Coronavirus with an R0 of 3 or beyond

[Dreamtimer]

"Please, do not follow our example."

This one's only three minutes.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzqstDcb44I

[Aragorn]

Source: NPR

New Studies Find Evidence Of 'Superhuman' Immunity To COVID-19 In Some Individuals

Some scientists have called it "superhuman immunity" or "bulletproof." But immunologist Shane Crotty prefers "hybrid immunity."

"Overall, hybrid immunity to SARS-CoV-2 appears to be impressively potent," Crotty wrote in commentary in Science back in June.


No matter what you call it, this type of immunity offers much-needed good news in what seems like an endless array of bad news regarding COVID-19.

Over the past several months, a series of studies has found that some people mount an extraordinarily powerful immune response against SARS-CoV-2, the coronavirus that causes the disease COVID-19. Their bodies produce very high levels of antibodies, but they also make antibodies with great flexibility — likely capable of fighting off the coronavirus variants circulating in the world but also likely effective against variants that may emerge in the future.


"One could reasonably predict that these people will be quite well protected against most — and perhaps all of — the SARS-CoV-2 variants that we are likely to see in the foreseeable future," says Paul Bieniasz, a virologist at Rockefeller University who helped lead several of the studies.

In a study published online last month, Bieniasz and his colleagues found antibodies in these individuals that can strongly neutralize the six variants of concern tested, including delta and beta, as well as several other viruses related to SARS-CoV-2, including one in bats, two in pangolins and the one that caused the first coronavirus pandemic, SARS-CoV-1.

"This is being a bit more speculative, but I would also suspect that they would have some degree of protection against the SARS-like viruses that have yet to infect humans," Bieniasz says.

So who is capable of mounting this "superhuman" or "hybrid" immune response?

People who have had a "hybrid" exposure to the virus. Specifically, they were infected with the coronavirus in 2020 and then immunized with mRNA vaccines this year. "Those people have amazing responses to the vaccine," says virologist Theodora Hatziioannou at Rockefeller University, who also helped lead several of the studies. "I think they are in the best position to fight the virus. The antibodies in these people's blood can even neutralize SARS-CoV-1, the first coronavirus, which emerged 20 years ago. That virus is very, very different from SARS-CoV-2."

In fact, these antibodies were even able to deactivate a virus engineered, on purpose, to be highly resistant to neutralization. This virus contained 20 mutations that are known to prevent SARS-CoV-2 antibodies from binding to it. Antibodies from people who were only vaccinated or who only had prior coronavirus infections were essentially useless against this mutant virus. But antibodies in people with the "hybrid immunity" could neutralize it.

These findings show how powerful the mRNA vaccines can be in people with prior exposure to SARS-CoV-2, she says. "There's a lot of research now focused on finding a pan-coronavirus vaccine that would protect against all future variants. Our findings tell you that we already have it.

"But there's a catch, right?" she adds: You first need to be sick with COVID-19. "After natural infections, the antibodies seem to evolve and become not only more potent but also broader. They become more resistant to mutations within the [virus]."

Hatziioannou and colleagues don't know if everyone who has had COVID-19 and then an mRNA vaccine will have such a remarkable immune response. "We've only studied the phenomena with a few patients because it's extremely laborious and difficult research to do," she says.

But she suspects it's quite common. "With every single one of the patients we studied, we saw the same thing." The study reports data on 14 patients.

Several other studies support her hypothesis — and buttress the idea that exposure to both a coronavirus and an mRNA vaccine triggers an exceptionally powerful immune response. In one study, published last month in The New England Journal of Medicine, scientists analyzed antibodies generated by people who had been infected with the original SARS virus — SARS-CoV-1 — back in 2002 or 2003 and who then received an mRNA vaccine this year.

Remarkably, these people also produced high levels of antibodies and — it's worth reiterating this point from a few paragraphs above — antibodies that could neutralize a whole range of variants and SARS-like viruses.

Now, of course, there are so many remaining questions. For example, what if you catch COVID-19 after you're vaccinated? Or can a person who hasn't been infected with the coronavirus mount a "superhuman" response if the person receives a third dose of a vaccine as a booster?

Hatziioannou says she can't answer either of those questions yet. "I'm pretty certain that a third shot will help a person's antibodies evolve even further, and perhaps they will acquire some breadth [or flexibility], but whether they will ever manage to get the breadth that you see following natural infection, that's unclear."

Immunologist John Wherry, at the University of Pennsylvania, is a bit more hopeful. "In our research, we already see some of this antibody evolution happening in people who are just vaccinated," he says, "although it probably happens faster in people who have been infected."

In a recent study, published online in late August, Wherry and his colleagues showed that, over time, people who have had only two doses of the vaccine (and no prior infection) start to make more flexible antibodies — antibodies that can better recognize many of the variants of concern.

So a third dose of the vaccine would presumably give those antibodies a boost and push the evolution of the antibodies further, Wherry says. So a person will be better equipped to fight off whatever variant the virus puts out there next.

"Based on all these findings, it looks like the immune system is eventually going to have the edge over this virus," says Bieniasz, of Rockefeller University. "And if we're lucky, SARS-CoV-2 will eventually fall into that category of viruses that gives us only a mild cold."

Source: NPR

[Dreamtimer]

Excellent. Good News on the Covid front.

For those who wish to 'do their own research', it can be done. But it ain't easy and it ain't gonna involve your typical armchair quarterback.

Preferably, look at top-tier journals whose reviews are strict. Also, the FDA-prepared summaries of the vaccine clinical trial data (they reviewed all the raw data submitted by drug companies.) And for drug treatments, the Cochrane Review summaries of all clinical trials, in which they review the quality of the evidence and keep only those with adequate design and reporting.

Of course, reviewing 300 pp of Cochrane or even the 50-60 page FDA summaries does require some expertise and patience. But this is my profession (medical research) and I have many years of experience. For people not willing or able to do that work, the bottom line is really simple: get vaccinated. Wear a mask. Avoid close settings with people unwilling to do those two things. And support your local public health folks who are trying to keep the community safe, as well as the healthcare folks who are dealing with the consequences of NOT listening.

[Wind]

New details emerge about coronavirus research at Chinese lab

Newly released documents provide details of U.S.-funded research on several types of coronaviruses at the Wuhan Institute of Virology in China. The Intercept has obtained more than 900 pages of documents detailing the work of EcoHealth Alliance, a U.S.-based health organization that used federal money to fund bat coronavirus research at the Chinese laboratory. The trove of documents includes two previously unpublished grant proposals that were funded by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, as well as project updates relating to EcoHealth Alliance’s research, which has been scrutinized amid increased interest in the origins of the pandemic.

The documents were released in connection with ongoing Freedom of Information Act litigation by The Intercept against the National Institutes of Health. The Intercept is making the full documents available to the public.

“This is a road map to the high-risk research that could have led to the current pandemic,” said Gary Ruskin, executive director of U.S. Right To Know, a group that has been investigating the origins of Covid-19.

One of the grants, titled “Understanding the Risk of Bat Coronavirus Emergence,” outlines an ambitious effort led by EcoHealth Alliance President Peter Daszak to screen thousands of bat samples for novel coronaviruses. The research also involved screening people who work with live animals. The documents contain several critical details about the research in Wuhan, including the fact that key experimental work with humanized mice was conducted at a biosafety level 3 lab at Wuhan University Center for Animal Experiment — and not at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, as was previously assumed. The documents raise additional questions about the theory that the pandemic may have begun in a lab accident, an idea that Daszak has aggressively dismissed.

The bat coronavirus grant provided EcoHealth Alliance with a total of $3.1 million, including $599,000 that the Wuhan Institute of Virology used in part to identify and alter bat coronaviruses likely to infect humans. Even before the pandemic, many scientists were concerned about the potential dangers associated with such experiments. The grant proposal acknowledges some of those dangers: “Fieldwork involves the highest risk of exposure to SARS or other CoVs, while working in caves with high bat density overhead and the potential for fecal dust to be inhaled.”

Alina Chan, a molecular biologist at the Broad Institute, said the documents show that EcoHealth Alliance has reason to take the lab-leak theory seriously. “In this proposal, they actually point out that they know how risky this work is. They keep talking about people potentially getting bitten — and they kept records of everyone who got bitten,” Chan said. “Does EcoHealth have those records? And if not, how can they possibly rule out a research-related accident?”

According to Richard Ebright, a molecular biologist at Rutgers University, the documents contain critical information about the research done in Wuhan, including about the creation of novel viruses. “The viruses they constructed were tested for their ability to infect mice that were engineered to display human type receptors on their cell,” Ebright wrote to The Intercept after reviewing the documents. Ebright also said the documents make it clear that two different types of novel coronaviruses were able to infect humanized mice. “While they were working on SARS-related coronavirus, they were carrying out a parallel project at the same time on MERS-related coronavirus,” Ebright said, referring to the virus that causes Middle East Respiratory Syndrome.

Asked about the grant materials, Robert Kessler, communications manager at EcoHealth Alliance, said, “We applied for grants to conduct research. The relevant agencies deemed that to be important research, and thus funded it. So I don’t know that there’s a whole lot to say.”

The grant was initially awarded for a five-year period — from 2014 to 2019. Funding was renewed in 2019 but suspended by the Trump administration in April 2020.

The closest relative of SARS-CoV-2, which causes Covid-19, is a virus found in bats, making the animals a focal point for efforts to understand the origins of the pandemic. Exactly how the virus jumped to humans is the subject of heated debate. Many scientists believe that it was a natural spillover, meaning that the virus passed to humans in a setting such as a wet market or rural area where humans and animals are in close contact. Biosafety experts and internet sleuths who suspect a lab origin, meanwhile, have spent more than a year poring over publicly available information and obscure scientific publications looking for answers. In the past few months, leading scientists have also called for a deeper investigation of the pandemic’s origins, as has President Joe Biden, who in May ordered the intelligence community to study the issue. On August 27, Biden announced that the intelligence inquiry was inconclusive.

Biden blamed China for failing to release critical data, but the U.S. government has also been slow to release information. The Intercept initially requested the proposals in September 2020.

“I wish that this document had been released in early 2020,” said Chan, who has called for an investigation of the lab-leak origin theory. “It would have changed things massively, just to have all of the information in one place, immediately transparent, in a credible document that was submitted by EcoHealth Alliance.”

The second grant, “Understanding Risk of Zoonotic Virus Emergence in Emerging Infectious Disease Hotspots of Southeast Asia,” was awarded in August 2020 and extends through 2025. The proposal, written in 2019, often seems prescient, focusing on scaling up and deploying resources in Asia in case of an outbreak of an “emergent infectious disease” and referring to Asia as “this hottest of the EID hotspots.”

[Chris]

Joe Rogan on his recent experience with covid and recovery, plus the lies CNN and other mainstream media outlets parroted about his use of Ivermectin to treat his infection. It bears repeating here that the claim that Ivermectin is a horse dewormer and nothing else is a malicious lie. Some speculation as to why the media and big pharma are so desperate to discredit alternative therapies for covid, which have been proven to work, which I happen to agree with. Emergency use authorisation, which is all what currently available covid vaccines have right now, is contingent upon there not being an alternative treatment, which is already approved. If ivermectin were to be approved for covid use as it already has been in Japan, it might mean the withdrawal of emergency use authorisation, necessitating a multi-year trial process that all pharmaceuticals have to go through, before winning full approval.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O_7O9_nV10

[Dreamtimer]

Just so you know, I've heard media talk of horse dewormer/sheep drench in the context of lots and lots of folks buying it and self-medicating which is a very bad idea.

Poison control centers are being flooded with calls and folks are having to go to their doctor or the emergency room.

And I've also heard plenty in the media about the human prescribed ivermectin which has been approved for parasites, not viral use. And which has not shown significant protection from viruses. There's a good bit of speculation out there and very little in the way of real evidence.

People want off-label use based on mostly and potentially dangerous speculation.

Joe also takes stem cell injections (pre-covid), took monoclonal antibodies, and has access to all kinds of health care/supplements/apparatuses that regular folks do not.

Joe has shown a tendency to pick and choose regarding what's actually reported int the media.

I say this as someone who has listened to hours and hours and hours of Joe Rogan.

[Chris]

Joe Rogan and Brett Weinstein on the Horse Dewormer narrative and the possible motivations behind it, plus the outright lies being spun by MM. If you ask me, the whole mainstream narrative around covid is falling apart, which is such a shame, because it will discredit "the Science" and mainstream medicine in general for generations to come. It seems to me that the people involved in the whole thing are Dr Evil - level Hollywood villains and the whole edifice is rotting from the head.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI5gtJ4ObpQ


The whole episode will be worth a watch, though I haven't seen it yet.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFqoEU50PCE

[Emil El Zapato]

Joe Rogan and Brett Weinstein on the Horse Dewormer narrative and the possible motivations behind it, plus the outright lies being spun by MM. If you ask me, the whole mainstream narrative around covid is falling apart, which is such a shame, because it will discredit "the Science" and mainstream medicine in general for generations to come. It seems to me that the people involved in the whole thing are Dr Evil - level Hollywood villains and the whole edifice is rotting from the head.]

Not likely, Chris, alternative media has no constraints, least of all integrity, most of all no good sense in most cases. Mainstream has many of the same problems but their greatest problems are good sense and the need to keep up with the alternates need for sensationalism.

[Dreamtimer]

I listened to Bret Weinstein on Joe's podcast. And a couple other podcasts. I've also listened to him and his wife on theirs. I've lost regard for Bret. Smarts and wisdom can sometimes be very far apart. He's lost the wisdom part and the smarts are picking and choosing, imo.

Meanwhile, deaths are rising here in areas where folks aren't getting vaccinated. These are folks who cannot afford monoclonal antibodies and other expensive treatments. People are being asked to cut back on water use because oxygen used in purification is needed for hospitals.

This denial is dangerous and affects everyone. It's very selfish.

[Dreamtimer]

Are we going to learn, or continue to be manipulated?

Anyone active on social media is aware that there is a great deal of passionate but ill-founded opposition to vaccination, including to the new COVID-19 vaccines. How could that be? Physicians and the public health establishment are constantly promoting vaccination, especially as we try to stem the tide of the coronavirus pandemic.

It turns out that the anti-vaccine sentiment is the product of what can only be described as an industry whose principal protagonists are an organized group of professional propagandists. As recently reported in the science journal Nature, they are people “running multi-million-dollar organizations, incorporated mainly in the USA, with as many as 60 staff each.”

Moreover, the source of much of the misinformation about vaccines comes from an unobvious source: the Russian government’s propaganda apparatus, which cultivates and exploits foreign anti-vaccine “useful idiots,” causing palpable harm to Americans and citizens of other Western countries.

This is part of a much broader and long-standing pattern of attacks by Russia. As journalist and historian Anne Applebaum wrote last week (March 19th) in The Atlantic:

“For decades now, Russian security services have studied a concept called ‘reflexive control’—the science of how to get your enemies to make mistakes. To be successful, practitioners must first analyze their opponents deeply, to understand where they get their information and why they trust it; then they need to find ways of playing with those trusted sources, in order to insert errors and mistakes. This way of thinking has huge implications for the military; consider how a piece of incorrect information might get a general to make a mistake.”

As I’ve previously described, Russia regularly conducts health-related disinformation and propaganda campaigns intended to humiliate or disparage the country’s foreign enemies. In the 1980s, the Soviet Union concocted an elaborate disinformation scheme to blame the appearance of HIV and AIDS on U.S. military research. They first planted the story in a sympathetic Indian newspaper, then followed it up with other fake stories that cited the initial report.

A 2018 U.S. Senate-commissioned analysis by New Knowledge, a cybersecurity firm, confirmed that Russia’s infamous troll factory, the Internet Research Agency, conducts “modern information warfare” against its adversaries. Renee DiResta, the research director of the firm, described the IRA’s battle plan as a “cross-platform attack that made use of numerous features on each social network and that spanned the entire social ecosystem.”

A study published by academics in 2018, “Weaponized Health Communication: Twitter Bots and Russian Trolls Amplify the Vaccine Debate,” found that thousands of Russian social media accounts were spreading anti-vaccine messaging. From an examination of almost two million tweets posted between 2014 and 2017, the researchers found that Russian troll accounts were significantly more likely to tweet about vaccination than were Twitter users generally. They noted that Russian tweets like, “Apparently only the elite get ‘clean’ #vaccines. And what do we, normal ppl, get?!” seem intended to exacerbate socioeconomic tensions in the United States.

Russia is at it again now, in earnest. Using online publications to raise concerns about the rapidity of the coronavirus vaccines’ development and their safety, they have been conducting an aggressive campaign to undermine confidence in the Pfizer-BioNTech and other Western coronavirus vaccines.

THE VACCINE WARS

As reported in the Wall Street Journal on March 7th, “an official with the State Department’s Global Engagement Center, which monitors foreign disinformation efforts, identified four publications that he said have served as fronts for Russian intelligence.” They are New Eastern Outlook, Oriental Review, News Front, and Rebel Inside. The official said that, although the outlets’ readership is small, they spread false narratives that can be amplified by other media organizations and, of course, by the domestic anti-vaccine industry.

The Journal further reported:

“In addition, Russian state media and Russian government Twitter accounts have made overt efforts to raise concerns about the cost and safety of the Pfizer vaccine in what experts outside the U.S. government say is an effort to promote the sale of Russia’s rival Sputnik V vaccine.

‘The emphasis on denigrating Pfizer is likely due to its status as the first vaccine besides Sputnik V to see mass use, resulting in a greater potential threat to Sputnik’s market dominance,’ says a forthcoming report by the Alliance for Securing Democracy, a nongovernmental organization that focuses on the danger that authoritarian governments pose to democracies and that is part of the German Marshall Fund, a U.S. think tank.”

Interestingly, in the past, the Russian disinformation accounts also occasionally posted pro-vaccine messages, to give the illusion of genuine controversy, while attempting to exploit a wedge issue and foment social discord, erode trust in public health institutions, and elicit mistrust of pharmaceutical companies.

Further evidence of Russia’s intentions was established by the 2017 Tweets from Russian troll accounts discovered by New Knowledge’s DiResta, which created a synergistic link between vaccine denial and U.S. racial divides. For example, “Diseases Expert Calls for White Genocide Since Most Vaccine Deniers are White” was tweeted by several Russian trolls. DiResta believes the Russians’ motive is “opportunism—opportunistically amplifying controversial topics,” but the bottom line is that Russian agitprop campaigns seek to stoke controversy over vaccination to both divide and injure Americans.

Russia’s disinformation about vaccines, particularly during a historic viral pandemic, has severe consequences, not least of which is promoting skepticism about the pronouncements of public health, medical, and scientific experts, and encouraging “vaccine hesitancy”—with the palpable damage that results. More Americans will become infected, more viral mutants will emerge, and control of the pandemic will be more elusive.

More at Pacific Research Institute

There are many more links in the piece.

[Chris]

I think the 'Russia done it' argument is just a strawman. They always get the blame whenever the US establishment fucks up, as they have in this case.

No, this massive fuck-up is entirely the USA's fault with a helping hand from China.

At this point, I am frankly disgusted by the "elite" leading both countries, they've really put us in a bit of a pickle with their escaped bioweapon and their engineered "solution", a vaccine that is not only highly ineffective but dangerous too.

I am most disappointed with the "Science" as represented by Anthony Fauci, Peter Daszak and their Chinese accomplices. "The science" should be put behind bars for a very long time and never again allowed to "work on" manipulating highly dangerous pathogens. We haven't even started having a conversation on how unacceptable gain of function research is for the future of humanity.

Since the genie has been let out of the bottle, I support any solution that has a fighting chance of combatting it, but frankly, the vaccines just don't cut it, that much is becoming increasingly obvious.

As for the United States, what Biden has done with Vaccine mandates and his overreach in terms of threatening to remove democratically elected governors if they don't fall in line, by invoking the Insurrection Act, I don't see how Governors of almost half the US states who oppose this have any other choice, but to actually lead an insurrection against the increasingly tyrannical federal government.

First, they will do so using legal means, if that fails, they might have to escalate the conflict with the Federal Government using state militias. I hope cooler heads will prevail before that happens.

It seems we are very close to the point, where those that refuse to take up the experimental vaccine "the science" has concocted, probably in the same lab and at the same time they dreamed up their pet bioweapon, will not be able to buy, sell, work or even go out in public, unless they comply. I don't see how the people who are put into this impossible situation will have any other choice, but to organise an armed rebellion against the tyrannical federal government. I know, I would rather fight than be allowed to put in such an impossible situation, a surefire path towards penury and starvation.

I am also beginning to wonder whether this is the actual apocalypse we are witnessing right now. Talk of the "Mark of the Beast", without which no person can buy or sell just doesn't seem like crazy-talk any more and I am not the least bit religious. Also, the Satanic Temple just came out against the Texas anti-abortion bill, arguing that it restricts their religious rights to sacrifice babies to Satan in what they call an abortion ritual.

I wish I was making that one up, but it appears to be genuine, even if in their press release they try to pretend, unsuccessfully, in my view, that they are just secularists using Satan as a symbol or metaphor. Yeah, right...

[Chris]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...suggests-study

Boys more at risk from Pfizer jab side-effect than Covid, suggests study

US researchers say teenagers are more likely to get vaccine-related myocarditis than end up in hospital with Covid

Healthy boys may be more likely to be admitted to hospital with a rare side-effect of the Pfizer/BioNTech Covid vaccine that causes inflammation of the heart than with Covid itself, US researchers claim.

Their analysis of medical data suggests that boys aged 12 to 15, with no underlying medical conditions, are four to six times more likely to be diagnosed with vaccine-related myocarditis than ending up in hospital with Covid over a four-month period.

Most children who experienced the rare side-effect had symptoms within days of the second shot of Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine, though a similar side-effect is seen with the Moderna jab. About 86% of the boys affected required some hospital care, the authors said.

Saul Faust, professor of paediatric immunology and infectious diseases at the University of Southampton, who was not involved in the work, said the findings appeared to justify the cautious approach taken on teenage vaccines by the UK’s Joint Committee on Vaccines and Immunisation.

The JCVI did not recommend vaccinating healthy 12 to 15-year-olds, but referred the matter to the UK’s chief medical officers who are expected to make a final decision next week. Children aged 12 to 15 who are particularly vulnerable to Covid, or who live with an at-risk person, are eligible for the shots.

In the latest study, which has yet to be peer reviewed, Dr Tracy Høeg at the University of California and colleagues analysed adverse reactions to Covid vaccines in US children aged 12 to 17 during the first six months of 2021. They estimate the rate of myocarditis after two shots of Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine to be 162.2 cases per million for healthy boys aged 12 to 15 and 94 cases per million for healthy boys aged 16 to 17. The equivalent rates for girls were 13.4 and 13 cases per million, respectively. At current US infection rates, the risk of a healthy adolescent being taken to hospital with Covid in the next 120 days is about 44 per million, they said.

How reliable the data is and whether similar numbers could be seen in the UK if healthy 12 to 15-year-olds are vaccinated are unclear: vaccine reactions are recorded differently in the US and shots are given at longer time intervals in the UK. According to the UK medicines regulator, the rate of myocarditis after Covid vaccination is only six per million shots of Pfizer/BioNTech.

So far, UK children have not been admitted to hospital for Covid in large numbers and may not be at great risk of long Covid. While the recent Clock study found that up to 14% of children who caught Covid may still have symptoms 15 weeks later, levels of fatigue appear similar to those in children who have not caught the virus. This suggests that children may be spared some of the most debilitating problems seen in adult long Covid.

The overwhelming majority of myocarditis appears after the second dose of vaccine, so offering single shots could protect children while reducing their risk of the side effect even further.

“While myocarditis after vaccination is exceptionally rare, we may be able to change the first or second doses or combine vaccines differently to avoid the risk at all, once we understand the physiology better,” said Prof Faust. “On balance, there is no urgency to immunise children from a medical perspective, although if schools are unable to maintain education for the vast majority at all times, the overall balance could shift. If my two teenage children are offered the vaccine by the NHS my GP wife and I will have no hesitation in allowing them to receive the vaccine.”

Prof Adam Finn, a member of JCVI at the University of Bristol, said: “I stand by the JCVI advice, which is not to go ahead at this time with vaccinating healthy 12 to 15-year-olds on health outcome risk-benefit grounds given the current uncertainty – as there is a small but plausible risk that rare harms could turn out to outweigh modest benefits.”

[Emil El Zapato]

The right is doing their thing, which is pretending to be sane by projecting its own wishes on the left. Armed insurrection? That's 30% of the population against 70%. The sanity and the BIG weapons are on the left and within the sane right. The U.S. will not sacrifice 30% of their population to 'maintain' control. The 30% would certainly sacrifice 70% of the population to keep their 'freedom'. The 70% which are sane comprised of both the right and the left will take incremental measures which could potentially leave the 30% with their own country, which incidentally, has been predicted for many years now. Starting where else, in Russia, the global strawman. Strawman or the crux of the biscuit, take your choice, it won't matter. If the 30% act in typical hard right fashion will not be satisfied with 'just' their own country, they will want it all and at that point rather than strategically dying to keep their freedom (from disease, famine, internecine warfare ... I've been wanting to use that word, ) they will go out with a bang and a whimper. And, dare I say it, the globe might just be a better place without that subspecies around. I know, I know, spoken like a true Homo Sapiens.

[Dreamtimer]

Russia will interfere with the US as much and as long as it can. It's so easy now. They have entree they never used to have.

Why folks want to downplay rhetoric and propaganda which is currently serving its purpose is beyond me. We're being played. Our anxiety and emotions are being played way too easily.

I will continue to point it out as it's doing great damage and I don't like it.

[Dreamtimer]

You're right, BOB. Secession, which is how I interpret your words, has been on some folks minds for quite some time now. (Stupidest thing I can think of. Let's divide ourselves, chop up our economy, and pretend we'll be stronger. I have a bridge AND a bill of sale for those folks).

And you're also right in that it won't be enough. It never is. They'll never be satisfied and the 'other folks' will always be responsible for their misery. There's no personal responsibility anymore in the politics of the right. It's all about blaming the left and vengeance.

That's why Trump tracks. "If I can't have it, nobody can!"

Burn it down!

We've seen threats from McCarthy, Cawthorn and many many more.

I really think these folks should be paying the price for violations of the US Code. They say they're law and order. And then they show their true colors.