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Thread: Fallout Following Attempted Coup in US

  1. #136
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    It's really amazing to see how afraid they are on the right. They cannot even watch, or in the case of Fox air the Hearings. Tucker's entire show was commercial free. After all, you cannot risk having folks go away to see what happened. They might see the light. They might understand. Can't have that!

    The committee did things in the manner laid out by Beau. They summarized what they were going to tell you, then they began to tell, and show, and they will wrap it up with a nice bow at the end, reiterating what was laid out in the intro.

    The cowardice of the right is pretty sad. Party over country sucks the big one, no matter which country it is.

    More people have been/are being arrested. Cheney used the language of seditious conspiracy. That's Yuge. Big League.

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  3. #137
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    I don't know how many folks here have watched/listened to the hearings. Things were worse even than was evident on the sixth.

    Trump was told by his lawyers and staff that he lost. He ignored it and spread the big lie anyway. He said maybe his supporters had the right idea when they wanted to hang Mike Pence.

    We've now been poisoned with this lie and folks are corrupting the electoral process and claiming fraud before elections are even held.

    Barack Obama got it all wrong when he said that Republicans cling to their guns and bibles. What they cling to is their lies. From Iran Contra, to Weapons of Mass Destruction, to orchestrating a coup, they lie and lie and lie.

    They cling to their lies like a life boat.

    I just hope we don't sink along with them.

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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    So after watching just 1/2 of the first hearing thus far last evening, that's already plenty enough to extrapolate out where this thing is headed, and what the purpose it. Although I am appreciative of the evidence gathered seeming to show some real complicity to try and hang onto power by Trump and some of his goon squad, and if the case made gets accepted by the Justice Department anyone found guilty of whatever crime should certainly pay the price accordingly, these proceedings are as far from an objective based investigation, as a prosecutor is to a defense attorney.

    The democrats in charge of this are now going on 6 years of wasting their time blaming everything under the sun (including a lost presidential election) on Vladimir Putin, on the side they impeached Captain Chaos twice during that same for silly shit, they still have nothing to run on for the November elections save for the usual screaming from the mountain tops that the other side is worse, and the two republicans on the committee are in the faction attempting to defeat the dominant Orange haired Jesus faction, so who in their right mind can look at this and call it objective?

    They're going to spend the rest of this made for prime time theater cherry picking the worst shit they can possibly find (yes some of it looks damning at first blush) to further their agenda, while ignoring anything and everything that doesn't fit with the agenda. The American people are going to get precisely 1/2 the story, no different than what jurors hear from the prosecution; but at least jurors get to hear the other side of the story from the defense team, t.v. viewers will get no such thing.

    For instance, I wonder how much time will be spent addressing the utter lack of security around the Capitol building on Jan. 6th? A lot of people had some idea what was coming, hell I had some idea what was coming for crying out loud, so why was the joint left all but unguarded? We've seen other examples of police being under stand down orders, what happened in Charlottesville in 2017 was one such example, and there's every indication that this is what happened on Jan. 6th as well. Some people in high places facilitated this to happen, they invited it.

    I was pleasantly surprised to see today that Jimmy Dore did a very good job at demonstrating the other side of this coin that I'm pointing to. "Insurrection Porn", ROFL!
    Actually, it all points to the same source ... All roads lead to Rome ... but, when I was visiting San Francisco, New Orleans, small town New Mexico, I realized that all roads do not lead to Rome, perhaps only in Rome.

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  7. #139
    Super Moderator Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    I don't know how many folks here have watched/listened to the hearings. Things were worse even than was evident on the sixth.

    Trump was told by his lawyers and staff that he lost. He ignored it and spread the big lie anyway. He said maybe his supporters had the right idea when they wanted to hang Mike Pence.

    We've now been poisoned with this lie and folks are corrupting the electoral process and claiming fraud before elections are even held.

    Barack Obama got it all wrong when he said that Republicans cling to their guns and bibles. What they cling to is their lies. From Iran Contra, to Weapons of Mass Destruction, to orchestrating a coup, they lie and lie and lie.

    They cling to their lies like a life boat.

    I just hope we don't sink along with them.
    We're watching every last minute of it. It's history in the making, important to take note as it happens.

    I must say the committee has done a very thorough job in their research, meticulous even, and I'm quite impressed. So far anyway, it's not looking good for that attorney for Trump John Eastman, the source leading the charge to change the electors. So far anyway, if anyone's in jeopardy of doing the frog march boogie, it's gonna be him. He looks like a real piece of work.

    And conversely, it's looking like Mike Pence is going to wind up being written into the history books as the hero of the day. I never would have guessed watching him being Trump's ever loyal obedient lap dog for 4 years, but most people have that bridge too far somewhere deep inside, he found his bridge too far, and stood tall. Good for him! A new American hero for the record books!

    Barack Obama got it all wrong when he said that Republicans cling to their guns and bibles. What they cling to is their lies. From Iran Contra, to Weapons of Mass Destruction, to orchestrating a coup, they lie and lie and lie.

    They cling to their lies like a life boat.
    But now wait a second... Pence is a republican, so is the new darling of the establishment Left Liz Cheney, and not to mention all of these witnesses who are testifying against Trump. There's a whole bunch of hard and true republicans up there doing this nation a service in getting the truth out there, and this is how you're still talking about them in sweeping fashion? There were democrats that voted for going to war with Iraq over WMD's, our current president amongst them, even though he loves act like he didn't (which is a lie). Democrats can be lying scumbags too.

    Anyway, I'm watching these hearings as a concerned American citizen, not as a partisan democrat looking for a third crack at impeachment, which in the end is (in my view) how this panel is looking at it. Anyone who wants to try and tell me that the democrats on this panel are impartial, with the likes of Adam Schiff up there, well I'm gonna be looking at them with a funny look on my face. Like, Really???

    Two different things can be true at the same time. Even though they're doing a good job laying out in detail what happened on January 6th, and the days leading up to it, I'm none the less continuing to see leading statements, stating opinions as fact, and lies of omission. They're using everything that's damning, and ignoring anything that's even the least bit exculpatory. That's exactly what a partisan does, and having republicans up there doesn't change anything because they have their own selfish agendas as well, they're in the enviable position of being able to lay out a case like the lead prosecutor, but without the defense or the judge saying you can't do this or that.

    They can do whatever they want.

    A good example of that was Rep. Pete Aguilar at the end of the latest session, telling the American people exactly what has happened so far, except he conveniently left out the part that that should precede it, which should have been something along the lines of: "our findings thus far tell us the following..." In a litigious setting that's night and day to "this is what happened". They're doing this a lot, it's not by mistake, as they know damn well the average Joe Six Pack sitting there on his couch is then going to assume that what he just heard was factual, case closed, when in reality it was nothing of the sort thing until the whole matter would be ruled on officially.

    But back to our program. So far it looks like they think they've got the old George Tenet "it's a slam dunk Mr. President" going on, that surely they've demonstrated sufficiently enough that Trump knew full well he had lost the election, and moved on to purposely lie about it from there. I disagree it's a slam dunk. It should be a slam dunk, but as in the first slam dunk that Iraq had WMD's, this is not necessarily so either. I was talking to my wife about this very thing, as she was pretty much convinced it's a slam dunk as well.

    What I think happened leading up to the 2020 election, and beyond, was nothing short of a mass psychosis phenomena. I'm serious as a heart attack!!!

    None of these MAGA hat wearing people think Trump is spewing "The Big Lie", and neither does Trump. Sure he heard all his lawyers and advisers telling him that he had lost. In his mind, it’s “DONALD TRUMP DOES NOT LOSE, so fuck anyone who thinks otherwise!"



    Remember this from 2016? Even when he wins, there still can't be the ever so slightest blemish attached to it, he's a narcissist extraordinaire:

    President-elect Donald Trump made the unfounded claim Sunday he won the popular vote in the presidential election — if millions of so-called “illegal votes” had not been counted.

    “In addition to winning the Electoral College in a landslide, I won the popular vote if you deduct the millions of people who voted illegally,” he tweeted.

    There is no evidence that millions voted illegally.

    Tallies of the popular vote show that Hillary Clinton beat Trump by more than 2 million votes, though Trump won more Electoral College vote and therefor the presidency.
    https://time.com/4582868/donald-trum...oted-election/

    Even though Trump's a proven liar, even up and beyond most other politicians, I don't think he was lying then, and I don't think he's lying now. I think he's delusional, along with his ever shrinking "Red MAGA Hat Brigade". I think this is a debilitating psychiatric condition, which should preclude him from ever having his hands on the levers of power again.

    Now that's not gonna happen, but that's how I see it. But the bottom line is that from what I've always heard, proving state of mind is extremely difficult, and I don't see this committee being able to prove what his state of mind was then, and still is. How do you prove that a person knows or doesn't know something? So no, they're not gonna catch Lucky on that one either.

    I don't mean to make light of this, because it truly was a serious situation, but this third crack at getting him is really starting to remind me of Wile E. Coyote ever trying and failing to get that damn Road Runner:
    Last edited by Fred Steeves, 19th June 2022 at 18:13.
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  9. #140
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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    What I think happened leading up to the 2020 election, and beyond, was nothing short of a mass psychosis phenomena. I'm serious as a heart attack!!!

    None of these MAGA hat wearing people think Trump is spewing "The Big Lie", and neither does Trump. Sure he heard all his lawyers and advisers telling him that he had lost. In his mind, "IT'S DONALD TRUMP DOES NOT LOSE, so fuck anyone who thinks otherwise!"

    [...]

    Even though Trump's a proven liar, even up and beyond most other politicians, I don't think he was lying then, and I don't think he's lying now. I think he's delusional, along with his ever shrinking "Red MAGA Hat Brigade". I think this is a debilitating psychiatric condition, which should preclude him from ever having his hands on the levers of power again.
    Even though I normally try staying out of anything to do with US politics on this forum, I must say that I am highly inclined to go with the above analysis. And I would even go a little bit farther and say that Donald Trump was already exhibiting those grotesque narcissistic delusions back in 2016.

    Because let's face it, he was not just the worst president the USA has ever had — just when George W. Bush was in the unmistakable lead for that nomination — but he was also the most stupid one. The guy just doesn't have a shred of common sense within him, and when it comes to his knowledge and understanding of both national and international politics, he's pretty much as illiterate as it gets. So, in my personal opinion, it's a combination of clinical narcissism and delusions of grandeur on the one hand, with an onset of dementia — possibly Alzheimer's — on the other.

    I can't say I pity him, though. Given the responsibility that rested on his shoulders — including the difference between life and death for many Americans and non-Americans — and how he vehemently cast that off of him each and every time, I cannot bring myself to feel pity for him. In my book, it's karma, and he's got coming to him what he's got coming to him.

    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    What's worrysome about all of this is that Joe Biden is so unpopular now that I think that if Trump runs and he must surely will then he could easily beat Joe. Can you see any other Republican candidate winning the primaries besides Trump? I keep hearing about Ron Desantis, but when I think about the last time Trump went against all of those Republican candidates he was wiping the floor with them. The problem is that the likes of Trump should never even have the chance to run. The two-party system is also a joke. Joe won because he isn't Trump and because Trump messed the Covid-situation so badly. They haven't been able to stop Trump with anything yet.

    Even though George W. Bush was and is a war criminal just like his psychopath daddy was, Trump is still a wild card. He has been able to rally up people in unseen ways and I mean really disturbing and chaotic ways. He's a terrible populist and he is the culmination of certain kind energies and maybe you could say even the karma of USA. The worst case scenario I see in the next few years or decade is a civil war. That's if the rift between Democrats and Republicans or conservatives and liberals gets too big over some political and cultural issues. When there is a hatemonger leading the country then everything can turn into a nightmare. Also I don't think Joe is a true leader, he isn't leading the country anywhere. He just happens to be in charge now or at least he thinks he is.
    Last edited by Wind, 19th June 2022 at 20:01.

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    Well, as much as I know how you hate me using the 'demon' word Aragorn...I think maybe it's time to complete his deal with the Devil.

    He can't, simply cannot, no way, no how to be allowed to hold the reins of power again. Talk about conspiracies? If a conspiracy is what it takes, I think there will be one on the books to get Trump. I can't, simply cannot, cannot accept that are enough people that are so oblivious to the reality that they would cast aside any reservations and vote for that demon-inspired dark soul again. If they do or would, we are truly done and only the grace of God would save democracy in the United States.

    This is no joke in my mind, the U.S. is at a future determining crossroads, just like this:


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    Senior Member Aianawa's Avatar
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    Maybe be this is incorrect, been seeing that mid term elections are safer than ever before with many changes happening around USA to stop anyone, any form, everyone ( so they say ) from cheating, well if Hilary and Trump both say the elections were stolen, both parties, there must be problems imo, so mid terms will be fairer for both parties now, yes ?. And with dems in power they may have a wee advantage but not sure of that.

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    Trumps stole was a plot, Hillary's stole was a metaphorical one. Trump's original underling... The FBI director was in charge of it.

    Quote Originally posted by Chuckie View Post
    Trumps stole was a plot, Hillary's stole was a metaphorical one. Trump's original underling... The FBI director was in charge of it.
    A world, a whole world of difference Aianawa. Not to be artificially conflated.

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    Quote Originally posted by Chuckie View Post
    Well, as much as I know how you hate me using the 'demon' word Aragorn...I think maybe it's time to complete his deal with the Devil.

    He can't, simply cannot, no way, no how to be allowed to hold the reins of power again. Talk about conspiracies? If a conspiracy is what it takes, I think there will be one on the books to get Trump. I can't, simply cannot, cannot accept that are enough people that are so oblivious to the reality that they would cast aside any reservations and vote for that demon-inspired dark soul again.
    Mass psychosis can do that, Chuckie. Don't forget that when Adolf Hitler was in control of Germany, most of the German population supported him, without of course knowing what he was really doing. And the same was true for Benito Mussolini — i.e. Donald Trump's previous incarnation — in Italy and Francisco Franco in Spain.

    There is however a major difference here with the three aforementioned dictators — all three of whom had come to power by way of a coup d'état, but it is not that which makes the difference, because after all, that is what Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani were attempting to do in the USA as well. No, the difference is that European countries have never ever been as insular in their culture as the American people are. And you really do have to take this seriously, because on average, US Americans know virtually nothing about the rest of the world, given that both the US education system and the corporate US media are shielding the American public from such influences.

    The result of this geopolitical isolation is that a great number of cultural, sociological and intellectual checks and balances are left out of the equation and that the "echo chamber" factor becomes much more significant, especially so in the more rural areas — read: the southern states, and the areas where the majority of the lesser-educated people reside. It is a given that such people will always be drawn more toward a populist — someone who "speaks their language".

    And of course, then there is yet another thing that has been playing into this, which is the whole QAnon hoax. Millions of US Americans took it for real — some still do — and even among those who eventually came to realize that it was all a hoax, there will be plenty of people with poor enough discernment skills who were and still are vulnerable to indoctrination and propaganda.

    The far-right has never been known for being intellectuals — anywhere in the world — but the one thing they've always been extremely clever in is the manipulation of the unwashed masses. And that is no different in this case. Donald Trump isn't exactly the brightest bulb in the box, but he certainly knows how to play people, and so did those two QAnon idiots.

    And that, my friend, is why this situation is so dangerous. Donald Trump should not be impeached — which wouldn't have any real-world effects anyway — but convicted of sedition and sent to prison, along with Rudy Giuliani and whoever else was involved in orchestrating the attempted coup. But alas, history has shown that committing or attempting to commit a coup d'état in the United States of America doesn't lead to any criminal conviction. After all, it has happened before, when then-senator Prescott Bush — father of George H. and grandfather of George W. and Jeb — attempted a coup d'état with the help of Wall Street and the US Navy in 1933-1934.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    This lays out some of the worst fallout. Judge Luttig, who testified last week, said that Trump and his minions are a Clear and Present Danger. This is a serious legal statement pointing to dire potential. The time for playing games is far gone. This is serious shit here.


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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Mass psychosis can do that, Chuckie. Don't forget that when Adolf Hitler was in control of Germany, most of the German population supported him, without of course knowing what he was really doing. And the same was true for Benito Mussolini — i.e. Donald Trump's previous incarnation — in Italy and Francisco Franco in Spain.
    Just as when the infamous name of AH 18 is brought into conversations, the ripe conditions in the Weimar Republic beckoning for such a man and a movement are almost exclusively ignored, it almost always focuses on how bad he was, and how vitally important it was to mobilize a good bit of the world to get rid of him. And that's it end of story. We like to savor that victory, but we don't like to think about how the Nazi movement lives on, the head was cut off, but the ideals live on and are as strong now as ever, even in places we consider "the good guys" like Ukraine.

    The same thing is happening here IMO. The ripe conditions that were all set in place to herald the dawn of a leader like Trump, and the movement he inspired, are almost 100% ignored in lieu of the mobilization to just get rid of the son of a bitch.

    Trump the man can be vanquished, but Americans who ignore what caused his meteoric rise in the first place, do so at their own peril. The ideals will live on if they remain unaddressed. Again...

    It's not just republican brains that were broken during this dizzying phenomena, and shitty excuses for why their candidate lost didn't just start in 2020, they started in 2016 in not believing that Trump won his presidential bid fair and square either. It couldn't possibly have been that Hillary Clinton was a terrible candidate, riding a campaign touting an uninspiring message at best, or the outright refusal of entrenched neo liberal left to do anything very substantive for the American people as they wined and dined with Wall Street executives, and fed the war machine right alongside their counterparts.

    Nope, they'll never admit that they lost their own election fair and square, much less entertain the horrific thought that even a tiny little bit of the loss may be due to a fault of their own. That's crazy talk. They were doing a fantastic job, everybody loved them, but then Vladimir Putin got in their way and inserted his puppet right there in they're midst. That, was the one and only reason they lost, a stolen election.

    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    The result of this geopolitical isolation is that a great number of cultural, sociological and intellectual checks and balances are left out of the equation and that the "echo chamber" factor becomes much more significant, especially so in the more rural areas — read: the southern states, and the areas where the majority of the lesser-educated people reside. It is a given that such people will always be drawn more toward a populist — someone who "speaks their language".
    So the people in rural areas are only half the problem, their counterparts in urban and suburban areas have "FUCK TRUMP" and "FUCK PUTIN" branded into their brains, and can see little else beyond that. They're blinded by rage, brains broken just like the Trump gang but in a different way. Two broken brains going at it like an inbred family that's been hitting the booze before appearing on the old Jerry Springer Show.

    Donald Trump is only the symptom of a very big problem festering here, and getting rid of him will solve nothing, the problem is still there and will only keep building up pressure towards the blowing points while they dance with glee over his shallow grave.

    Another Trump will emerge from the far Right proving ground because the original problem will never be sought after, much less be diagnosed, and the next incarnation might just make the neo libs start wishing for the good old days of the Orange Haired Jesus again.

    And I'm stuck right here in the middle of this shit show.

    Thank god we live out in the woods anyway. Where the birds sing pretty songs as the garden pushes up nutrition.
    Last edited by Fred Steeves, 20th June 2022 at 17:57.
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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    Just as when the infamous name of AH 18 is brought into conversations, the ripe conditions in the Weimar Republic beckoning for such a man and a movement are almost exclusively ignored, it almost always focuses on how bad he was, and how vitally important it was to mobilize a good bit of the world to get rid of him. And that's it end of story. We like to savor that victory, but we don't like to think about how the Nazi movement lives on, the head was cut off, but the ideals live on and are as strong now as ever, even in places we consider "the good guys" like Ukraine.

    The same thing is happening here IMO. The ripe conditions that were all set in place to herald the dawn of a leader like Trump, and the movement he inspired, are almost 100% ignored in lieu of the mobilization to just get rid of the son of a bitch.

    Trump the man can be vanquished, but Americans who ignore what caused his meteoric rise in the first place, do so at their own peril. The ideals will live on if they remain unaddressed. Again...
    Yes, but just because I didn't address this little bit in my above-quoted post does not mean that I wouldn't be well aware of that, Fred. As the matter of fact, I've been saying this for a very long time already, but the problem is that as long as one keeps on siding up with either the Democrats or the Republicans, things are never going to change.

    If anything, the fact that Trump beat Hillary in 2016 was due to the 2016 election being a choice between two despicable evils, because Hillary is just as much a sociopath as Donald Trump is. She lied, she admitted to being two-faced — different stories between what she told the masses and what she told the corporate world — and she openly and gleefully cheered how the US was (co-)responsible for the death of Gaddafi. "We came, we saw, and he died", remember?

    One would have thought that after four years of Orange Jesus™, the Democrats would have learned their lesson and changed their ways. But no, the best the DNC could come up with was pretend Trump never happened and return to the same old corporate-globalist and American-Exceptionalist agenda they've been pushing for decades.

    All of the genuinely progressive candidates and even some of the less progressive ones had their arms twisted behind their backs until they had to bail out. The only one who held on until the last moment — just as when he was running against Hillary for nomination — was Bernie Sanders, and the DNC was going to let hell freeze over before they'd ever let Bernie run for president. So that was the second time they stabbed Bernie in the back. But the DNC had already decided that it was going to be old-school Joe Biden and no one else. They missed the boat again, and with it, they provided the far-right with even more fodder.

    The problem is that both parties promote the insularity of US American culture, and as such, they are by definition generating a never-ending, inbred strife between the adherents of either party.

    But that all said, the above is not the issue of this thread. This thread is about Trump's coup d'état, concretely, and it's not because US politics is fucked up that Orange Jesus™ should not be held accountable for what he did, any more than that you could blame the Holocaust on the poor decisions of the Weimar Republic and let Adolf Hitler off the hook in the same breath.

    There's an abominable socio-political problem on the one hand, and there's a man who tried to overturn democracy and crown himself to king on the other hand. My post above was about the latter, as I had already amply addressed the former.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  27. #149
    Senior Member Lord Sidious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    aforementioned dictators — all three of whom had come to power by way of a coup d'état,
    Incorrectomundo
    Hitler was elected, then appointed chancellor by President Hindenburg.
    Ní siocháin go saoirse

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  29. #150
    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Lord Sidious View Post
    Incorrectomundo
    Hitler was elected, then appointed chancellor by President Hindenburg.
    You are correct. I was thinking of how he had attempted a coup d"état earlier, for which he was arrested.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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