well #1, the US has proven time and again, that it has zero problem with experimenting on its own people.

    And #2, were we watching the same "60 Minutes" piece? Because all I heard was the usual "Russia-Russia-Russia-Russia-Russia", and capped off at the end with "Putin (bad)".




    Quote Originally posted by Gio View Post
    I see blame by both the U.S. and Cuban governments in prolonging this 60 year plus - Economic death-blow to the people and country of Cuba.
    How is Cuba to blame in its own blockade?

    Quote Originally posted by Gio View Post
    Which reminds me of another kind of weaponry being used currently against the U.S. as well.
    I know, I know, the US faces these threats on numerous fronts. That's why we're all over the world in that epic self defense stance.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    Senior Monk Gio's Avatar
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    LOL

    #IgetyouFred

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    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    So anyway, as is the case with the rest of mainstream media, this piece by "60 Minutes" is but a part of the ongoing official narrative, sheep dipped into resembling studious research. They did used to actually have a good show, when investigative journalism was still a thing on mainstream media with the likes oi Mike Wallace, but those days are done and gonzo across the board.

    The war is over on that front and the good guys lost, now it's raging on independent media, but at least true investigative journalism can still be found there. Without any real evidence, and given a choice of competing narratives, I'll take a lot more seriously the one from this guy. This "Russia muh Pussia" broken record is really getting old...
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    Senior Monk Gio's Avatar
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    Thinking

    Rumble Fred, speaking broken records.

    I imagine you could make a better argument video.

    That's 32 minutes of wasted time ...
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    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Not a Glenn Greenwald fan?
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    Senior Monk Gio's Avatar
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    Things to think about ...

    Apparently A Cessna and Elbow Grease
    Is All Ukraine Needs

    || Peter Zeihan


    Apr 3, 2024
    The Ukrainians are getting creative and finding ways to launch longer-range attacks on Russian infrastructure. We've already seen strikes on pipeline nexuses and chemical complexes as deep as Samara and Tatarstan.
    5:24 min.

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    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    So, I don't believe that listening to someone that you disagree with, is ever a waste of time. If a person can't debate any given subject from the opposite of their point of view, then they don't know that subject near as well as they think they do. Rather than just trash Zeihan with a cheap insult, I'll explain where he's wrong.

    1) Russia is not desperate to sell its oil to Germany. The US blowing up that pipeline only began Germany's spiral into de-industrialization from lack of the cheap energy, whereas a lot of people in the world are more than happy to be customers. It's only an illusion that the whole world hates "Putler", when actually it's only us the small minority here in the collective West.

    2) These arrogant Western commentators live in a reality composed of their delusions that every little successful strike Ukraine manages to pull off will prove devastating, so devastating that they will wind up driving Russia to its knees because these inferior people are too stupid and incompetent to find work arounds. Remember when they were "out of ammo", reduced to "fighting with shovels", and having to "use chips from washing machines to use in their drones"?

    3) Nothing from the actual battlefield, where it's turning into a complete disaster, and Zelensky is looking to conscript 300,000 more. Why is he looking for 300,000 more? Because they've already lost 500,000+. He's burned through 2 armies now, and looking to send more into the grinder after maybe a couple weeks of training.

    But people like Peter don't like to look and comment on actual reality, choosing instead to comment on the reality that's playing out in their heads, not on the ground. It will be interesting to see how even more extreme they will need to contort their rhetoric come what's going to happen when the ground turns solid again. I mean it's already like a ridiculously tragic parody, on scale with defending the indefensible in Israel's genocide, but the table is set for even that, to attain all new heights into the realms of the absurd.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    Senior Monk Gio's Avatar
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    Thinking

    I don't buy it Fred, you lose me with the above rhetorical analysis, when you try and convince (us) Peter Zeihan is full of shit, and that Ukraine is desperate and all finished up ...

    Peter and Ukraine will survive and thrive long after Putin and his #specialmeat-grindingoperationends ...


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    Super Moderator Wind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    It's only an illusion that the whole world hates "Putler", when actually it's only us the small minority here in the collective West.
    Perhaps you are living in an illusion, Fred. Sure there are places and people who like their dictators and "strong" "men" like Putin. Perhaps some eastern countries do like him, or at least don't hate him. I would also wager that lots of people on planet Earth, and especially in the European and Baltic region would be very happy to see him go. I don't even have to mention USA and it's war hawks.

    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    Nothing from the actual battlefield, where it's turning into a complete disaster
    I don't know if you look at videos from the battlefield, but through the war it has looked like a complete disaster for Russia.


    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPGdTsYLCuQ


    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    Why is he looking for 300,000 more? Because they've already lost 500,000+
    Where the hell are you getting these numbers? That's more like the amount of Russian troops dead.

    Ukraine has lost far fewer troops, although the numbers still massive indeed. Putin is responsible for all.

    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    But people like Peter don't like to look and comment on actual reality, choosing instead to comment on the reality that's playing out in their heads, not on the ground. It will be interesting to see how even more extreme they will need to contort their rhetoric come what's going to happen when the ground turns solid again. I mean it's already like a ridiculously tragic parody, on scale with defending the indefensible in Israel's genocide, but the table is set for even that, to attain all new heights into the realms of the absurd.
    I've not followed this guy, but it looks like the war has been in a standstill. Russia has it's artillery, constantly loses troops and gear, including so many tanks. Ukraine is taking casualty too and it's not like they could just easily destroy the whole of Russia and Russian army, but they sure enough have been handling it well. Of course the price has been many lives. If it wasn't for western weapons and training then they would have been in trouble. Should the collective west have stayed out of the war and allowed Russia to dominate and control Ukraine, like it would have been just the business between the two of them? Because it never really was. Ukraine wanted out of Russia's control and Putin didn't want that. Also the "West" and USA too of course wanted Ukraine to move away from the Russian control.
    "The more I see, the less I know for sure." ~ John Lennon

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  19. #1720
    Senior Monk Gio's Avatar
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    Returning Topic

    A gift for Fred ...



    #ThePlan ...

    Mike Johnson Is Doing the Left's Bidding. Why?

    Tucker Carlson


    Apr 3, 2024
    Is Speaker of the House Mike Johnson being blackmailed to do the bidding of the left? It certainly seems that way. His colleague, Marjorie Taylor Greene, explains.

    24:20 min.


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  21. #1721
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Gio View Post
    I don't buy it Fred, you lose me with the above rhetorical analysis, when you try and convince (us) Peter Zeihan is full of shit, and that Ukraine is desperate and all finished up ...

    Peter and Ukraine will survive and thrive long after Putin and his #specialmeat-grindingoperationends ...
    Okay then, I see the counter analysis is "Go Team!" with pom poms and nothing more. The force of Western propaganda is strong indeed, in that it even affects alt media veterans, but we're gonna be separating the wheat from the chaff pretty soon.




    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    Perhaps you are living in an illusion, Fred. Sure there are places and people who like their dictators and "strong" "men" like Putin. Perhaps some eastern countries do like him, or at least don't hate him. I would also wager that lots of people on planet Earth, and especially in the European and Baltic region would be very happy to see him go. I don't even have to mention USA and it's war hawks.
    An illusion, hmmm... Have you ever, like, looked in on how representatives of the other 6 billion vote at the UN? Or what the dozens upon dozens of nations looking to be invited into BRICS are saying? No, you're not, or you wouldn't have said something like that. The rest of the world is rapidly turning against this "golden billion" of the West.

    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    I don't know if you look at videos from the battlefield, but through the war it has looked like a complete disaster for Russia.
    Right. According to Western mainstream media, everything is a complete disaster for every single nation, that doesn't bow to the Rules Based International Order. Funny how that works. That's where mainstream sources like "The Telegraph", morph in with independent media infiltrators like Peter Zeihan - everything good that can possibly happen for the West is on the way, as everything possibly bad is on the way for any and all adversaries.


    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    Where the hell are you getting these numbers? That's more like the amount of Russian troops dead.
    Not from the Central Collective...

    Just keep on believing that Zelensky is desperately seeking to conscript 300,000 more, even though he's only lost 31,000.

    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    Putin is responsible for all.
    Yep, totally unprovoked war of aggression from a brutal dictator, if memory serves me right. Got it for the umteenth time.


    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    I've not followed this guy, but it looks like the war has been in a standstill. Russia has it's artillery, constantly loses troops and gear, including so many tanks.
    Yet they keep gaining more territory, and taking over cities. The only problem seems to be that they can't hardly kill anyone in the process of doing so.

    Like I said to Gio, we're getting to a point here where the wheat's gonna start being separated from the chaff. In other words, what happens when narrative propaganda is finally confronted face to face with reality.

    It's going to be something watching the necessarily even more extreme contortions of these spin meisters like The Telegraph, Peter Zeihen, and countless others at that point. The ground on the battlefield will be getting more firm from the winter wet soon, let's all watch the truth of this matter come out together as summer rolls along, shall we? That is if we don't induce a nuclear exchange first through our irresponsible, infantile, and irrational foreign policy first.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    Senior Monk Gio's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    The latest ...

    NATO considers massive 100 billion
    euro fund for Ukraine

    | DW News


    Apr 3, 2024
    NATO foreign ministers meeting in Brussels have been debating a 100 billion euro fund for Ukraine.

    The five-year funding would be part of a push for the western military alliance to take over from the US-led group that currently coordinates weapon shipments to Ukraine. NATO is also seeking to reduce Ukraine's dependence on Washington, where 60 billion dollars in Ukrainian aid has been stalled in Congress for months.
    7:17 min.

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  25. #1723
    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    Ukraine wanted out of Russia's control and Putin didn't want that. Also the "West" and USA too of course wanted Ukraine to move away from the Russian control.
    Predominantly the latter, because opinions in Ukraine itself were divided. Half of the people wanted a pro-western course, and the other half a pro-Russian course. But the pro-western faction was primarily driven by neo-Nazis, and it got the support and some additionally convincing pep talk and promises from American diplomats, because the Empire wanted to expand its borders toward the East.

    This is what then led to the uprising with those infamous Maidan square protests, and to Viktor Yanukovych being overthrown in a coup, and replaced by Zelenskyy. And Putin saw it all happening, and he decided to intervene.

    There are no good guys in this war. What Putin did was wrong, and what Zelenskyy and his own co-conspirators did was equally wrong. And both sides are using propaganda and the manipulation of information, and both sides are committing ruthless and heinous war crimes. But just as with the USA willfully remaining blind to Israel's umpteenth attempt at exterminating the Palestinian people, the West is selectively blind to Ukraine's own sins, both before and during the war, because "Putin bad".

    I've said it countless times before and I'll say it once more: Putin may be a filthy thug, but it wasn't he who started this war. This war was started two decades ago already, when the Empire decided to dispose of Russia's collaboration and instead sought to expand NATO toward the East in order to stab Russia in the back as an international partner in scientific and economic collaboration. Because Putin was willing to be that partner, and he was willing to continue extending the olive branch that Gorbachev and Yeltsin had extended to the West before him.

    It just so happens to be that the Empire had other plans, and in spite of its "freedom and democracy" rhetoric and its feigned humanitarianism, the Empire is a ruthless, merciless, greedy and remorseless predator. And that's why I refuse to take sides in this war.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  27. #1724
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Predominantly the latter, because opinions in Ukraine itself were divided. Half of the people wanted a pro-western course, and the other half a pro-Russian course. But the pro-western faction was primarily driven by neo-Nazis, and it got the support and some additionally convincing pep talk and promises from American diplomats, because the Empire wanted to expand its borders toward the East.
    Right. And an important addendum is that it's Eastern Ukraine that's pro Russian, with Western Ukraine being pro West. That helps to explain (to those willing to listen) why it's not so automatic that the boogeyman is just out to gobble up land and reinstate the Soviet Union. The heavily Russian speaking people of Eastern Ukraine, namely the Donbass region, had been mercilessly shelled and treated as second class citizens by "the good guy Nazis" for years since the 2014 US sponsored coup, had been begging Putin for help, and finally when it became crystal clear that the US had zero intentions of backing off their advances, he finally stepped in. And that's why it was branded a "special military operation", not an all out war as apparently it is now after the terrorist attack.

    When seen through that lens, it's very easy to see that all Putin really wanted was for Russians to be able to live dignified lives as Russians, and have a buffer between Russia, and the steadily advancing West. This garbage about him wanting to first swallow all of Ukraine, then the Baltics, then further on westward is purely hot steaming turd, and the proof will be in the pudding if we don't bump this fucking thing up to nuclear exchange status first. We're being told to back off.

    Which leads me to this, the all important "Left Hand Path" vs. the "Right Hand Path":


    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    Well, that's all coming to a head now, isn't it?

    I guess a question that should loom over those fully supporting Project Ukraine should be this: without the full support of the US (same as with Israel), this thing would have been over long ago. So how far you want the US to take this? Is it worth the very real possibility of nuclear war, to try and salvage at all cost, a war that is already lost?

    Maybe a lot of that depends on how one sees it.

    If you see it as the oft repeated mantra "we fight them over there, so we don't have to fight them here" - that Ukraine is just the first of many dominoes to fall in a mad man's attempt to take over the world, then I reckon you're in at all cost.

    If you see it as a nation finally brushing an aggressive foreign power off its doorstep, while securing a buffer and protecting its people, then you want this over yesterday.
    When I threw that out there a few weeks ago, I was still just a bit undecided if the collective West led by the US and its "Rules Based International Order" was delusional enough in its feverish condition to take it all the way to nuclear exchange if they don't win (which it's now clear they won't), but by now, the fever is so out of control as mirrored by the Zionists of Israel that I'm convinced these ghouls will risk laying this whole planet to nuclear winter before they'll give up on their already lost dream of continued world domination.

    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    There are no good guys in this war. What Putin did was wrong, and what Zelenskyy and his own co-conspirators did was equally wrong.
    So we agree on so much, let me just poke around this a bit with you. I see that position a lot, IMO often times in an attempt to not alienate the Ukrainian flag wavers mired in the propaganda pits, but here's the big question: the way I look at it is seeing an armed and hostile group of people steadily encroaching towards my house with intent to take me out, no matter how many warnings I issue to keep their distance, they just brush it off with cheap grade school like insults and keep on advancing. At some point, it becomes clear either I take action to actually do something about having my home wrecked by hostile forces, or it eventually gets to the point that they just waltz on in and continue their little vampire ball in my fucking living room.

    What was Putin to do? How far was he supposed to let this thing play out? How powerful was he supposed to let this US supported neo-Nazi force parked on his doorstep get? Who was listening, who cared? A final "fight or flight" reaction comes to my mind.

    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    It just so happens to be that the Empire had other plans, and in spite of its "freedom and democracy" rhetoric and its feigned humanitarianism, the Empire is a ruthless, merciless, greedy and remorseless predator. And that's why I refuse to take sides in this war.
    Again, emphasizing that I agree with probably 90% of your opinions on these matters, but just to get into more of the minutia.

    Taking sides. I see where you're coming from, but as for me anyway, I don't really see it in terms of taking sides. Anyone can look back a couple of years on this thread and easily see that when this terrible war first started, I really didn't know much of anything about what was really going on, why Putin suddenly made a bee line towards Kiev with (only) 90,000 troops. But rather than just consume the Western company line, I started looking into it myself, and learned what the hell was really going on. And that, combined with also learning all about what the "Rules Based International Order" really is, and its goals, paints a very clear picture. And that picture makes Western propaganda look as ridiculous as I would look in high heels and a dress!

    Having gotten that premise out of the way, I see it more as understanding the overall motives of both sides. Seeing very clearly that one side is a cornered animal, a crumbling empire literally losing its mind to sheer insanity in a feverish attempt to recapture what it has already lost. It's not willing to just be an important and powerful nation at the table with other powerful and important nations, it has to have all of them, every last one, thoroughly subjugated. And as stated earlier, I now cannot see a path where these deeply sick ghouls will just accept that they've failed in their attempts. We're just like Israel in this fever, we'll take the whole world down with us before we'll stop. The Fever has no brakes.

    So maybe that is taking sides, but it's just the side of not wanting to see my country set the whole world on fire. If that leaves me leaning more towards hoping that countries like Russia, China, Iran, can somehow maintain their infinite patience and figure out how to maneuver through this gauntlet without taking the bait that would for sure be hailed by the West as "a totally unprovoked aggression by crazed evil dictators who brutalize their own people, now bent on world domination"...

    Hopefully I'm wrong about this; but if the US backs down in its current efforts to bring down the competition, the multi polar world it so opposes is hereby birthed. At that point there's no going back, making empire's current position as do, or retire forever the empire status. Do they have the kind of wisdom to know when to say when, to call it a day rather than igniting a world war? God damn man I'm sure not seeing it.

    All I see is The Fever climbing higher, and higher, and higher...
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    It just so happens to be that the Empire had other plans, and in spite of its "freedom and democracy" rhetoric and its feigned humanitarianism, the Empire is a ruthless, merciless, greedy and remorseless predator. And that's why I refuse to take sides in this war.
    So we agree on so much, let me just poke around this a bit with you. I see that position a lot, IMO often times in an attempt to not alienate the Ukrainian flag wavers mired in the propaganda pits, but here's the big question: the way I look at it is seeing an armed and hostile group of people steadily encroaching towards my house with intent to take me out, no matter how many warnings I issue to keep their distance, they just brush it off with cheap grade school like insults and keep on advancing. At some point, it becomes clear either I take action to actually do something about having my home wrecked by hostile forces, or it eventually gets to the point that they just waltz on in and continue their little vampire ball in my fucking living room.

    What was Putin to do? How far was he supposed to let this thing play out? How powerful was he supposed to let this US supported neo-Nazi force parked on his doorstep get? Who was listening, who cared? A final "fight or flight" reaction comes to my mind.
    I remember saying the exact same thing a few years ago in a discussion with either Chris or Dreamtimer about this same situation. It may even have been here on this thread.

    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    And that picture makes Western propaganda look as ridiculous as I would look in high heels and a dress!
    Hey, you got away with that for — what was it? — five years at some other venue on the interwebbies.

    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    Having gotten that premise out of the way, I see it more as understanding the overall motives of both sides. Seeing very clearly that one side is a cornered animal, a crumbling empire literally losing its mind to sheer insanity in a feverish attempt to recapture what it has already lost. It's not willing to just be an important and powerful nation at the table with other powerful and important nations, it has to have all of them, every last one, thoroughly subjugated. And as stated earlier, I now cannot see a path where these deeply sick ghouls will just accept that they've failed in their attempts. We're just like Israel in this fever, we'll take the whole world down with us before we'll stop. The Fever has no brakes.

    So maybe that is taking sides, but it's just the side of not wanting to see my country set the whole world on fire. If that leaves me leaning more towards hoping that countries like Russia, China, Iran, can somehow maintain their infinite patience and figure out how to maneuver through this gauntlet without taking the bait that would for sure be hailed by the West as "a totally unprovoked aggression by crazed evil dictators who brutalize their own people, now bent on world domination"...

    Hopefully I'm wrong about this; but if the US backs down in its current efforts to bring down the competition, the multi polar world it so opposes is hereby birthed. At that point there's no going back, making empire's current position as do, or retire forever the empire status. Do they have the kind of wisdom to know when to say when, to call it a day rather than igniting a world war? God damn man I'm sure not seeing it.

    All I see is The Fever climbing higher, and higher, and higher...
    Well, with the upcoming US elections, all bets are off, really. I'm not sure whether Ol' Joe would really want to fire his nukes and blow up the goddamn planet, but if Orange Jesus™ were to get back into the White House, then that's on the table, because he's crazy enough to go there.

    But then again on the other hand, if he were to bail out of NATO as he said he would, then Putin wins, unless the EU were to take over from the Empire, and there are certainly a couple of individuals within the EU who'd get their kicks out of the EU going to war with Russia — a war we'd lose, of course, because unlike the Empire, we've never been involved in perpetual warfare, and our defenses have slacked over the decades since World War II.

    And if indeed Putin wins, then it's finally game over for the Empire and its world domination. Russia and China will flourish, as will other Asian nations such as India, and possibly a few African nations and a few South-American ones. I don't see any way for the Empire to get back into the saddle once that happens. But of course, inside the Empire's borders, things will become very, very bad, because then you guys are going to have to cope with an open fascist who's even crazier now than he was the first time around.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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