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Thread: Coronavirus with an R0 of 3 or beyond

  1. #1336
    Senior Member BeastOfBologna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    Correction, the vaccines don't even stop you from getting sick yourself, they just reduce the risk of serious illness, hospitalisation and death. That's all.

    This is why vaccine mandates are pretty useless, they don't do anything, in fact they may make the situation worse by forcing people out of crucial jobs and creating further staff shortages.

    If you ask me, the whole vaccine narrative has collapsed, no sane person believes the fantastical claims made by pharma industry cheerleaders any more. On a personal note, my niece has just been sick with covid, even though she received her second dose of Pfizer more than a month ago. She spread the disease to my nephew, who was too young to be vaccinated as per current guidelines. What a useless Piece of Shit this vaccine turned out to be, not at all what they promised a year ago. You would pretty much have to take monthly booster shots in perpetuity for it to have any noticeable effects, but that is exactly what big pharma would want, meanwhile they actively suppress any bad news about the unacceptably high numbers of dead and injured due to the vaccine.
    But that leaves herd immunity as the only viable alternative? We all know what that means. We 'should' do what we have to do. I know that a psychologist and an anarchist would both say there is no such thing as should. Nonetheless, it is a should for me.
    “To seek self-knowledge is to embark on a journey which ... will always be incomplete" - courtesy of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

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  3. #1337
    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    Herd immunity includes vaccine use.

    We are losing our herd immunity to diseases like measles and mumps due to folks not getting vaccinated.

    If all we needed were our immune systems we wouldn't have any vaccines or antibiotics. Why bother? Oh yeah, potential damage to organ systems, debilitation, and death.

    No one said the vaccines protect from any infection. That's not what they do. They work to help the body fight off the disease before it has a chance to ravage the body. Before it has a chance to mutate. Before it has a chance to replicate itself massively.

    If folks who are vaccinated can spread virus, then they and other folks damn well should mask up, that's what you do, and whomever can should get the shot.

    Otherwise, all the hard-blowing about herd immunity is meaningless.

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  5. #1338
    Super Moderator Wind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    This is why vaccine mandates are pretty useless, they don't do anything, in fact they may make the situation worse by forcing people out of crucial jobs and creating further staff shortages.
    Personally I detest the idea of forcing anyone to do anything. It simply is wrong.


    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMbI6Nal1jY

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  7. #1339
    Senior Member BeastOfBologna's Avatar
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    How about stopping someone from doing something, Wind. A lack of social responsibility is a pretty big societal problem. In the extreme we call that psychopathy. A naive child should never be forced to do anything, but they should be guided. If 'anyone' evidences a lack of 'awareness', let us call it God given sense in all its connotations (which includes a sincere concern for one's neighbors) should not society find a 'reasonable' mechanism for protecting them from themselves and to others?

    Some religious sects don't believe in health measures at all, so be it, but if they have a child that is potentially dying from an illness, should society take actions to save the child? In effect, forcing the parents to act against their own wishes.

    It's that point where philosophical rubber hits the proverbial asphalt. I draw that line in all things. When my philosophical viewpoint is counter to another's and my philosophical perspective is causing physical, not existential harm, then I give.

    I'm not the most important thing in the universe.

    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    Personally I detest the idea of forcing anyone to do anything. It simply is wrong.


    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMbI6Nal1jY
    In view of that video, it is plain to see that global society has a long ways to go to learning how to deal with what are essentially new threats to the species. Calling all Aliens! Calling all Aliens!
    “To seek self-knowledge is to embark on a journey which ... will always be incomplete" - courtesy of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

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  9. #1340
    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    We now have an uptick in folks refusing flu shots. There was never a time when flu shots were politicized. But now...

    About 20 years ago I was taking a class where we discussed vaccine resistance. It was focused on the MMR vaccine, measles, mumps, rubella. There has been that 'fear of autism' factor around since before then. My state's solution was to allow for religious exemption. We discussed the long-term problem of more and more kids spreading these dangerous diseases in the future.

    No one saw resistance to flu shots coming. Well, I did. Because I could see how the irrational was increasing here, rather than decreasing. I worked hard to help my son learn to think for himself because I knew he would desperately need that skill. I can breathe a sigh of relief for that anyway.

    We're going to have infectious diseases running rampant on this trajectory of rejection of mainstream knowledge.

    I personally have no desire to live in a system where medicine is a matter of popularity contests, and armchair experts are recommending bathing in borax.

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  11. #1341
    Senior Member BeastOfBologna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    We now have an uptick in folks refusing flu shots. There was never a time when flu shots were politicized. But now...

    About 20 years ago I was taking a class where we discussed vaccine resistance. It was focused on the MMR vaccine, measles, mumps, rubella. There has been that 'fear of autism' factor around since before then. My state's solution was to allow for religious exemption. We discussed the long-term problem of more and more kids spreading these dangerous diseases in the future.

    No one saw resistance to flu shots coming. Well, I did. Because I could see how the irrational was increasing here, rather than decreasing. I worked hard to help my son learn to think for himself because I knew he would desperately need that skill. I can breathe a sigh of relief for that anyway.

    We're going to have infectious diseases running rampant on this trajectory of rejection of mainstream knowledge.

    I personally have no desire to live in a system where medicine is a matter of popularity contests, and armchair experts are recommending bathing in borax.
    Yes, we have truly lost our minds.

    Time for a reread folks, it was all laid out in aces and spades in the late 60's

    The Population Bomb is a 1968 book written by Stanford University Professor Paul R. Ehrlich and his wife, Anne Ehrlich (who was uncredited). It predicted worldwide famine in the 1970s and 1980s due to overpopulation, as well as other major societal upheavals, and advocated immediate action to limit population growth.
    “To seek self-knowledge is to embark on a journey which ... will always be incomplete" - courtesy of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

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  13. #1342
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    I am generally, pro-vaccine. Vaccinations have saved billions of lives since they were introduced and have wiped out some of the worst diseases in Human history, such as Polio and Smallpox.

    When it comes to Covid, or for that matter Flu vaccines, I am somewhat on the fence. In both cases, their effectiveness is questionable. In the case of Covid shots, the situation is compounded by the fact, that most do not work like traditional vaccines, but are best thought of as experimental gene therapies, where the long-term effects are unknown and the general population must act as Guinea pigs.

    I'd be happy to take inactivated virus vaccines as many times as is necessary to stop this pandemic, but I'm far more circumspect when it comes to the gene-therapy like vaccinations that are are more commonly used in the West. The evidence suggests that they are far more dangerous than traditional vaccines, with tens of thousands of reported deaths and serious injuries in the US and EU alone. Sure, far less than the 5 million reported deaths from covid, but still not a negligible risk and this is just short-term, we have no idea what the long-term effects will be in terms of Myocarditis, Blood clots and potential infertility in women. Those spike proteins are nasty little buggers and they may accumulate and stay embedded in capillary blood vessels and the uterus for much longer than we currently think.

    As for Flu vaccines, unless you are in a high-risk group, it makes little sense to get vaccinated in my view.

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  15. #1343
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    I know folks, including my husband who regularly get flu shots. My sister-in-law, a nurse, and my cousin, the highest level RN you can be, both recommend them.

    I have never made it a habit to get a flu shot. But I can see the sense for folks at risk. The flu does kill many people a year. It makes sense to try to mitigate the illness, particularly if you are at risk.

    My husband worked with at-risk folks so he wants to protect them as much as himself.

    When I worked with children I'd regularly get sick. Because viruses mutate. A person could never develop immunity to all infectious agents out there because they constantly change.

    I have a friend who's super vulnerable to strep throat and any time he gets a sore throat he gets antibiotics from his doctor, who knows his vulnerability.

    People make their choices based on their physiology and hopefully their own, qualified physician.

    As I get older, I will likely begin to take more preventive measures, such as the flu shot. If I catch the flu, then my body is occupied and my immune system is working overtime and there is not enough resistance left for other infections. So I would need to be more careful and take precautions like a flu shot. And a shingles vaccine.

    And a Covid booster.
    Last edited by Dreamtimer, 20th November 2021 at 15:47.

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  17. #1344
    Senior Member BeastOfBologna's Avatar
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    “To seek self-knowledge is to embark on a journey which ... will always be incomplete" - courtesy of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

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  19. #1345
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    This offering by Beau addresses the risk/benefit analysis related to taking the vaccine(s). He talks about good ways to approach the discussion and sources of information used widely.

    Common concerns about vaccine poisons often turn out to be unfounded as the feared element is not in fact found in the vaccine(s).

    Looking at VAERS, even without removing irrelevant and unfounded claims, and comparing to actual deaths from the virus, it's magnitudes worse with the virus.


    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obvaoJORHYg


    IMO, considering how gung-ho folks are about other drugs and off-label uses, it makes no sense to complain about being 'experimented on'.

    They consent to that every time they go off-label with use of a drug. And that happens all the time. Maybe later, enough studies will have been done that the new use of the drug is approved.

    Until then, they're being 'guinea pigs' every time they do it.

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  21. #1346
    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    Because you will likely not hear this being reported in mainstream or alternate media, here's an account from the frontline in rural America.

    Just a little update from purgatory.

    My little rural hospital is now officially in crisis. Inpatient census is 120% of capacity with gasping coughing COVID patients packed into every available nook and cranny. All surgical procedures were put on hold this week because there’s nowhere to put post-operative patients, and the OR nurses have been drafted for COVID care. Wait times in the ER now average 2-6 hours as the ER nurses and docs are also caring for numerous COVID patients boarding in the ER for lack of beds upstairs. Everything is gridlocked because desperately ill COVID patients take weeks to months to improve, or die, before their bed is freed up for the next person.

    The ICU is full, every room occupied by a COVID patient on a ventilator. We had to borrow more ventilators from the nearest city at the end of last week, and they’re already in use. As of last week the closest open ICU bed was 250 miles away, in the State capitol. On the brighter side, I now know who to call and what to do for expedited authorization for Emergency Use Authorization treatments like Baricitinib; the Infectious Disease Department gurus in the city have learned to trust our judgement and we no longer have to beg.

    Every hospital floor is a frenzy of beeping monitors, terrified wailing patients and harried, overworked nurses. The hospital isn’t doing Regeneron antibody infusions for the simple reason that there isn’t a single open room or space that could be dedicated to infusions that doesn’t have a COVID patient in it already. I have twice come upon nurse practitioners quietly crying at their desk.

    And we’re just starting to see the incoming post-Thanksgiving Tsunami. Two days ago I saw numerous patients in my office with respiratory symptoms, and I swabbed them all. So far ~30% have come back positive for COVID, and I don’t have all the results yet, so the final percentage will likely be higher. Add another week for decompensating patients and….next week is looking very, very grim right now.

    Despite all this, the overwhelming majority of people in our communities have absolutely no clue about the catastrophe unfolding right here. Two of the three mainstream network television stations in the nearby city are Sinclair media, and the other is Fox. They do a brief bland update on local numbers now and then, before moving on to lurid crime reports, never (ever!) showing viewers what a hell-scape all the regional hospitals are right now. When patients in the office ask me “How’s it going at the hospital?”, they are invariably stunned, shocked into silence, when I tell them.

    And yet I still every single day get rancid push-back from multiple Trump-loving anti-vaxxers when I suggest that maybe, just maybe, they should protect their children and vulnerable frail parents by getting vaccinated, rather than delivering COVID to them for Christmas.
    The derangement is strong with these ones...

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  23. #1347
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    My perspective on vaccines hasn't changed, I believe there's craziness on both sides and the issue has been politicised.

    Just as an instance, here in Hungary, they are probably going to mandate third vaccines from January. I have had covid and recovered from it, got Sinopharm shots, did an antibody test recently and my levels are very high. By all accounts, I should be fully protected against covid, yet, come January, if I don't get a third shot, they will take away my vaccine passport, despite all of the above. It is absolute craziness.

    I've already decided I'm not going to take a third shot, it is completely pointless. My sister shares my thinking (though she got covid for a second time just a couple of weeks ago).

    The authorities can push their vaccine propaganda all they want, the facts are as follows:
    - The vaccines are far less effective than they were advertised and not nearly as good as natural immunity (this is a basic epidemiological fact, that has now apparently become anti-science).
    - They don't protect you against infection or spreading the disease. In fact, because you are more likely to have mild symptoms or none at all, the vaccinated are more likely to spread the disease.
    - The vaccines (with the possible exception of Sinopharm, possibly Sputnik) are incredibly unsafe by usual standards. If we weren't in the midst of a pandemic, there is no way that these shots would be allowed on the market.

    Just some further facts on the dangers of covid vaccines:
    - Astrazeneca was trialled in the US, but there were so many vaccine injuries, that they stopped the trials, it is in effect, banned in the US. Are we supposed to accept it is completely safe then?
    - Moderna was banned for wide age groups in several European countries, for causing myocarditis, a weakening of the heart muscle. This is essentially a death sentence, anyone with Myocarditis needs a heart transplant within 5 years, or they'll die. Is that a small risk?
    - News of vaccine injuries and deaths are actively suppressed by the Authorities and the Media. There have been tens of thousands, yet not one case has made it into the media and we are not allowed to discuss it. Victims, whose numbers are countless at this point, have to suffer in silence and don't get the care they need, because of Vaccine bias. Even doctors refuse to believe what is in front of their eyes, that these vaccines are untested and experimental, basically gene therapies, and their effects are poorly understood.

    What I listed above is all factual. None of that was made up by Kooky conspiracy theorists. Real people are suffering en masse due to this. With this is a background, vaccine mandates are coming and there is a real possibility of mass internment of the unvaccinated. They are already under house arrest 5 miles from me, in neighbouring Austria. This medical Tyranny has been swallowed whole by the majority of the population and it is disgusting and unjust.

    I'll leave you with this video, if you are willing to challenge your own confirmation biases and take a fresh look at the vaccine issue with an open mind:


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  25. #1348
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    There's still the traditional choice, the Johnson & Johnson. The risk analysis leans heavily towards vaccination. The deaths from vaccines are a tiny drop compared to the COVID deaths.

    Drowning in your own lungs is a terrible, terrible way to go.

    Now that we have folks drinking black goo, excuse me, BOO, I'm not too sympathetic about the claims of being a guinea pig. If folks are willing to bathe in borax or nebulize H2O2, the concerns over the newer vaccines become more and more meaningless.

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    Senior Member BeastOfBologna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    My perspective on vaccines hasn't changed, I believe there's craziness on both sides and the issue has been politicised.

    Just as an instance, here in Hungary, they are probably going to mandate third vaccines from January. I have had covid and recovered from it, got Sinopharm shots, did an antibody test recently and my levels are very high. By all accounts, I should be fully protected against covid, yet, come January, if I don't get a third shot, they will take away my vaccine passport, despite all of the above. It is absolute craziness.

    I've already decided I'm not going to take a third shot, it is completely pointless. My sister shares my thinking (though she got covid for a second time just a couple of weeks ago).

    The authorities can push their vaccine propaganda all they want, the facts are as follows:
    - The vaccines are far less effective than they were advertised and not nearly as good as natural immunity (this is a basic epidemiological fact, that has now apparently become anti-science).
    - They don't protect you against infection or spreading the disease. In fact, because you are more likely to have mild symptoms or none at all, the vaccinated are more likely to spread the disease.
    - The vaccines (with the possible exception of Sinopharm, possibly Sputnik) are incredibly unsafe by usual standards. If we weren't in the midst of a pandemic, there is no way that these shots would be allowed on the market.

    Just some further facts on the dangers of covid vaccines:
    - Astrazeneca was trialled in the US, but there were so many vaccine injuries, that they stopped the trials, it is in effect, banned in the US. Are we supposed to accept it is completely safe then?
    - Moderna was banned for wide age groups in several European countries, for causing myocarditis, a weakening of the heart muscle. This is essentially a death sentence, anyone with Myocarditis needs a heart transplant within 5 years, or they'll die. Is that a small risk?
    - News of vaccine injuries and deaths are actively suppressed by the Authorities and the Media. There have been tens of thousands, yet not one case has made it into the media and we are not allowed to discuss it. Victims, whose numbers are countless at this point, have to suffer in silence and don't get the care they need, because of Vaccine bias. Even doctors refuse to believe what is in front of their eyes, that these vaccines are untested and experimental, basically gene therapies, and their effects are poorly understood.

    What I listed above is all factual. None of that was made up by Kooky conspiracy theorists. Real people are suffering en masse due to this. With this is a background, vaccine mandates are coming and there is a real possibility of mass internment of the unvaccinated. They are already under house arrest 5 miles from me, in neighbouring Austria. This medical Tyranny has been swallowed whole by the majority of the population and it is disgusting and unjust.

    I'll leave you with this video, if you are willing to challenge your own confirmation biases and take a fresh look at the vaccine issue with an open mind:

    It is why even the vaccinated should wear masks to protect others. I've had 3 shots and always wear a mask. I kind of like the idea of being a bandito. But seriously, my nephew is a Trumpster...I love the kid but he is on the lower end of the I.Q. gene pool in the clan, he won't be vaccinated because it isn't one hundred percent effective. He asked me why I did and I said because it is 99% effective.

    There are lots of reasons to say f*ck it, but it just makes sense to me to try to do what is right for all of us, in my mind that means to cooperate, I'm not relinquishing any autonomy simply because I choose to do it. I learned long ago that I can do anything I like for the most part and get away with it, if i so choose. Sometimes I decide not to take advantage of that reality.
    “To seek self-knowledge is to embark on a journey which ... will always be incomplete" - courtesy of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

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  29. #1350
    Senior Member BeastOfBologna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by BeastOfBologna View Post
    It is why even the vaccinated should wear masks to protect others. I've had 3 shots and always wear a mask. I kind of like the idea of being a bandito. But seriously, my nephew is a Trumpster...I love the kid but he is on the lower end of the I.Q. gene pool in the clan, he won't be vaccinated because it isn't one hundred percent effective. He asked me why I did and I said because it is 99% effective.

    There are lots of reasons to say f*ck it, but it just makes sense to me to try to do what is right for all of us, in my mind that means to cooperate, I'm not relinquishing any autonomy simply because I choose to do it. I learned long ago that I can do anything I like for the most part and get away with it, if i so choose. Sometimes I decide not to take advantage of that reality.
    Where are the people whose entire families were saved by the vaccination? Masks! Masks! Masks!
    “To seek self-knowledge is to embark on a journey which ... will always be incomplete" - courtesy of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

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