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Thread: Coronavirus with an R0 of 3 or beyond

  1. #121
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    Now that the epidemic in China is slowing due to aggressive Quarantine measures and similar measures will probably have an effect in South Korea and Italy, my main concern currently is the United States and the complete lack of planning and honesty. There has effectively been no testing for SARS-CoV-2 in the last 3 weeks and many experts estimate there are already thousands of undiagnosed cases. The below article is a really good summary of why the outlook in the US is grim, particularly in comparison with countries that have "socialised" healthcare and paid sick leave. America's hypercapitalist society is likely to become a huge liability in a deadly epidemic.

    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/soci...ing-conditions

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  3. #122
    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    Now that the epidemic in China is slowing due to aggressive Quarantine measures and similar measures will probably have an effect in South Korea and Italy, my main concern currently is the United States and the complete lack of planning and honesty. There has effectively been no testing for SARS-CoV-2 in the last 3 weeks and many experts estimate there are already thousands of undiagnosed cases. The below article is a really good summary of why the outlook in the US is grim, particularly in comparison with countries that have "socialised" healthcare and paid sick leave. America's hypercapitalist society is likely to become a huge liability in a deadly epidemic.

    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/soci...ing-conditions
    I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with that. The incompetence and reactionary dishonesty of the Trump administration are not only going to cost the USA very dearly, but it'll also become a serious hazard to people's health and survival in rest of the world. And the USA being the USA, they don't even properly understand what the words "the rest of the world" mean.

    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  5. #123
    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Well, as the U.S. is currently in league with the dark side...there is some hope. There is uncertainty regarding the severity of the virus, i heard and read of some speculation that in the U.S. and most of the world actually, it will be milder in its physical impact. Time will tell, I suppose...Not to encouraging to me for a number of reasons is that my psychologist half-sister in California is pretty rattled. She is very respected the way I understand it (was a candidate for the best doctor/shrink in California...plenty of personal experience, which is another thing that we have in common) but if she is upset...i dunno...what to say...
    "A large infusion of cash will cure most forms of fanatacism" - Thumbnail Biographies

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  7. #124
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    It seems that the government response, strength and trust in institutions as well as the robustness of the Healthcare System are what really matter.

    Amazingly Singapore has not had a single death so far, despite having over a hundred cases. That will probably change, but they can probably keep the death rate below 1 percent. On the other hand, look at Iran, just total chaos and incompetence. I have a feeling that the USA's response is going to be more like what you see in Iran, as opposed to Singapore's (and Taiwan's) openness and transparency.

    Also, people forced to stay home for months on end, with no pay, is going to be a serious problem. I think this epidemic is going to expose some of the long-simmering underlying issues and they will look very ugly indeed under the light of day.

    In my own country, the increasingly decrepit healthcare system, which has been neglected for three decades, is probably just going to collapse under the weight of the epidemic. The UK's NHS is looking better, but it is already close to breaking point, because of a decade of cutbacks and defunding, I wonder, how it's going to perform under such stress.

    Also, what I hear from Germany is appalling, the head of their CDC just told reporters that masks are useless, nobody should be wearing gloves and that the virus isn't airborne. I mean, the rank incompetence just boggles the mind. How did these people ever get into their current positions?

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  9. #125
    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    Perhaps they got into their positions in the way that Trump appointees are here. They have no experience or expertise, but they are willing to bootlick. This sort of corruption leads to incompetence followed by failures. The knee-jerk is to just blame the government itself with no analysis of how we got to the state we're in.

    Ironically, this virus is causing many more to support universal health care. Trump's bluster cannot overshadow folks families getting ill and possibly dying.

    We have also 'starved the beast' here. We will be paying the price in myriad ways. Privatization has never been the magical solution it's made out to be.

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  11. #126
    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    Ironically, this virus is causing many more to support universal health care.
    Cue the "It's engineered by the NWO to get us to vote for the Democrats!" cries.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  13. #127
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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Cue the "It's engineered by the NWO to get us to vote for the Democrats!" cries.
    It's actually interesting to listen to the US far-right on this issue, particularly the Infowars and Natural news crew. On the one hand, they exposed some of the major issues surrounding the epidemic weeks before it broke the mainstream, on the other, some of the language they use is so paranoid, it boggles the mind.

    I've noticed many over at PA are also influenced by far-right paranoia. Usually it's about 5G (the modern version of CIA mind-control waves and tinfoil hats) and how it is actually causing or at least enhancing the coronavirus epidemic. I've noticed that even Bill has lost patience with the hopelessly stupid, who think radio waves can be responsible for viral infections.

    Of course the narrative over at alt-right headquarters is increasingly about the "Chicoms" and the "NWO" or globalists having engineered this crisis for their own ends, whatever they may be (that one is never entirely clear and changes with the weather and the direction of the wind that day).

    It is entertaining when they start talking about the Satanist Paedophile Reptilian Interdimensional Communist Demonrat conspiracy to take American's guns away from them and that Bernistas would start executing people on the street immediately after seizing power in a Bolshevist revolution (how, when they have no guns? But never mind such details). But, it has real-world consequences when alt news outlets so close to the current administration (especially through Roger Stone) literally demonise people on the left (they just refer to them as demons now, with any pretence towards civility long gone) and talk about them in such disparaging and malevolent terms. It really reminds me of the kind of language that was used by the perpetrators of major genocides before they made their move.

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  15. #128
    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Of course, projection coupled with propaganda and paranoia is a wonderful tool for self-destruction...We can call them the 3 P's
    "A large infusion of cash will cure most forms of fanatacism" - Thumbnail Biographies

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  17. #129
    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    It's actually interesting to listen to the US far-right on this issue, particularly the Infowars and Natural news crew. On the one hand, they exposed some of the major issues surrounding the epidemic weeks before it broke the mainstream, on the other, some of the language they use is so paranoid, it boggles the mind.

    I've noticed many over at PA are also influenced by far-right paranoia. Usually it's about 5G (the modern version of CIA mind-control waves and tinfoil hats) and how it is actually causing or at least enhancing the coronavirus epidemic. I've noticed that even Bill has lost patience with the hopelessly stupid, who think radio waves can be responsible for viral infections.
    Yes, that is correct. Bill has been vehemently rejecting the lunatic conspiracies about COVID-19 having anything to do with 5G ─ or even that there is no virus and that it's all just the effect of 5G ─ but the lunacy continues raving on.

    The fringe conspiracy theorists ─ whom we can virtually all categorize as far-right now ─ don't even listen to Bill anymore, nor to anyone else with common sense. They've already long made up their minds, based upon a deadly mixture of ignorance, prejudice, paranoia and knee-jerking. Things are no different now with this "5G is/causes COVID-19" madness from how it was during the QAnon craze that split the Project Avalon mod room in half and caused somewhat of a member revolt against all objectivity.

    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    Of course the narrative over at alt-right headquarters is increasingly about the "Chicoms" and the "NWO" or globalists having engineered this crisis for their own ends, whatever they may be (that one is never entirely clear and changes with the weather and the direction of the wind that day).

    It is entertaining when they start talking about the Satanist Paedophile Reptilian Interdimensional Communist Demonrat conspiracy to take American's guns away from them and that Bernistas would start executing people on the street immediately after seizing power in a Bolshevist revolution (how, when they have no guns? But never mind such details). But, it has real-world consequences when alt news outlets so close to the current administration (especially through Roger Stone) literally demonise people on the left (they just refer to them as demons now, with any pretence towards civility long gone) and talk about them in such disparaging and malevolent terms. It really reminds me of the kind of language that was used by the perpetrators of major genocides before they made their move.
    I was talking about racism and fascism with someone at the Manjaro forum a few weeks ago, and he explained that the whole conspiracy theory about reptilian shapeshifters originated from the far-right as a metaphor for the Jews. Take the phrase "Reptilians control the world" and replace the word "reptilians" by "Jews". The reptilian narrative was in fact simply created as a way for the far-right to stigmatize the Jews without actually having to use the name and risk prosecution over racism. Because hating on the Jews is punishable by law, but hating on reptilians is not.

    And it's true. Just look at all the vicious conspiracy theories that have been floating about in these last 15 years. From satanic pedophiles and reptilians over Pizzagate to Michelle Obama allegedly being a male transvestite and her husband being a cocaine-addicted homosexual, all of it came from the far-right. Which should come as no surprise, because the far-right ideology centers on intolerance, hatred, strife and competition.

    And that then brings us to the main difference between left-wing ideologies and right-wing ideologies. Left-wing ideologies are about collaboration, and this requires brain, whereas right-wing ideologies are about competition, and this requires brawn. Or otherwise put, the left is about acting from intelligence, and the right is about acting from the fight-or-flight reflex.

    But now I'm drifting off-topic. It's only tangentially related, because the right-wing ─ and especially the far-right ─ is where these ludicrous conspiracy theories come from. And the irony of it all is that the very existence of such idiotic theories ─ cfr. the Flat Earth meme ─ is what completely stigmatizes honest conspiracy research and even honest UFO research in the eyes of the mainstream. The reactionary far-right conspiracy nuts are soiling the waters for every serious researcher, and by consequence, actual conspirators are able to get away with what they're doing, as opposed to that they would get exposed, arrested, convicted and sent to jail.

    If it weren't for the fact that I am an administrator at three alternative community forums and that my technical abilities are needed to keep these forums running smoothly, I would have already turned my back on this entire community quite a while ago, specifically because of the idiots who are muddying the waters and spoiling the actual research for everyone else.

    Too many lies, too many egos and too many agendas. As if life wasn't difficult enough already without that nonsense. Homo Sapiens Sapiens is his own worst enemy.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  19. #130
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    Yes, I share your sentiments.

    To be honest, I think there's usually a grain of truth in most conspiracy theories, it's just difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff and intelligence services encourage confusion and batshit craziness to muddy the waters and discredit whatever part of the conspiracy theory might be factual.

    The left-right dichotomy is interesting, it goes really deep I think, involving things like which hemisphere of the brain is dominant, sexual promiscuity vs monogamy, patriarchy vs matriarchy, lunar vs solar religious cults and figures, the Left-hand path vs right-hand path in spirituality, etc...

    I have also noticed that even ancient deities get drawn into it, with the David Ickes, Corey Goodes and Simon Parkes' of this world insisting that Anu and his children, the Anunnaki were reptilians, when all the evidence points to the contrary.

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  21. #131
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    I'd say that the left is also acting from compassion whereas the right is from selfishness, even though that's a bit of a generalization.

    It's true that this virus has already affected us quite a lot.

    Last edited by Wind, 5th March 2020 at 19:25.

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  23. #132
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    The situation in the US is getting ever more interesting.

    They've only just started testing in any significant numbers, despite the disease spreading there unchecked for more than six weeks. Unbelievable.

    Trump is still playing down the disease, claiming that the new WHO official death rate numbers of 3.4 percent are fake news (they're probably optimistic, if anything), that this is some form of Democrat conspiracy to crash the stock market and scupper his re-election chances and that this flu virus (which it isn't, it is a coronavirus, nothing to do with flu) is just a hoax basically and it is way overblown (when in fact, it has been underplayed by the authorities all this time, except, curiously, in the UK, where they really are taking it very seriously indeed and have come up with realistic projections).

    I can't really think of a country where the response has been worse than in the US, it is an unforgivable medical crime that almost no testing was done (or even allowed!) for almost two months, whilst the disease was spreading uncontrollably, especially in the Seattle area and Hawaii. They'll probably find thousands of cases all over the place in the coming weeks, but it will be too late to do anything about it at this point.

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  25. #133
    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    We are talking about the guy who used a sharpie to show that a hurricane was going to hit part of the US which was in fact well out of the way. It caused a bit of panic and folks who tried to tell the truth lost their jobs.

    Folks have lost their collective minds. I wouldn't have thought it would happen so easily in the US, but with the direct injection of fundamentalist religion into politics, here we are.

    They really do want the End Times.

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  27. #134
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    We are talking about the guy who used a sharpie to show that a hurricane was going to hit part of the US which was in fact well out of the way. It caused a bit of panic and folks who tried to tell the truth lost their jobs.

    Folks have lost their collective minds. I wouldn't have thought it would happen so easily in the US, but with the direct injection of fundamentalist religion into politics, here we are.

    They really do want the End Times.
    It's almost like the movie "Idiocracy", except that "Idiocracy" was actually funny. What has been happening in the USA these last four years is not.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  29. #135
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    Yes, maybe you're right DT, though that sort of an end times mentality was more prevalent in the Bush admin and amongst the neocons, I think.

    For all his faults, mr T does not want the world to end and he isn't too keen on war, which is something I really appreciate about him. In terms of actual foreign policy, the previous Republican administration was way worse than the current one. They really had genuine crusader Zeal and deliberately provoked the likes of Russia and China.

    What we're currently dealing with in terms of the CDC and their (non-)response to the epidemic is I think more a case of gross incompetence and the shortcomings of US-style bureaucratic mismanagement in general. They really make other countries, even China, look pretty good by comparison.

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