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  1. #91
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    With regard to the usage of "moral based causes" where the argument 'for' is religious based... the problem is just as great because by justifying a cause based on what someone's religion is interpreted to espouse whereby then the conclusion is that the cause 'it must be made law' creates at least two significant problems (at least here in the US). And that is the intention to separate church and state with regards to laws and government. A person's reason for voting for someone or something can be anything, including a belief that something is a violation or an adherence to tenets of their religion. But to take a moral stand by using their religion as the basis for that moral stand avoids placing the focus on what may be the actual right or wrong of a matter. In addition, it may impose a moral on others that (and in some cases many might view as 'sadly') is better left up to individuals to decide (and where family members may be the best advisors be they available). For me, the abortion issue is the premier issue that emulates the above stated complications.

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  3. #92
    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Well Sammy,

    Really to equate 'identity politics' with victimhood is a bad start in differentiating left and right politics. I can state in a more articulate fashion my feelings about right and left after having been misunderstood almost universally.

    My sense of left and right are not based in political wants and don't wants. It is a matter of values, primarily the value placed on human beings. One could argue that the political fight about abortion would be an example of how the right cherishes life but it is a misunderstanding of their own motivations. It isn't about life, it is about a true fear of God and his hell and damnation for the countenance of what they have misunderstood to be biblical proscriptions. There is no spiritual connection from what the bible proscribes and how it is applied to 'others'...it is solely about the individual and God and what the bible demands. It is a serious disconnect emanating from the conceptual application of 'me' 'them' 'us'. There is no basis in compassion. In a word...my sense of left and right and the right's vision of left and right are worlds apart.

    That's important to establish to lay the groundwork for communication on the same channel.
    "We are one thought away from changing the world!"

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    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    Here are some things communists do:

    Investigate political opposition.

    Lock up political opposition.

    Equate loyalty to party with patriotism.

    Desire a one-party system.

    Move money up to the upper echelons.



    All these things are happening here, being done by the party which has been in power. (the party which had all three branches until Nov.)

    And yet neither Donald Trump nor the Republican Party are communists. If anything, Donald Trump is a fascist — corporatism isn't a communist trait, it is a fascist trait, and nepotism is also not possible in a (real) communist regime.

    What you ascribe to the communists aren't communist traits in and of themselves, but traits of people in positions of absolute power. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    Well Sammy,

    Really to equate 'identity politics' with victimhood is a bad start in differentiating left and right politics. I can state in a more articulate fashion my feelings about right and left after having been misunderstood almost universally.

    My sense of left and right are not based in political wants and don't wants. It is a matter of values, primarily the value placed on human beings. One could argue that the political fight about abortion would be an example of how the right cherishes life but it is a misunderstanding of their own motivations. It isn't about life, it is about a true fear of God and his hell and damnation for the countenance of what they have misunderstood to be biblical proscriptions. There is no spiritual connection from what the bible proscribes and how it is applied to 'others'...it is solely about the individual and God and what the bible demands. It is a serious disconnect emanating from the conceptual application of 'me' 'them' 'us'. There is no basis in compassion. In a word...my sense of left and right and the right's vision of left and right are worlds apart.

    That's important to establish to lay the groundwork for communication on the same channel.
    There was no attempt to differentiate the two Left and Right. There was only what I found to be sad examples as to how one or the other attempts to gain political advantage. Neither my example for the left or my example for the right said anything good about the specific tactics if the reader read the two fairly. Neither example was at all complementary of its corresponding placement on the political spectrum.

    Regarding the usage of 'identity politics' and 'victimhood,' I did not equate the two. I stated the two were used as ways to stir up support from the more vulnerable. I will add that the reason I mentioned them both is because they are often used together but I did not state, suggest or imply they are the same.



    There's more we can discuss but its important if we do, we at least understand each other first (which appears to be what you suggest as well, NAP). So, for the sake of understanding, as far as the terms left and right go, when I use those terms in a discussion of a political nature the definition I am thinking of for each of those terms is quite like the definition found in the establishment's e-cyclopedia, Wikipedia.

    Left

    Right

    Note that I also use the terms liberal and conservative.

    I also use the terms democrat and republican and I might add libertarian into that group.

    I state this only because I may make posts that use these terms and just like you seemed to semi-suggest, we do need to understand what each other means by the words we use.

    All these terms have different meanings which in part, depend on the context within which they are used. An example of that is in the usage of the terms left and right when used within the context of an economic system. I believed I made it clear that my usage of the terms left and right in some of the previous posts I made was within a political context.

    So let me throw this one out. If you could speak with the folks who know me, you would be told that I appear to be quite compassionate about the plights of others. But what you would also be told is that I am a firm believer in the import of exercise of one's own individual personal responsibility with a fair consideration as to one's abilities to exercise such. I am also compassionate about the import of gaining and maintaining personal dignity. I am also all for assisting other up to the point it becomes clear I am not assisting but enabling another in avoiding fulfilling personal responsibilities it is clear one is capable of fulfilling. In fact, there is no more a difficult form of love to show another than when one says, "no, no more... you have been given chance after chance and you only have only abused those chances, its time you figure out how to do that on your own." I know this form of love very well as a.) it was applied to me and b.) I have had to apply it to my sons and some loved ones.

    Many make the mistake that those who share the sort of views I just expressed are right wing or conservative or religiously inclined. I am not religious. My world view is based on monistic idealism. I am a caring, compassionate person who has come to express my compassion for others within the guidelines I stated above. None of that makes me anything politically. If I were asked if my values leaned more to conservative than liberal, I would say conservative. Yet I have taken the Political Spectrum twice over the last seven years (3 years apart) and I came in at almost the same exact position twice as depicted in the results below -

    Name:  Political Compass score.gif
Views: 57
Size:  102.3 KB

    All the above has been shared in hopes that my transparancy and honesty can be helpful if any of us engage in further discussion of a social, economic or political nature.
    Last edited by Sammy, 2nd June 2019 at 01:14.

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    Just in case there's interest, I recommend folks consider spending the time to see where they may actually fall on the political compass -

    Take the Test

    About the Political Compass

    This is a reasonably comprehensive test and will take some time to complete. As I stated above, I took it twice. The first time I took it was a few years prior to the one I took which I posted above (which actually was taken on November 19, 2016). I am certain I saved the results but have yet to find them. But why I am bringing this up is because the results the first time were almost identical to the results of the second time. Each time I was surprised as I would have bet a bundle I would have landed further to the right. Anyways... If we all took the test (and answered as honest as we can), I think that would be a great way for us to not only know ourselves, but share about ourselves so that others can know where each of us are coming from.

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    yeah, I actually did gather that...Sammy. The thing is that what one perceives as a description of left and right even only as symbolism carries connotations that cannot be escaped by the receiver of such info...namely me.

    In my opinion only, it really isn't possible to consciously abandon things that are deeply embedded in our psyches. We have to confront them and integrate them into our reality. In a way acknowledging that the divisions do exist if only in the minds of those we encounter daily. To do otherwise is just denying truth or worse yet indulging in escapism.

    But I do respect the attempt to do so.
    "We are one thought away from changing the world!"

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    So here's the Big Question Sammy,

    When dealing with the above situations you cited when you hit the wall, Do you lead with compassion or the 'final' principle, "You've had your chances!". What does your instinct tell you? I know that the notion of unconditional love is generally limited to those close to us...but is that where it should stop and no longer apply?

    Let us call this an exercise in looking deeper into ourselves.
    "We are one thought away from changing the world!"

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    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    I was a little farther left than you Sammy, but just as libertarian. I don't agree with the definitions though. I think this was formulated by a rightist.

    I'm not libertarian...libertarians are authoritarians wrapped in a facade of freedom. Translated that means freedom for me and the hell with the rest of you. I see where people are gaining their 'new' perspective. This is another form of social manipulation and a dangerous one because it seems highly legitimate.
    Last edited by NotAPretender, 2nd June 2019 at 17:18.
    "We are one thought away from changing the world!"

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    Senior Member Kitsune's Avatar
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    I was labeled a left authoritarian. I just laughed! Nothing could be further from the truth.
    Oh, I may be on the side of the angels. But don't think for one second that I am one of them.

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    You know, it's sometimes funny to think about the American politics. As an european/scandinavian who leans more towards the left & liberalism I would be far more on the left than the current US democrats would ever be. Here we actually have a socialist system which is somewhat working, for the benefit of all. For us here the us democratic party wouldn't be a leftist party at all, it's more like centrist leaning on the right with business interests. Republicans are just plain conservatives with more of that greed and no I'm not saying that people who vote for that party necessarily are like that...

    Then again, I don't like to identify myself with some party. I'm just a human being with compassion and humanity. Sure I ain't a rich business owner either, I have had plenty of firsthand knowledge what poverty is and what it means to have very little and still try to keep on going. Most of Earth's population knows how it feels to be poory and hungry, the difference is that in first world countries things are still somewhat okay even for the poor, in thirld world countries it's just horrible. I don't think US treats it's people on the downside of life properly at all. Disgrace is a word that comes to my mind when I think about it.

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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    So here's the Big Question Sammy,

    When dealing with the above situations you cited when you hit the wall, Do you lead with compassion or the 'final' principle, "You've had your chances!". What does your instinct tell you? I know that the notion of unconditional love is generally limited to those close to us...but is that where it should stop and no longer apply?

    Let us call this an exercise in looking deeper into ourselves.
    I have a "self rule" which is as follows. Help, help and help again... all the way up to the point I recognize that I am actually not helping but enabling. Then, draw the line and see how the individual responds. If they wake up and get a clue and start taking action which begins to demonstrate they not only "see the light" with regards to personal responsibility, but begin to act in ways that are evidentiary in showing they really "get it," then, after I see it has sunk in and their new behavior is consistent, I become open again to providing measured help.

    The reason I do it this way is simple. I would not wish to live with myself if I didn't feel I had done all I could and thus I always experience crossing that line first, before I put on the brakes. In addition, I never put on the brakes where the braking action is with the intention of being permanent... but I am definitely more cautious once that line has been crossed.

    A great example is one of my sons. He is a truly golden-hearted young man but sadly, had developed a serious drinking problem (which is now full-blown, but "functioning" alcoholism... which also runs in the family on both sides of hs parents) and he is only 23 years old. Three years ago (just after he moved in with me after leaving the home of his mother, my ex-wife), I assisted him when a car he owned needed significant repairs. Soon after he got on the road again, I received a call from him at 1:00ish in the morning where he was clearly incoherent and jabbering about some auto "incident" then hung up. I tried to reach him back and he wouldn't answer. Of course I was worried the rest of the night and didn't sleep. Sometime before noon he shows up (without his car) and tells me a story where he had been drinking, driving in a foolish way and slammed against a curve disabling the car.

    Even prior to assisting him with the repairs, I was aware of another car he wrecked just a year before (totaled in fact) but was never told much details as he was living with his mother still and clearly wanted to avoid the subject. Knowing he was already a partier (I thought it was mostly marijuana), I suspected substances were involved but never pressed him. (He has since confirmed they were).

    After having (another) serious talk with him not just about his drinking (as I had now seen it up close and personal as he was living in my home), but his drinking and driving, I told him that it would be very hard for me to (again) fix that car knowing that he puts the lives of others at risk not to mention his own and that if he is going to be driving, he needs to show some personal responsibility in not driving while drinking. So over the course of the next six months he didn't have a car, he had to get to work other ways and he couldn't go out to see friends so easily as Dallas is not all that easy to get around without a car.

    He eventually found a way to trade the car for an old truck but just after he got the truck, the truck had mechanical problems and wouldn't drive. So once again, I came with an idea to help him, a practical idea where he would have affordable and reliable transportation by purchasing a used car through a friend of mine who is a used car provider along with financing which my son needed as he had no credit and I co-signed. I also lent him the down payment and once again, he was in charge of a reliable ride. But before I did this for him, we had a long, serious talk about drinking and driving. He promised he would never drink and drive.

    And once again, less than 6 months later, he's a no show one night where the next day he came to me and told me he had totaled the car. He admitted he had been drinking when it happened though he swore he was sober enough to drive. He also had his brother and his best friend in the car. Both his brother and best friend ended up having to seek medical help though there was no long term issues related to the accident. The incident involved losing control in a curve and knocking down a street light in the process. He and my other son and his friend all "ran off." A week later, I get the call from the police as I was the primary owner of the car. Fortunately my son chose to contact the detective and tell him it was his fault and agreed to pay for the light pole (which I had to lend the money for as well). But this time I drew the line and no longer am I willing to assist him in getting a car, not just because he may hurt himself in the vehicle, but more because of what he might do to another considering he has yet to deal with his drinking problem where he then loses all ability to exercise good judgment and not drive when he's been drinking.

    The point of the long story is to share all the details as an example. The point is to point out that my self rule is not black or white. The point in sharing all the details is that each situation is unique and complicated. And the point is that though it would have been easier to again assist my son, I felt that protecting others was more important. But in addition to that, even though after I helped my son the first time and felt that I had gone pretty far... I did not feel certain to my own satisfaction that I had gone far enough. So taht's why I was open to helping him again, even though I was pretty concerned something like this may happen again.

    Yet in honesty and looking back, my son driving head on into a light pole at somewhere near 50 miles an hours could have injured the others as well as himself or worse. But because I still wasn't sure yet, I helped. This is an example of help, help, help and... help again until I am certain I am not really helping but enabling. And so since that time (about 2 years now) I have not assisted this son in obtaining a car. In addition, I have experienced his drinking worsening to where he essentially gets up, goes to work, gets off work and drinks until he passes out and does this same routine every day with a rare break where once a week he may take the day off from drinking. I also should add that he smokes weed every day and usually kicks the day off with a bowl in the morning.

    And one other factor I wish to share, when I immigrated my wife and step-daughter to the US in January of 2017, I had made sure all three of my sons knew that they would need to get a place of their own. The son I wrote about above was 21 at that time and this was about 6 months after this latest car incident. His older brothers were 23 and 25. All three had jobs and all three were prepared to get out on their own (again). Thus I was pretty certain that unless my youngest son cleaned up, he wouldn't be able to have the discipline to save up for a car on top of his food, rent, utilities and whatever else he wanted to spend his money on. My bet so far proves right. He still has not obtained a car and his drinking is pretty much full blown alcoholism.

    If he ever truly cleans up and shows he's serious about sobriety, I would always remain open minded about helping him again in some practical way with regards to a car.

    I hope it is appreciated the time I put into sharing all this. I hope it is understood that I love my son and why I said above, sometimes saying "no," is the hardest but most important way to show love.

    I apply this rule to all that enter the sphere of my own life. The rule is not selectively applied to my family... I just felt the example I shared was a very good one.
    Last edited by Sammy, 2nd June 2019 at 21:06.

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    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    You know, it's sometimes funny to think about the American politics. As an european/scandinavian who leans more towards the left & liberalism I would be far more on the left than the current US democrats would ever be. Here we actually have a socialist system which is somewhat working, for the benefit of all. For us here the us democratic party wouldn't be a leftist party at all, it's more like centrist leaning on the right with business interests. Republicans are just plain conservatives with more of that greed and no I'm not saying that people who vote for that party necessarily are like that...

    Then again, I don't like to identify myself with some party. I'm just a human being with compassion and humanity. Sure I ain't a rich business owner either, I have had plenty of firsthand knowledge what poverty is and what it means to have very little and still try to keep on going. Most of Earth's population knows how it feels to be poory and hungry, the difference is that in first world countries things are still somewhat okay even for the poor, in thirld world countries it's just horrible. I don't think US treats it's people on the downside of life properly at all. Disgrace is a word that comes to my mind when I think about it.
    Hi Wind... I have several friends over in Scandinavia. Most are from Norway. Can you share which scandinavian country you are from?

    Quote Originally posted by Kitsune View Post
    I was labeled a left authoritarian. I just laughed! Nothing could be further from the truth.
    You mean from the test?

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    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Hey Sammy, I want to do justice to your post above...mentions your son, so I will respond later. It is 'interesting' that in reading your description of the car incident that it immediately recalled in my mind a dream I've had a couple of times in the last year...The dream is pretty freaky and what I (in the dream) take away from it was that I was not in my right mind when I did those things and it was very scary to me to see it in retrospect. Financial disaster, near physical disaster and much guilt. The outcome of the dream is a 'pass' on the financial part but I was sentenced to spend 6 months in jail, if and when I chose to show up because it was kind of like 'after the statute of limitations' and the authorities knew it. So, it was a matter of 'responsibility' and whether or not I chose to accept it.

    Very weird dream...
    "We are one thought away from changing the world!"

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    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Sammy View Post
    I have a "self rule" which is as follows. Help, help and help again... all the way up to the point I recognize that I am actually not helping but enabling. Then, draw the line and see how the individual responds. If they wake up and get a clue and start taking action which begins to demonstrate they not only "see the light" with regards to personal responsibility, but begin to act in ways that are evidentiary in showing they really "get it," then, after I see it has sunk in and their new behavior is consistent, I become open again to providing measured help. [...]
    That pretty much describes myself as well.





    Quote Originally posted by Sammy View Post
    Hi Wind... I have several friends over in Scandinavia. Most are from Norway. Can you share which scandinavian country you are from?
    Given that our brother Wind hasn't had a chance to reply yet, I am taking the liberty of doing it in his stead. He resides in Finland, home to the exquisitely handbuilt Ruokangas guitars, and the birthplace of Linux.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Senior Member Kitsune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Sammy View Post
    You mean from the test?
    Yes sir
    Oh, I may be on the side of the angels. But don't think for one second that I am one of them.

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