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Thread: Racism

  1. #1
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    Racism

    Race, racism and racialism have all been in the news lately and it got me wondering. Is racism, or in other words, discrimination by race, ever justified?

    I live in a comfortably racist society, where most people casually hold racist views that would shock people from other cultures. In other words, most people here are not only racist, but comfortable with their racism and treat it as matter-of-fact that people from other races are not only discriminated against, but this is how it should be. Don’t get me wrong, there’s very little actual violence against people from other racial backgrounds (unlike in the US, Brazil or South Africa), but people accept it as fully natural and just a fact of life that some races are more equal than others.

    We have a particular issue here with discrimination against the Roma, who are an untouchable (Dalit) nomadic ethnic group that migrated from South Asia many centuries ago. They were heavily discriminated against even in their original homeland and still are today, even more so than in Europe actually. Endless studies were done and many initiatives launched to try and integrate this nomadic group into mainstream society, but by-and-large, they have failed. Some cities have built walls to try and segregate Roma areas from „white” ones and no sane Hungarian parent would want their children to go to a school with a heavy Roma presence. The problems of trying to integrate US blacks into mainstream society seem to face similar hurdles. In Singapore, integrating Muslim Malays into Chinese-majority institutions has proven similarly challenging and unsuccessful.

    Ethnic or racial quotas don’t seem to work and just create resentment from other racial groups. Positive discrimination towards one group necessarily entails negative discrimination towards another, by way of simple arithmetics. In the US, Asians seem to suffer from this type of discrimination quite heavily and before them it was Jews that were discriminated against in this way, by setting ethnic quotas that were designed to reduce their presence, particularly in Ivy-League universities.

    So, in other words, the issue is this:

    Should some ethnic groups be punished for their success (chiefly Jews, Asians and Europeans), so that other ethnic and / or racial groups can be rewarded for their failure? Is this an ethical thing to do?

    I would welcome your input and thoughts on this issue.

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    Member on Sabbatical Catsquotl's Avatar
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    Here's a little something I wrote this morning.

    ________
    Ok so human beings can be differentiated in terms of race, gender, IQ, upper body muscle strength, length of there big toe etc etc.

    I hope everybody here will come to the conclusion that although every human being is different, unique and an individual who most likely just wants to have some peace, some fun, experiences of beauty, wonder and feel loved.

    How do we build a society in which every one can feel equally worthy.
    An argument I am hearing lately is that the freedoms of western society today are that this society will reward anyone who is capable of contributing to society based on their skills.
    I feel this is where so called inequality comes from. Not race or one of the others but the idea that I deserve more, because of my contribution to society or some foolish notion like that.

    The idea of pulling oneself up by his bootstraps and build something of value for themselves( over the backs of someone else which is usually forgotten) is ludicrous to me.
    The self made man/woman. ridiculous..

    We all need each other (even when we think we don't)

    Inequality, racism and whatever dichotomy one can think of exists, even in some institutions so The word systemic can be bastardized in such contexts.
    But again...

    Where to go from here and start "rewarding" people for being people instead of what they bring to the table..
    At least to some level the can stop struggling and fighting to make ends meet.

    And this alas will mean that we have to think long and hard as a society what luxurious goods we really need, which of them cause suffering. and be ready to give them up at some point..

    WIth Love
    Eelco
    Have a great day today

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    Quote Originally posted by Catsquotl View Post
    Here's a little something I wrote this morning.

    ________
    Ok so human beings can be differentiated in terms of race, gender, IQ, upper body muscle strength, length of there big toe etc etc.

    I hope everybody here will come to the conclusion that although every human being is different, unique and an individual who most likely just wants to have some peace, some fun, experiences of beauty, wonder and feel loved.

    How do we build a society in which every one can feel equally worthy.
    An argument I am hearing lately is that the freedoms of western society today are that this society will reward anyone who is capable of contributing to society based on their skills.
    I feel this is where so called inequality comes from. Not race or one of the others but the idea that I deserve more, because of my contribution to society or some foolish notion like that.

    The idea of pulling oneself up by his bootstraps and build something of value for themselves( over the backs of someone else which is usually forgotten) is ludicrous to me.
    The self made man/woman. ridiculous..

    We all need each other (even when we think we don't)

    Inequality, racism and whatever dichotomy one can think of exists, even in some institutions so The word systemic can be bastardized in such contexts.
    But again...

    Where to go from here and start "rewarding" people for being people instead of what they bring to the table..
    At least to some level the can stop struggling and fighting to make ends meet.

    And this alas will mean that we have to think long and hard as a society what luxurious goods we really need, which of them cause suffering. and be ready to give them up at some point..

    WIth Love
    Eelco
    It seems the dichotomy you are pointing out here is between Capitalism vs Socialism as well as Collectivism vs Individualism. I believe a balance between these opposing forces can be achieved. European social democracies, such as Denmark, are actually quite close to achieving some sort of stable equilibrium and thus social harmony, combined with prosperity. But that leaves aside the topic of race and ethnicity as Denmark is mostly homogenuous. It is much more difficult to achieve this in ethnically and racially diverse, multicultural societies. Singapore is probably closest, but it is actually Chinese-dominated and has utilised all the powers and tools of authoritarianism to achieve it.

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    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Here is what I see as the major flaw in your conjecture Chris and is a bad place to start a discussion:

    "Punished for success" ... I agree with Cats thought about how we judge human value ... Some people have money, some people don't, but all people have value. Roma as you point out are of South Asian origin but aren't many South Asians 'successful' ... I'll give my straight truth here. I've worked with many East Asians and South Asians over time and I can tell you that generally the South Asians will kick the East Asians ass. Straight truth. What is the biggest difference between East Asians and South Asians? From your perspective Chris, it is skin tone.

    Did you ever watch those videos I posted in the Chaos thread regarding the evolution of human categorization and how the signifying differences changed from cultural to biological. Those videos are extremely worthwhile.

    The point is that culture can be changed, biology cannot.
    Last edited by NotAPretender, 10th July 2020 at 13:50.
    “If you cannot do great things, do small things in a great way.”

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    Member on Sabbatical Catsquotl's Avatar
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    I am really thinking globally.
    Now I am not a scholar, but it seems to me that the so called wealth over here in the west(which includes Denmark) has been slowly amassed over the backs of so called 3d world countries.

    Racism has been a great part of how this was achieved. Religion another.

    For myself I am by no means holier than the pope and do enjoy many a luxury denied to many.

    Still equality based for every human being on earth to me seems the only cause worth fighting. However when zooming out to encompass such a task one would quickly realize we need the plant and animal kingdoms to thrive as well...
    Have a great day today

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    Senior Member Lord Sidious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    It seems the dichotomy you are pointing out here is between Capitalism vs Socialism as well as Collectivism vs Individualism. I believe a balance between these opposing forces can be achieved. European social democracies, such as Denmark, are actually quite close to achieving some sort of stable equilibrium and thus social harmony, combined with prosperity. But that leaves aside the topic of race and ethnicity as Denmark is mostly homogenuous. It is much more difficult to achieve this in ethnically and racially diverse, multicultural societies. Singapore is probably closest, but it is actually Chinese-dominated and has utilised all the powers and tools of authoritarianism to achieve it.
    Danmark isn't as homogenous as you might think, but hey, it all still works.
    Is Danmark
    Is good..............

    Oh as for the premise, the answer isn't equality, but equity
    Ní siocháin go saoirse

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    Member on Sabbatical Catsquotl's Avatar
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    Equality, equity.

    Same same

    It's one of those nuance things which I regularly forget.
    But equity is the way we perceive and value others correct?
    Equality more the ability to have access to the same stuff?
    Last edited by Catsquotl, 10th July 2020 at 18:09.
    Have a great day today

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    Quote Originally posted by Catsquotl View Post
    Equality, equity.

    Same same

    It's one of those nuance things which I regularly forget.
    But equity is the way we perceive and value others correct?
    Equality more the ability to have access to the same stuff?
    Source: The Free Dictionary


    eq·ui·ty
    n. pl. eq·ui·ties

    1. The state or quality of being just and fair.
    2. Something that is just and fair.
    3. Law
    a. Justice achieved not simply according to the strict letter of the law but in accordance with principles of substantial justice and the unique facts of the case.
    b. See court of equity.
    c. An equitable right or claim: an analysis of the equities and inequities brought about by the current trade bill.
    4.
    a. Ownership interest in a corporation, property, or other holding, usually calculated as the value of the holding after subtracting any debt or liabilities.
    b. equities Shares of common stock or preferred stock.
    5. The value of a brand's reputation.


    adj.

    1. Representing an ownership interest: an equity stake.
    2. Of or relating to stocks: an equity mutual fund.
    3. Subordinated to all other claims on income, earnings, or assets: the equity tranche.


    Source: The Free Dictionary
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Hey that's pretty good, and perhaps a way to re-frame the old argument.
    “If you cannot do great things, do small things in a great way.”

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    Quote Originally posted by Catsquotl View Post
    I am really thinking globally.
    Now I am not a scholar, but it seems to me that the so called wealth over here in the west(which includes Denmark) has been slowly amassed over the backs of so called 3d world countries.

    Racism has been a great part of how this was achieved. Religion another.

    For myself I am by no means holier than the pope and do enjoy many a luxury denied to many.

    Still equality based for every human being on earth to me seems the only cause worth fighting. However when zooming out to encompass such a task one would quickly realize we need the plant and animal kingdoms to thrive as well...
    I'm not so sure about that.

    It is a common trope of the Left, but the evidence for it is thin on the ground. Other factors seem far more important in creating wealth and the richest countries in the world didn't have much of a colonial empire. You could say that the one European country that still has extensive colonial possessions is Russia and yet it is relatively poor.

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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    Here is what I see as the major flaw in your conjecture Chris and is a bad place to start a discussion:

    "Punished for success" ... I agree with Cats thought about how we judge human value ... Some people have money, some people don't, but all people have value. Roma as you point out are of South Asian origin but aren't many South Asians 'successful' ... I'll give my straight truth here. I've worked with many East Asians and South Asians over time and I can tell you that generally the South Asians will kick the East Asians ass. Straight truth. What is the biggest difference between East Asians and South Asians? From your perspective Chris, it is skin tone.
    I beg to differ.

    I've lived in both India (South Asia) and Singapore (Southeast Asia, but with a majority East Asian population).

    Skin tone is a signifier of the climactic conditions under which a population has originally evolved and that certainly has a lasting effect overall.

    The point about the Roma I was trying to make is that they don't exactly fit in in South Asia either. They are Dalits or Untouchables and they can't even drink from the same well as those of a higher caste. In India, caste and race often run parallel to each other and it is probably the most racist society on earth. They are actually the ones obsessed with skin tone and this is a general problem in Asia, where a lighter skin tone is supposed to signify beauty, wealth, status and even godliness.

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    Senior Member Lord Sidious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Catsquotl View Post
    Equality, equity.

    Same same

    It's one of those nuance things which I regularly forget.
    But equity is the way we perceive and value others correct?
    Equality more the ability to have access to the same stuff?
    Vastly different.
    See attached pic for details.
    Ní siocháin go saoirse

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    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    I beg to differ.

    I've lived in both India (South Asia) and Singapore (Southeast Asia, but with a majority East Asian population).

    Skin tone is a signifier of the climactic conditions under which a population has originally evolved and that certainly has a lasting effect overall.

    The point about the Roma I was trying to make is that they don't exactly fit in in South Asia either. They are Dalits or Untouchables and they can't even drink from the same well as those of a higher caste. In India, caste and race often run parallel to each other and it is probably the most racist society on earth. They are actually the ones obsessed with skin tone and this is a general problem in Asia, where a lighter skin tone is supposed to signify beauty, wealth, status and even godliness.
    Russia is a relative latecomer to the game of owning the world. They missed their window of opportunity as those days are long gone. It doesn't seem to stop them from trying though, but there was until Trump too much opposition to them doing so.

    Some of my Chinese female friends were frightening in their pallor. They almost looked like they needed a blood transfusion. They didn't seem to mind, though.

    None of this is new to me Chris ... one is either okay with miscegenation or one is not. As you described your home environment, it has parallels to small town America, really just provincialism and a fear of difference.
    “If you cannot do great things, do small things in a great way.”

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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    Russia is a relative latecomer to the game of owning the world. They missed their window of opportunity as those days are long gone. It doesn't seem to stop them from trying though, but there was until Trump too much opposition to them doing so.

    Some of my Chinese female friends were frightening in their pallor. They almost looked like they needed a blood transfusion. They didn't seem to mind, though.

    None of this is new to me Chris ... one is either okay with miscegenation or one is not. As you described your home environment, it has parallels to small town America, really just provincialism and a fear of difference.
    What I meant was that Russia still owns and controls North Asia, including the indigenous people that live there and is still a hegemon in Central Asia, where it was the colonial overlord for centuries. It has no more business being in North Asia than Britain had being in India. Like I said, Russia is the last remaining European Colonial Power, even if much weakened.

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    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    ok ...
    “If you cannot do great things, do small things in a great way.”

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