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Thread: Coronavirus with an R0 of 3 or beyond

  1. #391
    Moderator Wind's Avatar
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    I see that there is a whole new section for the Corona virus on Avalon.

    Last edited by Wind, 3rd April 2020 at 23:11.

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  3. #392
    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    I'm really at a loss to even describe the state of mind these people are in. What can we even call it? It is just so far removed from reality and the denial is on a level I have never seen before.
    Mass hysteria. It's the exact same group of people as who support Trump and who reject vaccines ─ the alt-right, the cynics, the knee-jerkers and the self-inflated egos. And it is no different from how Benito Mussolini, Adolf Hitler and Francisco Franco managed to hypnotize the masses in their respective countries during the first half of the twentieth century, or the success of the far-right here in the Flanders at the last elections. It was the same target audience, and they reacted in the same way.
    I'm beginning to think that this is worse than that. After all, most of the original Nazis and Fascists were around when the Spanish Flu hit and far as I'm aware none of them thought that it was a hoax, some sort of conspiracy or the result of those devilish AM Radio Waves.

    This is a completely new level of unhinged and I think you really have to go back to the black plague or the witch hunts to find equivalent mass hysteria and denial of reality. I don't want to sound negative, but the current pandemic (once it really hits, we probably haven't seen the worst of it yet) and the accompanying Greater Depression is likely to make the denialism and unhingedness far worse and much more widespread.
    Well, part of it is undoubtedly also due to the poor education system in the United States, which mainly serves as a propaganda machine for American Exceptionalism. US Americans have a very insular culture, and if you add the anti-communist (and thus pro-capitalist, pro-fascist) indoctrination to that, in combination with the fact that the predominant level of education in the southern states is very low, then what you get is a very dumbed-down population ─ politically polarized between corporate globalism and corporate nationalism, but nevertheless all unconditionally corporate and unconditionally believing in the supremacy of their country over all other nations and cultures. It is the primarily secular equivalent of fundamentalist Islam ─ and I write "primarily secular", because the southern states also add their own touch of Christian fundamentalism into that already very dangerous mix.

    As for the worst of the pandemic, China has had its peak already, and Italy and Spain are currently experiencing that peak because they were so late in responding. The rest of Europe ─ which has responded in time ─ is expecting the peak now in this first week of April, and preliminary figures seem to indicate that it's on the turn now, although it's a slow turn, and there are still hundreds of new infections being diagnosed every day, and still thousands of people in intensive care. But the lockdowns are paying off, and the curve is flattening out ─ very carefully and mildly, as it may.

    The big problem however is the United States, where Trump has been as incompetent as any US president could ever possibly be. He's just winging it, and any tempering of his negationism has come from the influence of his slightly more informed entourage, who were urging him to take certain measures that he would otherwise never have taken if left to his own device. After all, it's an election year, and he is adamant to get re-elected ─ which he most likely will be anyway, because the propaganda machine of the far-right has been working overtime, and to a far greater degree even than under Bush Jr. And thus, with the elections in mind, he's listening to his advisers, but it's still way too late. He's sacrificing his "fellow Americans" for the sake of his own grandiose ambitions.

    Either way, the United States is now the global epicenter, and from there it could easily spread to the rest of the world again if travel restrictions are not respected. But the problem is that Trump only respects travel restrictions on account of people flying into the United States, not on account of US Americans taking a flight out of the United States. After all, he only cares about what happens on the American island, not about what happens in the rest of the world.

    There is however yet another aspect to this whole thing, the gravity of which still remains to be seen, but personally, I do find it worrisome. The thing is that over in China, many people are being tested as positive again, but without that they show any symptoms of the disease. These can be both newly infected people as well as previously infected people who have suffered through the symptoms but who've recovered in the meantime, and who should thus in theory have completely vacated the virus from their bodies. But apparently that did not happen.

    So this could mean any or all of the following...

    • Certain people may have a natural immunity to the effects of the virus, but not to getting infected with the virus, so that they become unwitting carriers.

    • Even though people have recovered from the symptoms of the virus ─ which means that their bodies will have managed to build up an immunity ─ the virus still remains dormant in their bodies for much longer than anticipated, and is using these people as carriers, just as with the bullet point here-above.

    • Following the bullet point here-above, the virus may actually have mutated into a (symptom-wise) harmless or possibly dormant form ─ as opposed to that the antibodies of the recovered human beings would have killed the virus ─ and as such, it is still propagating itself via the human species. (Note: Dogs can carry and propagate the virus but won't suffer any illness from it. Cats on the other hand are just as susceptible to the symptoms as humans. A Belgian domesticated cat was found to carry the virus, and it was ill for a number of days, with both respiratory and metabolism problems.)

    • Given that coronaviruses in general ─ which includes the common cold ─ are commonly seasonal, a new outbreak could and should be expected later this year, when temperatures in the northern hemisphere start dropping again.


    In any case, what the above means is that over time, each and every human being could become a carrier for this particular coronavirus without that we're even aware of it ─ just as we're already carrying lots of other microorganisms in our bodies right now ─ and given the devastating effects of this virus, we could all end up as ticking time bombs toward our fellow human beings. And that would of course be the ultimate naturally-born biological weapon against the human species.

    I do not believe that SARS-CoV-2 would be a man-made biological weapon, but rather that nature itself created this particular virus as a weapon for bringing about a near-extinction-level event, given how humanity has been behaving itself like a plague upon the planet for about two centuries already. Nature as a whole is clearly a sentient/sapient entity ─ a kind of group consciousness.
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  5. #393
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    I largely agree with the above assessment, but I would like to add a few things.

    Maybe we are seeing peaks in some places, but this is just the first wave and even this one might easily last into the summer. Come Autumn, we are likely to see a second wave, which could be even more deadly and last well into spring. As with the Spanish Flu or the Black Plague, subsequent waves of a pandemic are often deadlier than the first one.

    Regarding the origins of the SARS-CoV-2 virus, it remains a mystery, but I wouldn't rule anything out at this point. At the very least, we should consider the possibility of an accidental release from the Wuhan BSL-4 lab, the only one in the country and with a history of accidental releases before, not to mention credible reports that some employees were selling potentially infected lab animals to the Wuhan Seafood market for some extra cash.

    I do think it is possible that this could be a natural occurrence, maybe something along a natural immune response from the global organism (as per the Gaia hypothesis), so in this context, it could be seen as the white blood cells of Gaia sent to rein in an overgrowth of cancerous cells (us) and to restore some balance to the planet. It is notable that pollution has dropped to almost nil and animals are reclaiming spaces that have been overrun by humans. However, I doubt that this will be permanent, though of course, it is a real possibility that industrial activity, tourism, travel, etc... will never recover to the heights it saw in 2019.

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  7. #394
    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    "The big problem however is the United States, where Trump has been as incompetent as any US president could ever possibly be. He's just winging it, and any tempering of his negationism has come from the influence of his slightly more informed entourage, who were urging him to take certain measures that he would otherwise never have taken if left to his own device. After all, it's an election year, and he is adamant to get re-elected ─ which he most likely will be anyway, because the propaganda machine of the far-right has been working overtime, and to a far greater degree even than under Bush Jr. And thus, with the elections in mind, he's listening to his advisers, but it's still way too late. He's sacrificing his "fellow Americans" for the sake of his own grandiose ambitions"

    What's interesting about that is that Trump said the other day that he is sending pre-ordered PPE to Europe to honor contracts. He implicitly added that he is foregoing American lives for 'contracts'. Money or lives? American lives? America first? Is that a hint of a moral fiber? Or is it a hint that Trump is weighing which side of the coin will benefit him most or hurt him least? I don't think he has the time or inclination to look at what hurts as he is too busy considering what benefits. And last but certainly not least will his servants and slaves recognize the contradiction?
    "A large infusion of cash will cure most forms of fanatacism" - Thumbnail Biographies

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  9. #395
    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    NotAPretender, I've moved two of your last three posts over to Chaos & The Anti-Thread, because they were off-topic here. We're trying to keep this thread here onto the topic of the pandemic and things that are sideways related to the pandemic, but the two posts I've moved over didn't even seem to touch upon that subject.

    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  11. #396
    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    oops, I did it again... U.S. deathrate from COVID-19 is now over 2%, the world rate is at 5%
    Last edited by NotAPretender, 4th April 2020 at 16:01.
    "A large infusion of cash will cure most forms of fanatacism" - Thumbnail Biographies

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  13. #397
    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Recorded cases of covid-19 in texas is a little over 6100 cases...official estimates says the total is more likely between 30 thousand to 60 thousand.
    "A large infusion of cash will cure most forms of fanatacism" - Thumbnail Biographies

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  15. #398
    Senior Member Amanda's Avatar
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    Good to see this thread chugging along.

    Here in Australia the vaccine is now being pushed by mainstream media. Whether that means forced/mandated I am not sure yet.

    I am okay with being tested but I do not feel comfortable with having a vaccine imposed upon me.

    Seems many others feel the same.

    My prime concerns are these:

    If there is a vaccine - has it been tested for efficacy?

    If it has been tested - then - did the powers that be know all along about what is happening?

    If the powers that be knew all along - why not bring out the vaccine earlier - as a preventative - for those who like to be vaccinated?

    If I am vaccinated by force and die - will my death be investigated and someone held accountable?


    I still don't see statistics that amount to pandemic. The Black Plague as per historians - reduced the global population from 60 million to 30 million - now that is a proper assessment of pandemic. What if the vaccine is forced upon People and that is when the statistics skyrocket into the arena of pandemic?????


    Someone knows exactly what is going on and unfortunately - we mere mortals in the lower classes (anything below elite) have to play 'pick up fifty-two' and make sense of the situation.

    Stay Strong People. I can still see two distinct personalities emerging - the Calm and the Aggressive. I have also noted the deleting of certain articles/videos/blogs/whatever on the internet. We certainly live in interesting times.

    Much Respect - Amanda

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  17. #399
    Senior Member Amanda's Avatar
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    Brand new video - less than ten minutes - is compelling. I am not a medical professional but what the doctor states via his professional experiences in recent days, make for very thought provoking intellectual discussion and consideration.



    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLXY_yqBgDE




    Much Respect - Amanda
    Last edited by Aragorn, 5th April 2020 at 09:47. Reason: embedded your video

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  19. #400
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    Quote Originally posted by Amanda View Post
    Good to see this thread chugging along.

    Here in Australia the vaccine is now being pushed by mainstream media. Whether that means forced/mandated I am not sure yet.

    I am okay with being tested but I do not feel comfortable with having a vaccine imposed upon me.

    Seems many others feel the same.

    My prime concerns are these:

    If there is a vaccine - has it been tested for efficacy?

    If it has been tested - then - did the powers that be know all along about what is happening?

    If the powers that be knew all along - why not bring out the vaccine earlier - as a preventative - for those who like to be vaccinated?

    If I am vaccinated by force and die - will my death be investigated and someone held accountable?


    I still don't see statistics that amount to pandemic. The Black Plague as per historians - reduced the global population from 60 million to 30 million - now that is a proper assessment of pandemic. What if the vaccine is forced upon People and that is when the statistics skyrocket into the arena of pandemic?????


    Someone knows exactly what is going on and unfortunately - we mere mortals in the lower classes (anything below elite) have to play 'pick up fifty-two' and make sense of the situation.

    Stay Strong People. I can still see two distinct personalities emerging - the Calm and the Aggressive. I have also noted the deleting of certain articles/videos/blogs/whatever on the internet. We certainly live in interesting times.

    Much Respect - Amanda
    Amanda, I sometimes wonder where you get your information from. The world population before the Black Death struck was more like Half a Billion. There is no vaccine available and likely won't be for at least another year. By that time people will probably be begging the authorities to get vaccinated, but only those lucky enough will get it, probably through a lottery system. Vaccines are not always a good idea, but in this instance, they would probably save many lives, if properly tested and trialled to make sure it is safe.

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  21. #401
    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    Lots of folks are now dying from disease that could be prevented with vaccines. If I or my child does, who will be held responsible? I think a great deal of people have a lot to answer for when it comes to disease and death caused directly by avoiding vaccines.

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  23. #402
    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Amanda View Post
    My prime concerns are these:

    If there is a vaccine - has it been tested for efficacy?

    If it has been tested - then - did the powers that be know all along about what is happening?

    If the powers that be knew all along - why not bring out the vaccine earlier - as a preventative - for those who like to be vaccinated?
    There is no readily available vaccine yet, because this situation was not anticipated by any powers that be. This thing has taken the world by surprise, and if there's anything it has shown us so far, then it's how nobody had been properly preparing for a situation like this. What we are experiencing right now is The Day The Earth Stood Still.

    However, medical and pharmaceutical professionals all over the world are all working on a vaccine, and they're rushing its development so that it could become available later this year.

    The development of a vaccine doesn't happen overnight. First it has to be developed. Then it has to be sufficiently tested in order to prove that it works, and that it doesn't have any negative side-effects. The first tests are always conducted upon animals, and then later tests are conducted upon human volunteers. And then, when the vaccine is deemed safe, it must go into mass production and it must be distributed.

    These things take time ─ lots of valuable time. Preliminary estimates are that a vaccine could become available by October 2020, but that's not even a certainty yet. And meanwhile the virus keeps on spreading ─ and especially so in the USA nowadays, where only an insignificant minority of the population is even being tested ─ and people are dying. The youngest victim here in Belgium was a 12-year old girl. She died last week, and within only a few days.

    Quote Originally posted by Amanda View Post
    If I am vaccinated by force and die - will my death be investigated and someone held accountable?
    As a former police officer, you should be well aware that suspicious deaths are always investigated, Amanda.

    Quote Originally posted by Amanda View Post
    I still don't see statistics that amount to pandemic.
    Then you are not looking in the right direction, or possibly, not in any direction at all, because the evidence is everywhere.

    Quote Originally posted by Amanda View Post
    Someone knows exactly what is going on and unfortunately - we mere mortals in the lower classes (anything below elite) have to play 'pick up fifty-two' and make sense of the situation.
    I am sorry Amanda, but that is a typical paranoid knee-jerk reaction. Where are your critical and divergent thinking skills?





    Quote Originally posted by Amanda View Post
    Brand new video - less than ten minutes - is compelling. I am not a medical professional but what the doctor states via his professional experiences in recent days, make for very thought provoking intellectual discussion and consideration.



    Interestingly, he's recording this video from what is apparently his own home, while wearing what appears to be operating room clothing. Hygiene Rule Number One for all hospital personnel is that you take off your medical outfit before you leave the hospital.

    How do you know this guy is even a doctor? Could it not be that he acquired that blue O.R. shirt in order to appear "professional" on camera? Or maybe he's a dentist, in which case he's probably only wearing the shirt but not the matching trousers.

    As you say, you're not a medical professional. Well, neither am I, but I did study in that direction, I have washed people from top to bottom and cleaned out bed pans, I have taken tests, I have administered injections and intravenous medication, I have watched open heart surgery in progress, I have cleaned out festering wounds that reached down to the bone and that would make you throw up by just looking at them or smelling the pus, and I do still retain quite a large part of the knowledge regarding physiology, pathology, virology et al that I've learned in the years I was there ─ long ago as it may be.

    But then again, I'm not a YouTube talking head with thousands of subscribers, so no one listens to me. And yet you should. <sigh>





    Once again ─ and everybody please do take notice ─ this thread is for factual reporting on the SARS-CoV-2 virus outbreak, not for subtle or less subtle denial of the situation.
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  25. #403
    Senior Member Amanda's Avatar
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    The short video I posted above - of a doctor explaining what he is seeing. I sent it to two medical professionals. One medical professional is at the forefront - working in an intensive care ward of a metropolitan hospital. Confirmed what the doctor states.

    My contact stated that patients appear oxygen starved but via CT looks like pneumonia. I am still waiting for the second medical professional to respond - I imagine they are busy and fatigued. Some medical locations are under a confidentiality agreement not to speak.

    The doctor could still be at work in his mealroom. Just because he is wearing a blue hospital style shirt does not mean he has left the hospital.

    I will state again what I stated earlier. There are two facts of which I am certain:

    1. There is an illness.

    2. Two types of personality are emerging - calm and aggressive.



    I am asking questions because I want to understand what is happening. Pull apart all my questions and comments all you like - I will remain calm because all I am doing is keeping my brain active. I'll provide an example.


    In Australia - I printed off the first legislation (fifteen pages) to be Gazetted. Public Health (COVID - 19 Restrictions on Gathering and Movement) Order 2020. Part 4 Closure of certain premises.

    This is me: The list of locations for closure is lengthy and specific. It includes, at the top of Page 9: Early education and care facility... yet in a first person phone conversation last night with a friend, who watched the mainstream news that day - the Australian Prime Minster stated all day care is free of charge????!!!!!


    So - if it appears to you that there is chaos and misunderstanding on a global scale right now - you would be correct. I choose to remain calm - I have two more items of legislation to print off and study. I am fortunate enough to have medical professionals who trust me and share information and I have electrical engineers and even a chemical engineer - to whom I can direct questions.


    I will continue to remain calm and continue to ask questions. What everyone else does is not for me to judge or on which to make an opinion. I care deeply that People are dying from COVID - 19 and I care deeply that ALL our lives have been disrupted. The truth will fizz up to the surface - it always does. I am remaining calm as a sign of respect for those who have died and for those who are at the forefront assisting the ill. When the truth finally emerges into the light for ALL of us to see - I wonder how many People will be filled with the rage that ensues when they - realise there were lies in amid the chaos.


    Much Respect - As we all navigate our way through this chaos - Amanda

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  27. #404
    Moderator Wind's Avatar
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    A good reality check. May we show our humanity towards each other in times like these.


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  29. #405
    Senior Member Amanda's Avatar
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    The link below was just sent to me via Private Message. Read and make up your own mind.


    https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https...PIt8FPL79iGMt4



    Much Respect - Amanda

    NB: Checked and the link is working.

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