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Thread: Coronavirus with an R0 of 3 or beyond

  1. #1051
    Senior Member Hungary
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    I found the below NYT story about Hungary's vaccine procurement programme interesting. Apparently, the Chinese vaccine, which most people are reluctant to take, because it hasn't undergone phase 3 clinical trials and is therefore not approved by the EU vaccine authority, is a lot more expensive than any of the others. I wonder if it was worth taking the risk of paying top dollar for an unapproved vaccine. There is also a whiff of corruption around the procurement process, as it was done through a third party that probably does a fair bit of price gouging. Only time will tell if this was a good move or not.

    It is already being floated in the news media, that those that get the Chinese and Russian vaccines, which will be most people here in Hungary, won't be eligible for an EU-wide vaccine passport, that is they won't be able to travel abroad, despite having been vaccinated. I feel there is bit of geopolitical posturing in this and it isn't actually based on medical science.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/11/w...arm-covid.html

    Hungary pays big for a Chinese vaccine.

    Hungary has agreed to pay about $36 a dose for the Covid-19 vaccine made by Sinopharm, a Chinese state-owned company, according to contracts made public by a senior Hungarian official on Thursday. That appears to make the Sinopharm shot among the most expensive in the world.

    Hungary has agreed to buy five million doses of the Sinopharm vaccine, priced at 30 euros ($36) each, according to contracts that Prime Minister Viktor Orban’s chief of staff, Gergely Gulyas, uploaded to his Facebook page. The contract is between the Hungarian government and a third-party vendor, and that price far surpasses what the European Union has agreed to pay for vaccines from Western manufacturers.

    The European Union has said it would pay €15.50 per dose for the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, according to Reuters, which cited an internal E.U. document. For AstraZeneca, it agreed to pay $2.15 per dose, according to Belgium’s budget secretary.

    The contracts that Mr. Gulyas published also show that Hungary, which has recorded nearly half a million coronavirus cases and more than 16,000 deaths, has agreed to pay $9.95 per dose for the Russian Sputnik-V vaccine.

    The company from which Hungary is buying the vaccine underwent a change in ownership two months before the transaction, was awarded the contract after the government exempted it from having to take part in an open public procurement process, said Miklos Ligeti, legal director for Transparency International Hungary, an anticorruption group. (Because of an editing error, an earlier version of this article misstated which company had changed ownership.)

    Such arrangements raise red flags for anticorruption watchdogs, who warn that the involvement of third parties increases the risk of price gouging. “We don’t know how much this company actually paid for this vaccine,” Mr. Ligeti said.

    Given publicly available data on this company, Mr. Ligeti pointed to figures that he described as worrying. “The government of Hungary assigned a contract with a net value of 150 million euros” — $179 million — “to a company with registered capital of €9,000” ($10,700), he said.

    Hungary is one of the few European countries to sign a deal with Sinopharm, which has promoted itself to developing countries at a time when many richer nations are hoarding doses by Western drugmakers like Pfizer and Moderna. A major selling point has been Sinopharm’s manufacturing capacity: It has said it can make up to three billion doses by the end of this year.

    The Sinopharm price is extraordinary in part because the company, unlike the Western vaccine makers, has not published detailed data from Phase 3 trials.

    Sinopharm is mass-producing two vaccines. It says that the first, made in conjunction with the Beijing Institute of Biological Products, has an efficacy rate of 79 percent, and that the second, made with the Wuhan Institute of Biological Products, is 72.5 percent effective.

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  3. #1052
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    This touches on lockdowns and vaccines and George Washington.


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  5. #1053
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    Mild symptoms at first with long term neurological damage occurs in some people.


    This is an abstract of an article from the American Neurological Association:


    Objective

    Most SARS‐CoV‐2‐infected individuals never require hospitalization. However, some develop prolonged symptoms. We sought to characterize the spectrum of neurologic manifestations in non‐hospitalized Covid‐19 “long haulers”.


    Methods

    This is a prospective study of the first 100 consecutive patients (50 SARS‐CoV‐2 laboratory‐positive and 50 laboratory‐negative individuals) presenting to our Neuro‐Covid‐19 clinic between May and November 2020. Due to early pandemic testing limitations, patients were included if they met Infectious Diseases Society of America symptoms of Covid‐19, were never hospitalized for pneumonia or hypoxemia and had neurologic symptoms lasting over 6 weeks. We recorded the frequency of neurologic symptoms and analyzed patient‐reported quality of life measures and standardized cognitive assessments.


    Results

    Mean age was 43.2±11.3 years, 70% were female and 48% were evaluated in televisits. The most frequent comorbidities were depression/anxiety (42%) and autoimmune disease (16%). The main neurologic manifestations were: “brain fog” (81%), headache (68%), numbness/tingling (60%), dysgeusia (59%), anosmia (55%), myalgias (55%), with only anosmia being more frequent in SARS‐CoV‐2+ than SARS‐CoV‐2‐ patients (37/50 [74%] vs (18/50 [36%]; p <0.001). Moreover, 85% also experienced fatigue. There was no correlation between time from disease onset and subjective impression of recovery. Both groups exhibited impaired quality of life in cognitive and fatigue domains. SARS‐CoV‐2+ patients performed worse in attention and working memory cognitive tasks compared to a demographic‐matched US population (T‐score 41.5 [37, 48.25] and 43 [37.5, 48.75], respectively; both p<0.01).


    Interpretation

    Non‐hospitalized Covid‐19 “long haulers” experience prominent and persistent “brain fog” and fatigue that affect their cognition and quality of life.



    This estimates 71 million Americans have or have had Covid-19:

    Now, a machine-learning algorithm developed at UT Southwestern estimates that the number of COVID-19 cases in the U.S. since the pandemic began is nearly three times that of confirmed cases.
    This article from Harvard Medical School addresses heart issues related to Covid-19.

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  7. #1054
    Senior Member BeastOfBologna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    Mild symptoms at first with long term neurological damage occurs in some people.


    This is an abstract of an article from the American Neurological Association:




    This estimates 71 million Americans have or have had Covid-19:



    This article from Harvard Medical School addresses heart issues related to Covid-19.
    I got my 1st of 2 covid vaccinations yesterday ... Moderna. Free at last, Free at last!
    “But those who have been under the shadow, who have gone down at last to elemental things, will have a wider charity” - Herbert George Wells -

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  9. #1055
    Super Moderator Wind's Avatar
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    Last edited by Wind, 30th March 2021 at 02:58.

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    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post

    Yes, and he has zero evidence for his claim. He's only parroting the vantage of his former boss ─ who had just as little evidence to support his claim. The WHO has once again confirmed that the virus originates in bats and that it has found its way to a human host by way of another, intermediate animal host.

    Nature does that. Viruses mutate all the time. The SARS-CoV-2 virus has already mutated dozens if not hundreds of times since the pandemic broke loose. We now have the original two variants and their respective small mutations, and then there's the British variant, the South African variant, the Brazilian variant, and undoubtedly more variants to come.

    This thing is far from over yet. In fact, I would contend ─ and I already have, for a long time ─ that it's here to stay.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  13. #1057
    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Yes, and he has zero evidence for his claim. He's only parroting the vantage of his former boss ─ who had just as little evidence to support his claim. The WHO has once again confirmed that the virus originates in bats and that it has found its way to a human host by way of another, intermediate animal host.

    Nature does that. Viruses mutate all the time. The SARS-CoV-2 virus has already mutated dozens if not hundreds of times since the pandemic broke loose. We now have the original two variants and their respective small mutations, and then there's the British variant, the South African variant, the Brazilian variant, and undoubtedly more variants to come.

    This thing is far from over yet. In fact, I would contend ─ and I already have, for a long time ─ that it's here to stay.
    The coronavirus variants are indeed here to stay. As well as other viruses yet to come. As long as we (humans) continue our practices which lead to crossover, the crossover will continue.

    We don't need no stinkin' labs. We have our own selves.

    When we can't manage to agree on/coordinate the simple act of mask-wearing, we will not be able to fight these diseases effectively. We've seen here in my country how denial combined with a piecemeal, disorganized response leads to many deaths.

    Considering we're a nation of 350 million in a world of 6 billion, that is a supremely stupid response.


    Factory farming, bush meat, wet markets, living in close quarters with livestock, all of these things lead to more zoonotic organisms.

    Denying science or relying on secret twelfth dimension folks will only lead us to more disease and death.


    The biggest surprise to me is how many folks from my country are on the crazy train to more disease spread. They talk and talk about herd immunity and don't even understand how that dynamic works.

    They've become armchair quarterbacks with 20/20 hindsight who never actually look into the past to learn from it.


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  15. #1058
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    Considering we're a nation of 350 million in a world of 6 billion [...]
    A nation of 330 million in a world of 7.4 billion.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    I knew I was using lower numbers, I figured err on the lower rather than higher side.

    And thanks, Aragorn.

    I've tried to tell people there are more than 7 billion people in the world and people keep arguing with me. Perhaps more denial? Why, I wonder?

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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    I knew I was using lower numbers, I figured err on the lower rather than higher side.

    And thanks, Aragorn.

    I've tried to tell people there are more than 7 billion people in the world and people keep arguing with me. Perhaps more denial? Why, I wonder?
    Because for most US Americans, the world ends right there at the borders of the USA. Most of them wouldn't even be able to point out the UK on a map, let alone Belgium, Finland, or for that matter, China, Russia or Australia. The only two other countries US Americans will on average be aware of are Canada ─ because it separates Alaska from the US mainland ─ and Mexico.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  21. #1061
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    Pretty much all of the people I know, friends and family, would do very well with a globe. They may be exceptional. I'd like to believe they're not.


    I think a lot of it is people just not wanting to be wrong, even if it's just a little. And so they double down and insist, even without evidence or experience.

    It's a juvenile dynamic, and also widespread.

    "I don't want to admit a problem so I'm going to either go into denial or project it out onto you. There's nothing wrong with me, so it must be you."

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  23. #1062
    Super Moderator Wind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Nature does that. Viruses mutate all the time. The SARS-CoV-2 virus has already mutated dozens if not hundreds of times since the pandemic broke loose. We now have the original two variants and their respective small mutations, and then there's the British variant, the South African variant, the Brazilian variant, and undoubtedly more variants to come.
    I still don't know what to think about it, I was more on the fence but I think there is real high possibility that it came from a lab. Could be that it just came from nature too, but it doesn't make a difference either way. Human stupidity is making everything much worse. This country is getting another lockdown too soon again.

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    Senior Member BeastOfBologna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    I still don't know what to think about it, I was more on the fence but I think there is real high possibility that it came from a lab. Could be that it just came from nature too, but it doesn't make a difference either way. Human stupidity is making everything much worse. This country is getting another lockdown too soon again.
    After I got my 1st covid shot, I started relaxing immediately ... forget my mask here, forget my mask there. That was a very bad move. After a couple of warnings, I hope I have returned to my senses.

    As far as the origin ... I've been on the fence since the beginning but on a scale of 1 to 100, I've been about 51 on the side of the natural evolution.

    So my latest thought is ... Even if Covid-19 is claimed as a one-in-a-million natural development that might not represent an unsupportable conclusion.

    What if there are 999,999 variants that are harmless as we speak but the 999,998th one might be the one that hits that last condition to become a deadly virus.

    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Because for most US Americans, the world ends right there at the borders of the USA. Most of them wouldn't even be able to point out the UK on a map, let alone Belgium, Finland, or for that matter, China, Russia, or Australia. The only two other countries US Americans will on average be aware of are Canada ─ because it separates Alaska from the US mainland ─ and Mexico.
    What borders?
    “But those who have been under the shadow, who have gone down at last to elemental things, will have a wider charity” - Herbert George Wells -

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  27. #1064
    Senior Member Hungary
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    I would say that there are too many coincidences here to conclude that this virus is definitely a product of natural processes and not the result of a lab leak or even some clandestine gain of function research. I don't want to repeat the same arguments ad infinitum, plenty of evidence was presented here as to the probability of a non-accidental release for over a year, you can go back and read those posts, links and studies, if you are still on the fence.

    The way I see it, most people are still in denial, but soon they will move on to the anger phase, that's when the CCP government will be in real deep shit. There's going to be consequences for causing this pandemic and they won't be able to escape the blame for much longer, no matter how much the WHO tries to cover up for them. Nobody's buying it, least of all the leaders of major Western Powers who probably know a lot more about the background to this than they're letting on.

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    Senior Member donk's Avatar
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    Seriously? You people don’t think we were overdue for something...quite frankly...WORSE than this?

    I swear when I found myself in this “community” that more members than not were aware of basic biology, and concerned with the way humans treated nature, and have been expecting a pandemic for a loooong time, as epidemiology has been saying for decades. I thought this community would have at least half the membership remember a reality where this, like lots of the other problem often discussed, was entirely absolutely PREDICTABLE.

    But soooo many have gotten sooo good at finding “too many coincidences” for it to be anything other than human behavior being psychotic on top of mostly psychopathic. And we project that on to the situation: “no, it can’t be the way we are living that wrecked the ecosystem and f***ed human health, it’s them thar dragons....the evil people/demons/reptiles/whatever” that clearly unleashed a virus so ‘they’ can somehow benefit”

    We live in a structure where the selfish individualism ideology thrives on the fear of “others” among our own species, demonizing cooperative ideals as “evil socialism”, living in harmony with our fellow humans, let alone the only planet we got at the moment is somehow terrible or anti-whatevercountryyouare from to way too many people.

    It’s madness
    What is the purpose of your presence?

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