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Thread: Coronavirus with an R0 of 3 or beyond

  1. #616
    Senior Member United States Chester's Avatar
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    Exclusive: Internal Chinese report warns Beijing faces Tiananmen-like global backlash over virus

    BEIJING (Reuters) - An internal Chinese report warns that Beijing faces a rising wave of hostility in the wake of the coronavirus outbreak that could tip relations with the United States into confrontation, people familiar with the paper told Reuters.

    The report, presented early last month by the Ministry of State Security to top Beijing leaders including President Xi Jinping, concluded that global anti-China sentiment is at its highest since the 1989 Tiananmen Square crackdown, the sources said.

    As a result, Beijing faces a wave of anti-China sentiment led by the United States in the aftermath of the pandemic and needs to be prepared in a worst-case scenario for armed confrontation between the two global powers, according to people familiar with the report’s content, who declined to be identified given the sensitivity of the matter.

    The report was drawn up by the China Institutes of Contemporary International Relations (CICIR), a think tank affiliated with the Ministry of State Security, China’s top intelligence body.

    Reuters has not seen the briefing paper, but it was described by people who had direct knowledge of its findings.

    “I don’t have relevant information,” the Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson’s office said in a statement responding to questions from Reuters on the report.

    China’s Ministry of State Security has no public contact details and could not be reached for comment.

    CICIR, an influential think tank that until 1980 was within the Ministry of State Security and advises the Chinese government on foreign and security policy, did not reply to a request for comment.

    Reuters couldn’t determine to what extent the stark assessment described in the paper reflects positions held by China’s state leaders, and to what extent, if at all, it would influence policy. But the presentation of the report shows how seriously Beijing takes the threat of a building backlash that could threaten what China sees as its strategic investments overseas and its view of its security standing.

    Relations between China and the United States are widely seen to be at their worst point in decades, with deepening mistrust and friction points from U.S. allegations of unfair trade and technology practices to disputes over Hong Kong, Taiwan and contested territories in the South China Sea.

    In recent days, U.S. President Donald Trump, facing a more difficult re-election campaign as the coronavirus has claimed tens of thousands of American lives and ravaged the U.S. economy, has been ramping up his criticism of Beijing and threatening new tariffs on China. His administration, meanwhile, is considering retaliatory measures against China over the outbreak, officials said.

    It is widely believed in Beijing that the United States wants to contain a rising China, which has become more assertive globally as its economy has grown.

    The paper concluded that Washington views China’s rise as an economic and national security threat and a challenge to Western democracies, the people said. The report also said the United States was aiming to undercut the ruling Communist Party by undermining public confidence.

    Chinese officials had a “special responsibility” to inform their people and the world of the threat posed by the coronavirus “since they were the first to learn of it,” U.S. State Department spokeswoman Morgan Ortagus said in response to questions from Reuters.

    Without directly addressing the assessment made in the Chinese report, Ortagus added: “Beijing’s efforts to silence scientists, journalists, and citizens and spread disinformation exacerbated the dangers of this health crisis.”

    A spokesman for the U.S. National Security Council declined to comment.
    REPERCUSSIONS

    The report described to Reuters warned that anti-China sentiment sparked by the coronavirus could fuel resistance to China’s Belt and Road infrastructure investment projects, and that Washington could step up financial and military support for regional allies, making the security situation in Asia more volatile.

    Three decades ago, in the aftermath of Tiananmen, the United States and many Western governments imposed sanctions against China including banning or restricting arms sales and technology transfers.

    China is far more powerful nowadays.

    Xi has revamped China’s military strategy to create a fighting force equipped to win modern wars. He is expanding China’s air and naval reach in a challenge to more than 70 years of U.S. military dominance in Asia.

    In its statement, China’s foreign ministry called for cooperation, saying, “the sound and steady development of China-U.S. relations” serve the interests of both countries and the international community.

    It added: “any words or actions that engage in political manipulation or stigmatization under the pretext of the pandemic, including taking the opportunity to sow discord between countries, are not conducive to international cooperation against the pandemic.”
    COLD WAR ECHOES

    One of those with knowledge of the report said it was regarded by some in the Chinese intelligence community as China’s version of the “Novikov Telegram”, a 1946 dispatch by the Soviet ambassador to Washington, Nikolai Novikov, that stressed the dangers of U.S. economic and military ambition in the wake of World War Two.

    Novikov’s missive was a response to U.S. diplomat George Kennan’s “Long Telegram” from Moscow that said the Soviet Union did not see the possibility for peaceful coexistence with the West, and that containment was the best long-term strategy.
    Slideshow (2 Images)

    The two documents helped set the stage for the strategic thinking that defined both sides of the Cold War.

    China has been accused by the United States of suppressing early information on the virus, which was first detected in the central city of Wuhan, and downplaying its risks.

    Beijing has repeatedly denied that it covered up the extent or severity of the virus outbreak.

    China has managed to contain domestic spread of the virus and has been trying to assert a leading role in the global battle against COVID-19. That has included a propaganda push around its donations and sale of medical supplies to the United States and other countries and sharing of expertise.

    But China faces a growing backlash from critics who have called to hold Beijing accountable for its role in the pandemic.

    Trump has said he will cut off funding for the World Health Organization (WHO), which he called “very China-centric,” something WHO officials have denied.

    Australia’s government has called for an international investigation into the origins and spread of the virus.

    Last month, France summoned China’s ambassador to protest a publication on the website of China’s embassy that criticized Western handling of coronavirus.

    The virus has so far infected more than 3 million people globally and caused more than 200,000 deaths, according to a Reuters tally.
    All the above is all and only my opinion. It may contain some sharing of components of my current operating strategy and some foundational components of my current world view - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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  3. #617
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    Quote Originally posted by Chester View Post
    Just out - watch it before it gets taken down

    I'm curious, why did you post this BS video?

    It had no point or message whatsoever. Just some guy, who claims to be a Doctor, but doesn't know how to pronounce Contagion. And he purposely mischaracterised a statement by the Surgeon General, in which he was clearly talking about God's greater plan in a religious context, as does pretty much every other elected politician in the US and made it into a smoking gun of some grand conspiracy. I could go on but I really don't get what you were trying to get across with this video.

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  5. #618
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Chester View Post
    Just out - watch it before it gets taken down
    that guy is obviously a very stable genius...
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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  7. #619
    Senior Member United States Chester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    I'm curious, why did you post this BS video?

    It had no point or message whatsoever. Just some guy, who claims to be a Doctor, but doesn't know how to pronounce Contagion. And he purposely mischaracterised a statement by the Surgeon General, in which he was clearly talking about God's greater plan in a religious context, as does pretty much every other elected politician in the US and made it into a smoking gun of some grand conspiracy. I could go on but I really don't get what you were trying to get across with this video.
    Well, sometimes I don't know all the reasons in advance... but you have revealed a good one!

    [Here's a hint - "mandatory vaccines are coming to a 'theater' near you."]
    Last edited by Chester, 6th May 2020 at 15:58.
    All the above is all and only my opinion. It may contain some sharing of components of my current operating strategy and some foundational components of my current world view - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

    It's just a ride

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGD...vgBsCHmlC13jOg

    https://www.facebook.com/samhunter57

    http://merlynagain.blogspot.com/

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    A security guard at a Family Dollar in Detroit was shot to death for enforcing a mask policy.

    Shooting people for enforcing store policy which stems from public health policy is not a right. It's a crime.


    If we don't defend public health we won't have an economy to protect. Many people seem to be missing this basic connection.

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  11. #621
    Senior Member United States Chester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    A security guard at a Family Dollar in Detroit was shot to death for enforcing a mask policy.

    Shooting people for enforcing store policy which stems from public health policy is not a right. It's a crime.


    If we don't defend public health we won't have an economy to protect. Many people seem to be missing this basic connection.
    Misrepresenting "draconian measures imposed on all, all and only to extend a single physical life one more second" as "defending public health" dangerously risks killing far more people not to mention the destruction of peoples lives far, far, far more than say, for example, Sweden has accomplished.

    Now, I understand you, DT, did not say that we need to impose "draconian measures imposed on all, all and only to extend a single physical life one more second," but I say to you and anyone... if you are not willing to have the full conversation, you forfeit relevancy of any voice you may believe you have. Idiots exist everywhere, including an idiot that went to Family Dollar and shot a security guard. But where is the acknowledgment that when tyranny goes too far, people are endangered?

    Gotta have a fair, comprehensive discussion or commentary is void of effective substance.
    Last edited by Chester, 6th May 2020 at 16:33.
    All the above is all and only my opinion. It may contain some sharing of components of my current operating strategy and some foundational components of my current world view - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

    It's just a ride

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGD...vgBsCHmlC13jOg

    https://www.facebook.com/samhunter57

    http://merlynagain.blogspot.com/

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  13. #622
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    Quote Originally posted by Chester View Post
    But where is the acknowledgment that when tyranny goes too far, people are endangered?
    As has been abundantly obvious from various videos on the lockdown protests in the USA, the definition of tyranny varies wildly.

    The lockdowns are necessary, and it doesn't matter one iota whether or not you're going to have a next life if you die from Covid-19. The afterlife is still a (very poorly understood) mystery to everyone, and the separation of church and state in western countries excludes the afterlife as a legitimate compensation for having to die because certain people ─ let's just call them rednecks ─ refuse to assume their responsibility toward their fellow human beings.

    I support the right to own firearms, and even to bear them under certain circumstances. But if I were a US American, I'd be experiencing far more tyranny from the arrogant redneck gathering with their automatic weapons ─ in woodland camouflage, so as to make sure that they remain undetected in the middle of town ─ than from the government lockdown. Not that I would want to live in the USA ─ not for all the money in the world, thank you very much ─ but that's another matter, albeit somewhat related to the above.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Senior Member United States Chester's Avatar
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    My Opinion Only - The lock downs are not necessary at all whatsoever. Those who think they are have bought into a fiction presented by those who claim to be cutting edge virologists.

    Give this a listen then get back to me -

    https://www.thehighersidechats.com/d...irus-exosomes/

    On another note, the following is commentary stimulated by DTs post of the actions of a wacko blamed on the wrong cause -

    There are two greatly negative results from the application of a false choice, especially when they are presented as a zero-sum choice in an “either this or that” format. By doing this, the “doer” is setting up their target to be “blamable” to all the emotionally vulnerable and/or intellectually challenged.

    But there is something even more dangerous and nefarious that results from this tactic. And that is the establishment of a fraudulent context. When a false context is applied and bought into, all discussion becomes limited within the framework of that false paradigm.

    This is the essence of psychological warfare (which only effects those who are prone to psychological arguments).

    The most successful form of application of implantation of false context is when there are multiple levels of false context where one builds upon the other and the other and the other.
    All the above is all and only my opinion. It may contain some sharing of components of my current operating strategy and some foundational components of my current world view - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

    It's just a ride

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  17. #624
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    Quote Originally posted by Chester View Post
    My Opinion Only - The lock downs are not necessary at all whatsoever. Those who think they are have bought into a fiction presented by those who claim to be cutting edge virologists.
    Not at all. There are also those of us who've had a scientific education. And I've had several of them. I don't need any talking heads to either confirm or deny what I already know.

    Besides, your claim that the lockdowns aren't necessary is contradicted by the very fact that the USA has managed to become the epicenter of the pandemic, exactly because of the US government's poor judgment and its mismanagement of the situation.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    that's pretty much the point, Aragorn...time will make it obvious what is the correct thing to do...and then disbelievers will almost certainly have to default to a fallback fail safe. I'm thinking the preppers are still overprepared for this pandemic. "It was their plan all along". I don't know why people insist on fighting battles that have no resolution to be found from their perspective.

    I'm not trying to be mean, but reality is reality.
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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    A lady was just arrested in texas for defying a lockdown order...A hair salon. I'm not sure I agree this is correct. If the lady is courageous enough to do what she did...i think she should be allowed to do what she feels she needs to do. My money says she will be out and free within a couple of hours properly chastised and given a reason to second think. She should invite people to her home if she is that needful. I sure as hell would.

    I should have added if she is in the proper demographic.
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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    Quote Originally posted by Chester View Post
    Well, sometimes I don't know all the reasons in advance... but you have revealed a good one!

    [Here's a hint - "mandatory vaccines are coming to a 'theater' near you."]
    Well, here's my own opinion. It increasingly looks like the big differentiator between countries that have mass casualties from Covid-19 and those that are doing OK, is mandatory mass vaccination programmes. Except in the exact opposite way to what you are implying. It now seems that those populations that were rigorously vaccinated, especially with BCG in early childhood are doing much better than those that weren't. It has long been observed that BCG vaccinations lower overall childhood mortality, irrespective of the prevalence of Tubercolosis in the population. Instead of weakening the immune system like many claim, it seems to supercharge it for life and enable those that have gotten it early on to much more effectively fight off any pathogen, including Covid-19.

    https://www.newscientist.com/article...ll-production/

    https://semmelweis.hu/english/2020/0...inst-covid-19/

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  25. #628
    Senior Member United States Chester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Not at all. There are also those of us who've had a scientific education. And I've had several of them. I don't need any talking heads to either confirm or deny what I already know.

    Besides, your claim that the lockdowns aren't necessary is contradicted by the very fact that the USA has managed to become the epicenter of the pandemic, exactly because of the US government's poor judgment and its mismanagement of the situation.
    You believe in a false paradigm.... that lock downs make a difference. You also (likely) believe in traditional beliefs related to "viruses." Are you familiar with the latest scientific breakthroughs related to the understandings of exosomes and their role in relation to what you refer to as "a virus" and the resultant illness?

    The scientists that have earned my respect never stop learning, never think they know everything and never close their mind.

    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    Well, here's my own opinion. It increasingly looks like the big differentiator between countries that have mass casualties from Covid-19 and those that are doing OK, is mandatory mass vaccination programmes. Except in the exact opposite way to what you are implying. It now seems that those populations that were rigorously vaccinated, especially with BCG in early childhood are doing much better than those that weren't. It has long been observed that BCG vaccinations lower overall childhood mortality, irrespective of the prevalence of Tubercolosis in the population. Instead of weakening the immune system like many claim, it seems to supercharge it for life and enable those that have gotten it early on to much more effectively fight off any pathogen, including Covid-19.

    https://www.newscientist.com/article...ll-production/

    https://semmelweis.hu/english/2020/0...inst-covid-19/

    Mind Blown... ya'll enjoy yourselves.
    All the above is all and only my opinion. It may contain some sharing of components of my current operating strategy and some foundational components of my current world view - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

    It's just a ride

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    http://merlynagain.blogspot.com/

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    Quote Originally posted by Chester View Post
    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Quote Originally posted by Chester View Post
    My Opinion Only - The lock downs are not necessary at all whatsoever. Those who think they are have bought into a fiction presented by those who claim to be cutting edge virologists.
    Not at all. There are also those of us who've had a scientific education. And I've had several of them. I don't need any talking heads to either confirm or deny what I already know.

    Besides, your claim that the lockdowns aren't necessary is contradicted by the very fact that the USA has managed to become the epicenter of the pandemic, exactly because of the US government's poor judgment and its mismanagement of the situation.
    You believe in a false paradigm.... that lock downs make a difference.
    That is not a belief. It's science.

    Quote Originally posted by Chester View Post
    You also (likely) believe in traditional beliefs related to "viruses."
    Again, that's not a belief. It's science.

    Quote Originally posted by Chester View Post
    Are you familiar with the latest scientific breakthroughs related to the understandings of exosomes and their role in relation to what you refer to as "a virus" and the resultant illness?
    Yes.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    As I have said already, the credit due, such as it is, in terms of numbers of illness and death goes to the folks who have been self-quarantining and social distancing. And that, for the most part, has been voluntary. That is what has been flattening the curve.

    In this particular case we don't just quarantine those who are already ill because the virus infects and spreads well before symptoms show. That's its unique challenge.

    The governors have taken varied approaches, some better than others. Public health is a huge part of both their mandate and the federal mandate. Public health has always been a crucial factor in how this country is governed. Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That is not qualified to be at the expense of our fellow Americans.

    Tyranny is a very strong word to use in this context in terms of actions which have been taken in America.

    China was welding people into their apartments. That is without a doubt tyranny.

    I don't like the tyranny of people pointing their guns at fellow Americans and saying that their way is the right way. I don't like the tyranny of saying that it's OK to run people over with a car as happened to Heather Heyer. I don't like the tyranny of shooting people at a store because someone does not like the policy. A business has the right to implement policies which protect its interests as well as its customers.

    I really don't like the abuse of the word tyranny any more than I like the abuse of the word freedom.

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