Incorrectomundo.
IF they had lost, it was the soviets who beat them.
In terms of lives lost, the Soviets made the biggest sacrifice, but the support of the British Empire and later, the USA, was just as important, via the arctic convoys. 75 percent of the tanks the Soviets had, at the Battle of Moscow, which arguably turned the tide of the war, were British.
However, they didn't lose as it's not over.
The Oberkommando Der Wehrmacht surrendered, not the Reich.
Back to the drawing board forumnuggets...............
Sorry, but you lost me there, I have no idea what you mean...
The war on the Eastern front was the straw that broke the camel's back and the Soviets invaded Berlin first. Poor Germans, they really preferred surrendering to Americans and to the Brits as they were nowhere near as brutal as the Soviet Army could be, partly thanks to Stalin's orders too.
I'm not exactly sure what Sidinugget refers to either, but the nazi leaders including Hitler escaped to Argentina. Did they still keep some operations going there? I heard that the nazi hunters could catch many nazi officials, but also many were never caught and that would include not only the big boss himself, but also the likes of Mengele and such. Although Mengele didn't spend that much time in Argentina, he spent the rest of his life in Brazil and continued his horrible human experiments there. If there was ever a true monster in human form then that was him.
And who is trying to revive the Reich? I've no doubt there's someone.
There's always been talk of a fourth reich in conspiracy circles, but personally, I don't buy it.
There is no country in existence today which is in any way comparable to the Third Reich, it was really a uniquely evil entity in world history.
Sure, people might be borrowing certain methods and tactics from the Third Reich, but overall no country represents the same kind of threat to the world today. We should be thankful for that.
I get irritated by comparisons made between the US and the Third Reich, that's such nonsense.
If the Nazis were in charge in the US (which was a real danger in both the US and the UK, in the thirties) it would be a 100 percent white country, probably entirely Aryan, with some minorities, like the Italians just about tolerated, but there would be no Blacks, Jews, Latinos, Disabled People, or anyone openly gay. All of those categories of people would be extinct. Not saying that this is what you are suggesting, but plenty of other people on the conspiracy circle make such grandiose claims and that really irritates me.
Originally posted by Wind
The war of the Eastern front was the straw that broke the camel's back and the Soviets invaded Berlin first. Poor Germans, they really preferred surrendering to Americans and to the Brits as they were nowhere near as brutal as the Soviet Army could be, partly thanks to Stalin's orders too.
I'm not exactly sure what Sidinugget refers to either, but the nazi leaders including Hitler escaped to Argentina. Did they still keep some operations going there? I heard that the nazi hunters could catch many nazi officials, but also many were never caught and that would include not only the big boss himself, but also the likes of Mengele and such. Although Mengele didn't spend that much time in Argentina, he spent the rest of his life in Brazil and continued his horrible human experiments there. If there was ever a true monster in human form then that was him.
Which reminds me, my local GP used to be so bad, that everybody in the Village used to call him Dr Mengele, behind his back
I think Mr. the Cid is alluding to the difference in who was really in control of the effort. There was a denizen here who talked and acted as if they were on the grand search for the 4th Reich. Apparently, 'she' concluded it wasn't here.
And who is trying to revive the Reich? I've no doubt there's someone.
There's far more than you wanna know.
Originally posted by Chris
Sorry, but you lost me there, I have no idea what you mean...
Googlerate it
Originally posted by Chris
There's always been talk of a fourth reich in conspiracy circles, but personally, I don't buy it.
You can't have a 4th when the 3rd isn't finished
Originally posted by Chris
There is no country in existence today which is in any way comparable to the Third Reich, it was really a uniquely evil entity in world history.
Yeah...............nah
Originally posted by Chris
Sure, people might be borrowing certain methods and tactics from the Third Reich, but overall no country represents the same kind of threat to the world today. We should be thankful for that.
I think you've read a lot of rubbish.
They had no navy for power projection, no strategic bomber force and there were only 80 million Germans full stop.
Originally posted by Chris
I get irritated by comparisons made between the US and the Third Reich, that's such nonsense.
Me too. The united snakes is the biggest threat of all recorded history.
Originally posted by Chris
If the Nazis were in charge in the US (which was a real danger in both the US and the UK, in the thirties) it would be a 100 percent white country, probably entirely Aryan, with some minorities, like the Italians just about tolerated, but there would be no Blacks, Jews, Latinos, Disabled People, or anyone openly gay. All of those categories of people would be extinct. Not saying that this is what you are suggesting, but plenty of other people on the conspiracy circle make such grandiose claims and that really irritates me.
You might be surprised what you would find out if you read facts for a change. Blacks, Jews, middle easterners all fought for Germany in the second world war.
As for being irritated, I know the feeling............
Originally posted by BeastOfBologna
I think Mr. the Cid is alluding to the difference in who was really in control of the effort.
I think you've read a lot of rubbish.
They had no navy for power projection, no strategic bomber force and there were only 80 million Germans full stop.
Me too. The united snakes is the biggest threat of all recorded history.
You might be surprised what you would find out if you read facts for a change. Blacks, Jews, middle easterners all fought for Germany in the second world war.
As for being irritated, I know the feeling............
Not at all
Hey Sid, I am curious about your point concerning who fought for Germany? Are you saying that 'Germany' was tolerant of Blacks, Jews, middle easterners or was the case as history claimed they were 'forced' labor?
I believe you. I've asked before and you were reticent. And I'm afraid it's right here.
We have the white supremacists.
We have the right wing.
We have the marchers and their chants about Jews.
We have the courts being jammed with Federalist Judges.
We have folks jonesing for revolution or civil war, ready to execute millions of Americans on trumped up charges.
We have people who have been talking about death camps since Sarah Palin. Probably before her but just not in the mainstream.
We have folks who have been delegitimizing the President when it's a Democrat, both Obama and Biden. (starting with Clinton)
We have people flying and waving Nazi flags.
We have it all, don't we?
Me too. The united snakes is the biggest threat of all recorded history.
Perhaps instead of MAGA hats we should have Naga hats.
I had an interesting conversation with a friend earlier this year. We were talking about why people immigrate to the US, and why Europeans came here in the first place. I was thinking about monarchies and the Spanish Inquisition and I said, "Yeah, people do terrible things."
My friend rounded on me in a fury and said, "Name one terrible thing America has done!!!" I looked at him and said, "I said people. Not America."
And then the fire abated and he no longer looked like he was going to tear my eyes out.
We're in a place where even normal discussions are not really possible.
My friend rounded on me in a fury and said, "Name one terrible thing America has done!!!"
I think I could possibly name a few. Lessee...
Genocide against the Native Americans ─ with the remainder of them driven back into barren reservations where poverty and substance abuse thrive ─ in order to steal their land in the name of manifest destiny.
Abducting Africans away from their homes and brutally forcing them into slave labor at the cotton plantations.
Luring poor Chinese folks over to North America under false promises, only to have them work on the railroads, under living conditions not much better than those of the abducted Africans.
Dropping two nuclear bombs on Japan in 1945 with the sole intent of scaring the Soviets, because Japan was already on the verge of capitulating. A bomber with a third nuclear bomb was on its way over to Tokyo when Japan officially capitulated, and was subsequently ordered back to base.
Consistently supporting right-wing dictators and fascist regimes with economical, political and military resources all over the world ever since the end of World War II.
The witch hunt against suspected socialists and/or communists ordained by Senator Joseph McCarthy in the 1950s, and the political imprisonment of such individuals.
Overthrowing democratically elected regimes through infiltration, subterfuge, assassinations, the sponsoring of right-wing paramilitary groups and terrorists, all over the world.
Perpetual war through the invasion of sovereign nations under the false pretenses that they would be a threat to the USA's national security, while in reality, it is so as to continue expanding the corporate and military-industrial empire.
The torturing of prisoners of war and alleged terrorism suspects, and their unlawful detention for indefinite duration at undisclosed facilities without a chance to a fair trial and without granting access to the detained by the International Red Cross.
The willful committing of war crimes, accompanied by a political boycott of all NATO operations until NATO as a whole would accept a new internal rule that forbids NATO from prosecuting any of its member states for crimes of war.
Refusal to acknowledge the validity of the International War Tribunal in De Hague.
Experimentation with chemical weapons and psychological warfare tactics on unwitting and non-consenting US American citizens and US military personnel.
Systemic racism and the perpetual violation of human rights, with too many examples in too many diverse areas to list them.
Systemic and gratuitous use of lethal force against unarmed suspects, including children.
Capital punishment, and experimentation with cruel methods of execution.
And that's all just off the top of my head. You might want to print out that list and show it to your friend.
Reporter: "Mr. Ghandi, what do you think of western civilization?"
Mahatma Gandhi: "I think it would be a great idea."
Genocide against the Native Americans ─ with the remainder of them driven back into barren reservations where poverty and substance abuse thrive ─ in order to steal their land in the name of manifest destiny.
Abducting Africans away from their homes and brutally forcing them into slave labor at the cotton plantations.
Luring poor Chinese folks over to North America under false promises, only to have them work on the railroads, under living conditions not much better than those of the abducted Africans.
Dropping two nuclear bombs on Japan in 1945 with the sole intent of scaring the Soviets, because Japan was already on the verge of capitulating. A bomber with a third nuclear bomb was on its way over to Tokyo when Japan officially capitulated, and was subsequently ordered back to base.
Consistently supporting right-wing dictators and fascist regimes with economical, political and military resources all over the world ever since the end of World War II.
The witch hunt against suspected socialists and/or communists ordained by Senator Joseph McCarthy in the 1950s, and the political imprisonment of such individuals.
Overthrowing democratically elected regimes through infiltration, subterfuge, assassinations, the sponsoring of right-wing paramilitary groups and terrorists, all over the world.
Perpetual war through the invasion of sovereign nations under the false pretenses that they would be a threat to the USA's national security, while in reality, it is so as to continue expanding the corporate and military-industrial empire.
The torturing of prisoners of war and alleged terrorism suspects, and their unlawful detention for indefinite duration at undisclosed facilities without a chance to a fair trial and without granting access to the detained by the International Red Cross.
The willful committing of war crimes, accompanied by a political boycott of all NATO operations until NATO as a whole would accept a new internal rule that forbids NATO from prosecuting any of its member states for crimes of war.
Refusal to acknowledge the validity of the International War Tribunal in De Hague.
Experimentation with chemical weapons and psychological warfare tactics on unwitting and non-consenting US American citizens and US military personnel.
Systemic racism and the perpetual violation of human rights, with too many examples in too many diverse areas to list them.
Systemic and gratuitous use of lethal force against unarmed suspects, including children.
Capital punishment, and experimentation with cruel methods of execution.
And that's all just off the top of my head. You might want to print out that list and show it to your friend.
Not cool, huh! yeech, when you put it that way ... that isn't much to be proud of.
Not cool, huh! yeech, when you put it that way ... that isn't much to be proud of.
It was the Aliens ... One of the things I heard the other day is that some are speculating that the government will not release classified information because they are concerned that if they did that Russia, China, et al. would be aware that we know they have weapons that we don't. I gotta tell you, that one had me scratching my head in a big hunh?!
It was the Aliens ... One of the things I heard the other day is that some are speculating that the government will not release classified information because they are concerned that if they did that Russia, China, et al. would be aware that we know they have weapons that we don't. I gotta tell you, that one had me scratching my head in a big hunh?!
I think the Russians and the Chinese already know that, but unlike the USA, the Russians and the Chinese don't suffer from that insular cultural narcissism that leads the USA and most of its population to believe they're on top of the world.
I mentioned Manifest Destiny to a different friend, oh 25 years ago. I didn't even get a chance to finish my sentence. He said to me, "Boy were you raised with a liberal education!" and walked away.
He, by the way, was the OG political snowflake in my experience. He would insult people, usually with the word liberal, and then walk away. But the weird thing was, in his wake, his friends would all be like, "Oh, don't take it personally, he's just really patriotic. Oh, it's not you, he's just really patriotic. Oh, don't worry, you didn't say anything wrong. He's just really patriotic."
This pathetic dynamic of coddling snowflake conservatives has been around for a loooooooong time.
There is a lot of unrelated historical and political stuff on this thread now, perhaps it would be worth branching them off into separate threads. In any case, without wanting to get too deep into these discussions, I'd just make a couple of brief remarks:
- Yes, the Nazis employed various "untermenschen" to fight for them, especially Indians who they hoped would turn against Britain as well as other colonial subjects that were fighting for freedom from various colonial powers. They would have probably left the Indians alone, but as for other Untermenschen, there cannot be much ambiguity as to their eventual fate, even if they were useful cannon fodder at the time. Regarding what the US would have looked like under Nazi rule, we can only speculate, but you can pick your own fictional depiction. Man in the High Castle is pretty accurate, I feel.
- Like all great powers, the US has been responsible for some pretty nasty stuff, especially during the historical period when it was a settler and slaver state. That really isn't different from any other great power I can think of. None of it compared to the atrocities committed by the Third Reich and I think that is objectively true. This is doubly true for the current conduct of the US, which, if not exemplary, is certainly better than that of other great powers in the past.
Former Canadian defence minister Paul Hellyer says aliens will help humans if we stop wars
A former Canadian defence minister is urging humanity to abandon its warmongering ways and turn its back on atomic weaponry with the promise that advanced aliens will reward a more peaceful Earth with technological marvels and advancements in agriculture and medicine.
And while it is hard to take seriously a message that appears to be a mash-up of every science fiction trope to be dreamed up since Gene Roddenberry was in short pants, let’s give the message a moment of thought.
In a widely-shared interview with Russian Today, former defence minister Paul Hellyer said that he believed aliens were real, that they are present on Earth and that they would be more willing to help humanity if we stopped warring and polluting.
“We have a long history of UFOs and of course there has been a lot more activity in the last few decades since we invented the atomic bomb,” Hellyer said.
“They are very concerned about that and that we might use it again, because the whole cosmos as a unity, and it affects not just us but other people in the cosmos, they are very much afraid that we might be stupid enough to start using atomic weapons again.”
Hellyer, now 90, was a Canadian defence minister in the Lester B. Pearson government during the 1960s. He is described in by Russia Today host Sophie Shevardnadze as the “first cabinet-level politician from a G8 country to publicly state there is extraterrestrial life present on Earth.”
Hellyer first publicly declared his belief in aliens in 2005, long after he retired from politics. He says he has never met an alien, but has seen a UFO near his cabin on Ontario’s Lake Muskoka. While Hellyer’s public belief in aliens is not new, it garnered fresh attention this week due to the overly descriptive and in-depth details he outlined on Russia Today.
Hellyer’s beliefs include the following details:
Most aliens come from other star systems, although there are some living on Venus, Mars and Saturn’s moon.
There have been four species of aliens visiting our planet for thousands of years.
Most alien species have benevolent intentions toward humanity, although a handful have ulterior motives.
One alien species, known as the “Tall Whites” is working with the U.S. air force in Nevada and has been known to pass for humans in public.
The “federation” of alien species has vowed not to intervene in human affairs unless they are invited to.
The federation is disappointed in the way humans have treated the planet.
Aliens technology is far more advanced. They have given us LED lights, microchips and Kevlar vests, but would be far more helpful if we weren’t warmongers.
There are between two and twelve total species of aliens (although some place the number closer to 80). Some look just like humans, while others appear more like the creatures portraying in popular culture.
“We spend too much time fighting each other, we spend too much money on military expenditures and not enough on feeding the poor and looking after the homeless and sick,” he said in the interview with Russia Today.
“They would like to work with us and teach us better ways but only, I think, with our consent. They don’t think we are good stewards of our planet. We are clear cutting forests and polluting our rivers and our lakes. We are dumping sewage in the oceans. We are doing all sorts of things which are not what good stewards should be doing and they don’t like that.”
Such an uninhibited declaration of belief in alien life is hard to ignore. It is also sadly hard to take seriously. It will leave most of us snorting in derision or guffawing out of incredulity.
But let’s pretend for a moment that there is a 0.0005 per cent chance that Hellyer is right. That advanced alien life is here, that is it living among us and it is waiting for humanity to clean itself up before swooping in and sharing with us marvels of advanced medicine and agriculture (and, presumably, space travel). Would that be worth it?
There is a simple logical exercise we should consider (borrowed from this video on climate change). Either Hellyer’s synopsis on alien life is correct, or it’s not. If it is correct and we abandon our warmongering ways, we are rewarded. If it is correct and we maintain our flawed course, we are left behind.
However, if we abandon our warmongering ways and it is proven that he was totally wrong about alien life, we still find ourselves ahead of where we otherwise would have been.
So, sure. We should be skeptical of the source and the details and the, erm, science fictional details. But at the core, the former defence minister of a G8 country is calling for an end to war.
Humanity can either buy in to Hellyer’s interpretation of a Star Trek-ian alien federation and come together now, or wait for an evil genius to unite us by teleporting a giant squid into the heart of New York City, a la The Watchmen.
Originally posted by Lord Sidious
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