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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    For what it's worth, I am as ecological as I can be, I don't trash and I try to recycle things. I hate seeing things going wasted.

    I would hope that people woulds stop trashing and polluting the Earth.
    Amen to that...
    “To seek self-knowledge is to embark on a journey which ... will always be incomplete" - courtesy of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

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    When Americans refer to 'the left,' I don't know what they mean exactly. In terms of political parties the R's and D's both lean to the right. The nutty university justice warrior preoccupations of people who are certifiably insane aren't traditionally liberal at all. They are the flip side of the same coin and have a dictatorial bent, as well.

    I liked the part of Jordan Peterson, that called that out for what it was. But I don't appreciate him holding forth as an expert on subjects he doesn't have expertise in. And climate is one of them. He is an Albertan and his buddies are, no doubt, people who are ceo's of oil companies.

    That is very likenly where he is getting his information. When it comes to big issues, I try to do at least cursory research on anybody who's point of view is gaining traction. If their bio is 'clean' I am more inclined to pay attention. Peterson's professional bio is 'clean' enough, but his background--where he grew up, who he hung out with, etc...probably not. There's too much money rattling around there.

    As far as Canada going kind of looney lately, under Trudeau...that's an exaggeration. Trudeau is a weird guy and typical politician, but he has done okay, steering the country through some terrible times. The knives are out for him though, and mainstream media is not necessarily on his side.

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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    So here we are again. Jordan Peterson doesn’t believe that climate change is the end of the world as we know it, so therefore he’s a dangerous and irresponsible human being.

    And supposedly it’s only the Right that likes to create boogie men?

    This is the classic either/or fame of mind: either he believes as we do, or he’s dangerous. One of “them”.
    People, often on the left, who are rigid ecologists, with a plants and animals first and f*** people, philosophy, are dangerous too. They create boogeymen out of the average person, just trying to get by, and bury that 'enemy' in red tape when they are trying to start a business, build a house, etc...The answer, imo is to honor people and the natural world simultaneously, while being as objective as possible about climate. It's a tough row to hoe. No easy answers there and is one issue that has angled small business owners, builders etc...towards Trump. It's understandable.

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    Quote Originally posted by Octopus Garden View Post
    People, often on the left, who are rigid ecologists, with a plants and animals first and f*** people, philosophy, are dangerous too. They create boogeymen out of the average person, just trying to get by, and bury that 'enemy' in red tape when they are trying to start a business, build a house, etc...The answer, imo is to honor people and the natural world simultaneously, while being as objective as possible about climate. It's a tough row to hoe. No easy answers there and is one issue that has angled small business owners, builders etc...towards Trump. It's understandable.
    True OG but they are in the minority ... despite how much I have tried in the past one cannot paint a single political party into the category of dysfunctional mental types. But if we look from what some might call a helicopter view (or maybe Wind would prefer a drone's eye view) the predominance is on one side. And there is a reason for it and it's not intelligence nor values nor anything else that would expose a coherent motivation. And that my OG is the answer to the question.
    “To seek self-knowledge is to embark on a journey which ... will always be incomplete" - courtesy of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

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    Both parties are dysfunctional, imo. It can be broken down pretty easily. What Americans refer to as liberals, control the East and West coasts and a smattering of fly over counties, depending on their demographic make up.

    The white and black professional class, who are employees rather than self employed, vote Democrat.

    The self employed, trades people, Mom and Pop shop vote more republican. They are on the front lines when it comes to dealing with local state and federal bureaucrats. The laws that they have to obey are one size fits all, frequently and it is beyond frustrating.

    So, the way I look at it (and tried without much success on Avalon,) is this-- its not so much that Trump supporters are wrong in being furious about a number of issues, it was simply that Trump is not the guy who is going to fix it for them. He's a typical manipulative populist, with tremendous support from big money interest. And they are salivating, itching for complete control. And I have no doubt, that barring divine intervention, they will get it.

    If the Dems were truly liberal, in spirit, they would have cut military budgets in half by now, institutedmedicare for all. No liberal politician would object to , on establishing an iron clad rule that bars congress from having brokerage accounts. That's state sanctioned insider trading.

    Anyway, I have a migraine aura right now, BB so I am having trouble reading. Will read what you wrote more thoroughly later when I can see properly. Am writing e through a haze of sparkles that don't have the decency to become proper kaledscopic patters.

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    Quote Originally posted by Octopus Garden View Post
    If the Dems were truly liberal, in spirit, they would have cut military budgets in half by now, institutedmedicare for all. No liberal politician would object to , on establishing an iron clad rule that bars congress from having brokerage accounts. That's state sanctioned insider trading.
    QED: Marianne Williamson ran for Democratic Presidential Nominee on exactly those points, and she was the first one to get pushed out of the race by the DNC. They would sooner have consented to letting Bernie Sanders run against Trump than Marianne, and we all know what they did to Bernie.

    Bernie Sanders saw the other candidates ─ who were by far not as progressive as Marianne ─ fall one by one, and he decided that he was going to hold on until the last moment. But of course, he never stood a chance, because the DNC hated him ─ they had already agreed to all vote against him as Democratic Nominee unless he could gather an absolute majority vote, which they knew he couldn't.

    The DNC wanted a status quo candidate to run against Trump, because they wanted to return to the status quo ruling of the USA as it had existed before Trump. That's why they chose Biden. And with that, it was the second time that they fucked Bernie over, because they had also already forced him to concede to Hillary Clinton in the run-up for the 2016 elections.

    The DNC will never allow a truly progressive candidate to run for office. A semi-African American, yes. A woman, yes. Hell, if push comes to shove, they'll even support an LGBTQ+ candidate ─ which is a subject the Democrats have somehow always had a strange fixation with. But they will never ─ repeat: never ─ consent to supporting someone who would overturn the very fabric of the American corporate-globalist empire and its beloved military-industrial complex.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Quote Originally posted by Octopus Garden View Post
    Both parties are dysfunctional, imo. It can be broken down pretty easily. What Americans refer to as liberals, control the East and West coasts and a smattering of fly over counties, depending on their demographic make up.

    The white and black professional class, who are employees rather than self employed, vote Democrat.

    The self employed, trades people, Mom and Pop shop vote more republican. They are on the front lines when it comes to dealing with local state and federal bureaucrats. The laws that they have to obey are one size fits all, frequently and it is beyond frustrating.

    So, the way I look at it (and tried without much success on Avalon,) is this-- its not so much that Trump supporters are wrong in being furious about a number of issues, it was simply that Trump is not the guy who is going to fix it for them. He's a typical manipulative populist, with tremendous support from big money interest. And they are salivating, itching for complete control. And I have no doubt, that barring divine intervention, they will get it.

    If the Dems were truly liberal, in spirit, they would have cut military budgets in half by now, institutedmedicare for all. No liberal politician would object to , on establishing an iron clad rule that bars congress from having brokerage accounts. That's state sanctioned insider trading.

    Anyway, I have a migraine aura right now, BB so I am having trouble reading. Will read what you wrote more thoroughly later when I can see properly. Am writing e through a haze of sparkles that don't have the decency to become proper kaledscopic patters.
    I have that same problem with Ocular migraines. Actually, that is a pretty good analysis of American political stances that one doesn't often see. Historically it was a matter of white collar elitists and blue collar whites as hateful Republicans and 'other' blue collars as basically not involved and hiding behind any cover they could find to shield their otherness. But as we know times change. The hateful blue collars became 'Libertarians', the white collar middle tier became concerned Demos, and the others came out of the closet. So, in effect, everyone is pissed off. I understand... I've been to the Department of Motor Vehicles and caused more than one ruckus. In truth, congress is congress and they take care of their kind, just as you will find labor union officials doing the same, small business can and should hook into all the tax dodges that their political brethren have instituted over the years.

    Insofar, as you are correct about Trump, he is a psychopathic conman, the unfortunate byproduct of frustration is the propensity to lash out at those that are sometimes not even remotely connected to their frustration. And it happens most often that the 'other' is the scapegoat. Repubs use that and it is sinister, immoral, and works wonderfully to spread an overarching dysfunction of thought and deed.

    Depending on one's philosophical leanings (sometimes in people their are no guiding philosophical principles) political dysfunction can be viewed as it's everybody fault, in my estimation if one zooms in from the helicopter view and applies 'root cause' analysis, it does emerge that the Hegelian Dialectic is the rule that guides and forms the product. And then one can apply a personal analysis and either face the reality or not. But all that said you hit an important point. Despite all the differing views, there are major categories of thought: helicopter view and root cause analyis and it is possible and often ,in fact, the two views provide very different looks.

    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    QED: Marianne Williamson ran for Democratic Presidential Nominee on exactly those points, and she was the first one to get pushed out of the race by the DNC. They would sooner have consented to letting Bernie Sanders run against Trump than Marianne, and we all know what they did to Bernie.

    Bernie Sanders saw the other candidates ─ who were by far not as progressive as Marianne ─ fall one by one, and he decided that he was going to hold on until the last moment. But of course, he never stood a chance, because the DNC hated him ─ they had already agreed to all vote against him as Democratic Nominee unless he could gather an absolute majority vote, which they knew he couldn't.

    The DNC wanted a status quo candidate to run against Trump, because they wanted to return to the status quo ruling of the USA as it had existed before Trump. That's why they chose Biden. And with that, it was the second time that they fucked Bernie over, because they had also already forced him to concede to Hillary Clinton in the run-up for the 2016 elections.

    The DNC will never allow a truly progressive candidate to run for office. A semi-African American, yes. A woman, yes. Hell, if push comes to shove, they'll even support an LGBTQ+ candidate ─ which is a subject the Democrats have somehow always had a strange fixation with. But they will never ─ repeat: never ─ consent to supporting someone who would overturn the very fabric of the American corporate-globalist empire and its beloved military-industrial complex.
    They don't want Aragorn, they are compelled to run that kind of candidate to stand a ghost of a chance of survival. As you've pointed out, Americans are crypto-cultural retards. Americans, en toto, will not tolerate anyone that isn't one of them. Dems have to compromise in deference to the Hegelian Dialectic. They have no choice, witness the current state with Democratic cultural retards Manchin and Sinema.
    “To seek self-knowledge is to embark on a journey which ... will always be incomplete" - courtesy of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

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    Quote Originally posted by BeastOfBologna View Post
    I have that same problem with Ocular migraines. Actually, that is a pretty good analysis of American political stances that one doesn't often see. Historically it was a matter of white collar elitists and blue collar whites as hateful Republicans and 'other' blue collars as basically not involved and hiding behind any cover they could find to shield their otherness. But as we know times change. The hateful blue collars became 'Libertarians', the white collar middle tier became concerned Demos, and the others came out of the closet. So, in effect, everyone is pissed off. I understand... I've been to the Department of Motor Vehicles and caused more than one ruckus. In truth, congress is congress and they take care of their kind, just as you will find labor union officials doing the same, small business can and should hook into all the tax dodges that their political brethren have instituted over the years.

    Insofar, as you are correct about Trump, he is a psychopathic conman, the unfortunate byproduct of frustration is the propensity to lash out at those that are sometimes not even remotely connected to their frustration. And it happens most often that the 'other' is the scapegoat. Repubs use that and it is sinister, immoral, and works wonderfully to spread an overarching dysfunction of thought and deed.

    Depending on one's philosophical leanings (sometimes in people their are no guiding philosophical principles) political dysfunction can be viewed as it's everybody fault, in my estimation if one zooms in from the helicopter view and applies 'root cause' analysis, it does emerge that the Hegelian Dialectic is the rule that guides and forms the product. And then one can apply a personal analysis and either face the reality or not. But all that said you hit an important point. Despite all the differing views, there are major categories of thought: helicopter view and root cause analyis and it is possible and often ,in fact, the two views provide very different looks.



    They don't want Aragorn, they are compelled to run that kind of candidate to stand a ghost of a chance of survival. As you've pointed out, Americans are crypto-cultural retards. Americans, en toto, will not tolerate anyone that isn't one of them. Dems have to compromise in deference to the Hegelian Dialectic. They have no choice, witness the current state with Democratic cultural retards Manchin and Sinema.
    In my morning short meditative interlude something occurred to me: The Hegelian Dialectic is a full-blown dynamic in the American two-party system. The youngest generation has an intuitive understanding of that and it is perhaps why they are enamored of a one-party system, a three-party system, or a no-party system at all.
    “To seek self-knowledge is to embark on a journey which ... will always be incomplete" - courtesy of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

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    Quote Originally posted by BeastOfBologna View Post
    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    QED: Marianne Williamson ran for Democratic Presidential Nominee on exactly those points, and she was the first one to get pushed out of the race by the DNC. They would sooner have consented to letting Bernie Sanders run against Trump than Marianne, and we all know what they did to Bernie.

    Bernie Sanders saw the other candidates ─ who were by far not as progressive as Marianne ─ fall one by one, and he decided that he was going to hold on until the last moment. But of course, he never stood a chance, because the DNC hated him ─ they had already agreed to all vote against him as Democratic Nominee unless he could gather an absolute majority vote, which they knew he couldn't.

    The DNC wanted a status quo candidate to run against Trump, because they wanted to return to the status quo ruling of the USA as it had existed before Trump. That's why they chose Biden. And with that, it was the second time that they fucked Bernie over, because they had also already forced him to concede to Hillary Clinton in the run-up for the 2016 elections.

    The DNC will never allow a truly progressive candidate to run for office. A semi-African American, yes. A woman, yes. Hell, if push comes to shove, they'll even support an LGBTQ+ candidate ─ which is a subject the Democrats have somehow always had a strange fixation with. But they will never ─ repeat: never ─ consent to supporting someone who would overturn the very fabric of the American corporate-globalist empire and its beloved military-industrial complex.
    They don't want Aragorn, they are compelled to run that kind of candidate to stand a ghost of a chance of survival. As you've pointed out, Americans are crypto-cultural retards. Americans, en toto, will not tolerate anyone that isn't one of them.
    But Marianne Williamson is one of them. She's a born and bred US American citizen, and she's a member of the Democratic Party. The same goes for Bernie Sanders.

    No, it's the elite-run corporate-imperialist structure with its military-industrial right arm that they wanted to return to. As Abby Martin has once famously said, "The Republicans and the Democrats run on different agenda points and have different methodologies, but whoever wins the elections doesn't matter, because the policy never changes." Or something to that effect ─ I'm not sure anymore whether she said it in one of the Empire Files videos or when she still had her "Breaking The Set" show on RT.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    But Marianne Williamson is one of them. She's a born and bred US American citizen, and she's a member of the Democratic Party. The same goes for Bernie Sanders.

    No, it's the elite-run corporate-imperialist structure with its military-industrial right arm that they wanted to return to. As Abby Martin has once famously said, "The Republicans and the Democrats run on different agenda points and have different methodologies, but whoever wins the elections doesn't matter, because the policy never changes." Or something to that effect ─ I'm not sure anymore whether she said it in one of the Empire Files videos or when she still had her "Breaking The Set" show on RT.
    I'm sympathetic to your viewpoint Aragorn, but I need to impress upon you that Marianne Williamson is decidedly 'not' representative of most anything mainstream American. She is an intelligent, thoughtful, spiritually enlightened human being. Does that sound like an American to you? Bernie is much closer and if you think about it, it could explain why he is a much stronger force in Democratic leftist politics, but even at that he is an outlier and it is why he has failed. In retrospect, I have to agree that Dems missed a golden opportunity to pit Bernie against Trump. History could have been much different and we could be on the verge of socialism instead of Nazism. But even that is representative of a wider arc of inertia. Hillary had history, connections, decades of supporters that lived to counter the right's demonization of her. All the dominos were in place for the big fall and it happened.
    “To seek self-knowledge is to embark on a journey which ... will always be incomplete" - courtesy of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

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    Quote Originally posted by Octopus Garden View Post
    Both parties are dysfunctional, imo. It can be broken down pretty easily. What Americans refer to as liberals, control the East and West coasts and a smattering of fly over counties, depending on their demographic make up.

    The white and black professional class, who are employees rather than self employed, vote Democrat.

    The self employed, trades people, Mom and Pop shop vote more republican. They are on the front lines when it comes to dealing with local state and federal bureaucrats. The laws that they have to obey are one size fits all, frequently and it is beyond frustrating.

    So, the way I look at it (and tried without much success on Avalon,) is this-- its not so much that Trump supporters are wrong in being furious about a number of issues, it was simply that Trump is not the guy who is going to fix it for them. He's a typical manipulative populist, with tremendous support from big money interest. And they are salivating, itching for complete control. And I have no doubt, that barring divine intervention, they will get it.

    If the Dems were truly liberal, in spirit, they would have cut military budgets in half by now, institutedmedicare for all. No liberal politician would object to , on establishing an iron clad rule that bars congress from having brokerage accounts. That's state sanctioned insider trading.

    Anyway, I have a migraine aura right now, BB so I am having trouble reading. Will read what you wrote more thoroughly later when I can see properly. Am writing e through a haze of sparkles that don't have the decency to become proper kaledscopic patters.
    That's a really interesting summation, so to speak, of America. Reality doesn't break down so neatly that way but it's an interesting framework to look through.

    You're right about Trump not being the man who will fix their problems. He doesn't give a shit about their problems. Only their vote, their donations (which continue automatically unless you say otherwise) and their anger at their fellow Americans.

    All authoritarians know that if you keep folks angry and fighting each other you get to grasp and keep power. Trump knew which team would let him get away with it.

    I hearkens back to what my brother told me in the Gingrich years. "The only difference between Republicans and Democrats is that Republicans get away with it." When I asked what, he replied, "It doesn't matter. They don't get caught."

    That's because they don't hold each other responsible. The numero uno Republexcuse (a term I coined decades ago) is liberal, progressive, or Democrat. The only question is which word gets the most punch.

    Trump knew exactly what he was doing. And he projected his plans to steal the next election for four years straight.

    One team thinks it's A-OK. The other doesn't. That's one very important difference.

    Jordan Peterson has taken sides with reality. And combined with his curmudgeon attitude, he's not thinking straight either, imo.

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    If the Democrats want to challenge Trump again then they will have to have a better candidate than Biden.

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    Don't have too much to add, other than, lest we forget, the federal state and local prison system saw its grandest expansion under Clinton, with the three strikes law.

    He also deregulated the financial industry, setting the stage for the economic collapse of 2008. And let's not forget his dismantling of the rules concerning concentration of ownership within media. The DEMOCRATS created this weird duopoly in the media, that you can't go anywhere but social media to escape from. And now social media is beyond mirroring that dynamic. But it really took off under Clinton.

    Among other things, the bill brought deregulation to the cable industry and lifted the national cap on radio station ownership. It also eased the rules that apply to broadcasters.

    https://thehill.com/policy/technolog...enty-years-lat

    Prison Industrial Complex and Clintons

    Some in the Black Lives Matter movement have blamed that provision for mass incarceration

    https://www.factcheck.org/2016/04/bi...94-crime-bill/

    Deregulation of financial industry

    https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...ng-do-financi/

    I watch what pols do, not what they say, or the image they present.
    Last edited by Octopus Garden, 28th January 2022 at 20:23.

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    Back to Jordan Peterson's climate claims:

    The source for author Jordan Peterson’s recent claim that climate change cannot be modelled was a climate science denier who received money from a libertarian think tank funded by oil companies.

    https://www.desmog.com/2022/01/28/jo...ed-think-tank/

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    Quote Originally posted by Octopus Garden View Post
    Don't have too much to add, other than, lest we forget, the federal state and local prison system saw its grandest expansion under Clinton, with the three strikes law.

    He also deregulated the financial industry, setting the stage for the economic collapse of 2008. And let's not forget his dismantling of the rules concerning concentration of ownership within media. The DEMOCRATS created this weird duopoly in the media, that you can't go anywhere but social media to escape from. And now social media is beyond mirroring that dynamic. But it really took off under Clinton.

    Among other things, the bill brought deregulation to the cable industry and lifted the national cap on radio station ownership. It also eased the rules that apply to broadcasters.

    https://thehill.com/policy/technolog...enty-years-lat

    Prison Industrial Complex and Clintons

    Some in the Black Lives Matter movement have blamed that provision for mass incarceration

    https://www.factcheck.org/2016/04/bi...94-crime-bill/

    Deregulation of financial industry

    https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...ng-do-financi/

    I watch what pols do, not what they say, or the image they present.
    Well, we have the Hegelian Dialectic at work in my opinion. I can't verify that what you stated is completely accurate, But ... I think those moves were meant to be compromises and those that would took unbridled advantage to gouge those in need ... very nice work. The same thing happened with international trade agreements. They start with good intentions and to devolve to the usual hell on Earth. He was sorry about many of the things he compromised on when the reality came clear that he had been had in a major way. During his tenure, crime was first and foremost in most people's minds but, of course, the right was rabid about the prior propensity to let those damn n*ggers, sp*cs, m*cks, w*ps trash their precious and pristine lives. Another philosophical compromise that came to haunt him and Hillary. It's the same old story, Hegel was a mastermind of social manipulation... awareness, not to imply that he himself was the bottom of reptilian style humanity.
    “To seek self-knowledge is to embark on a journey which ... will always be incomplete" - courtesy of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

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