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Thread: ETs and Abduction Phenomena: A Debate

  1. #1
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    ETs and Abduction Phenomena: A Debate

    Hello, everyone. I hope you're all doing well in your little respective corners of the woods.

    I don't post here nearly as often as I should, but I was browsing, and it seems that this forum is missing a thread dedicated exclusively to the nature of the ET/abduction phenomena, its implications, and whether or not the whole thing is good, bad, or somewhere in between. While I am by no means anything remotely near the orbit of an expert on the matter, ETs/Ufology/Abductions are definitely a major interest of mine, and like anyone, I've come out with more questions now than when I first started learning about this fascinating subject.

    In any case, it seems most people fall into one of three camps: those that believe the abduction phenomena and ET presence to be insidious and definitively a bad thing (researchers such as David Jacobs are a good example), those that believe that the ETs come in peace, and are our space family here to teach us love and compassion or something like that (Dr. Greer, most 'contactees'). Finally, there's the third group, and one that I'm almost always in for just about any topic: those that are still on the fence, and don't have a firm stance either way.

    So, I figured I'd make this thread, as a sort of ongoing debate/research thing.

    I ask that those that choose to post here, make their first post an introductory one. Nothing rigid, just the basics: who you are (have you had first-hand experiences? Are you a researcher? Anything relevant), and a statement of your current stance (make sure to explain why you think so).

    I'll start this thread by doing just that in the following post, to sort of kick things off. Ideally, this thread will evolve over time, and act as a repository of information, where people can find first hand accounts, videos, book references, etc., and ultimately formulate their own opinion.

    Let's just make sure that we don't debate the early-stage stuff, such as "Are UFOs real?" or "Did Roswell really happen?". I feel like we should collectively all have graduated out of this a long time ago. So in this thread, we are going to have only two things be definitive:


    - ETs and UFOs are very real, and have been visiting Earth since at least the early 1940s, and very possibly far longer
    - The world government is aware of their presence
    - The ETs are abducting humans for unknown reasons, by the thousands at least, maybe even the millions

    The rest, well, that will be up for debate

    Now, we begin.

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    Alright, here goes. First post.


    My name is Tamara. I am 23 years old (you guys don't have to post personal information, I just couldn't think of what else to open with).

    I have had lifelong interest in the paranormal, and never found it difficult to believe what most other never even began to consider, as it was too outlandish. I consider myself a non-materialist, open-minded skeptic: I value evidence, the scientific method, and unbiased research. I refuse to fall into the trap of complacency, belief, or anything remotely close to 'woo'. I'm not fanciful or prone to believing things because they're comforting or convenient. I am not religious in any way shape or form, nor will I ever be. I state all of this so that readers may have a better understanding of the frame of reference that dominates how I operate and what I believe.

    Regarding the ET/ED phenomena, I am very much neutral. There are aspects of the subject that concern me greatly, and seem to be red flags: the hybrid program and forced reproduction of abductees, the Stockholm syndrome like devotion to ETs that a lot of abductees have, and the cryptic, vague refusal on the ETs part to clearly state their intentions (among others). Regardless, I do not want to be so arrogant or foolish as to assume that I know and understand the phenomenon well, and therefore know what the ETs want with us. We are a young and foolish species, spiritually blind, so I'm sure it would be very easy for anyone more advanced than us to manipulate and deceive us, the same way it would be easy for an adult to manipulate and deceive a young child. However, we humans are also a stubborn, violent, cruel, and stupid lot, so it's entirely possible there are species out there that are truly more benevolent as a whole. Perhaps a species needs to reach a certain level of unity and progressiveness to survive long enough to travel through the spacetime continuum that is the known universe. With that said, I'm also not particularly optimistic, so for pragmatism and prudence's sake, I am of the opinion that as above, so below. Just like humans, there are probably ETs that are evil little scumbags, and there are probably some that are compassionate, serene souls, and those that are any shade of gray in between.

    Why I believe this, I can't say exactly: it just seems like common sense to me, really.

    Basically, I certainly don't trust the ETs (I also don't trust humans, so it's not a racist thing), but I'm also not convinced that they're here to destroy or invade us or anything like that.

    While I have not directly experienced anything that I am aware of (though I have a sneaking, tiny suspicion I may have been abducted at one point, and that my father is a MILAB or something along those lines), I've had two possible UFO sightings; one I believe to have been a military craft, the other, something I captured a photo of and made a thread of (search my post history if you're interested). I will be stating all of my experiences and suspicions regarding the potential of being an abductee in a totally separate thread sometime in the future. When that happens, I'll edit this post and add links to it.

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    Hey Tamara,

    Thanks for starting this thread, it is a great idea.

    I think most people here know me quite well, including from my brief stint over at PA.

    Personally, I am not at all convinced that physical extraterrestrials are visiting or have visited us in the past. It may be a mistake to think of otherworldly beings in our human, physical terms. For one, the physics would suggest that dense, physical bodies, such as ours, can’t easily traverse interstellar distances. I suspect, that interstellar travel, by its very nature, would have to be interdimensional as well and only beings that can operate interdimensionally, whether through technology, or more likely through natural psychic abilities can become an interstellar species.

    There are many conclusions you can draw from that presumption, but I will leave it to each person to think about it in detail. I will instead concentrate on reporting my own interactions and communications with otherworldly beings. It is a matter of perspective whether you consider them Extraterrestrials, Interdimensionals, Gods, Angels, Fairies or for that matter, Demons. There are all sorts out there and it is not at all clear what differentiates them. From my perspective, the classical grey ETs fall very clearly into the malevolent, interdimensional and demonic category.
    I consider the Anunnaki (also known as the Elohim or Devas) to be positive and benevolent beings, but most others put them into the malevolent category and imagine them eating little children for breakfast. Both David Icke and Corey Goode seems to suggest that very strongly, but frankly, how would they know as neither have actually met one in real life? We know that Corey Goode is a fraud or a fantasist or both and David Icke isn’t exactly the intellectual powerhouse he thinks he is. Some of his conclusions are incredibly simplistic. It is very clear, if you do any amount of research that the Anunnaki (or Anu) have nothing to do with reptilians.

    The Anunnaki are well aware of their nasty reputation these days, so they prefer to go by the moniker Elohim, which hasn’t been so tainted with vicious rumours.
    Personally, I have shifted my attention to Devas, the various deities of Hinduism and Buddhism. They are the same thing, but less controversial. I’ve had visitations (or rather I’ve visited them, in their realm), from Tara, Kwan Yin and Shiva. I realise non-religious people will balk at this, but they’re as much higher-dimensional and Extraterrestrial beings as they are religious figures. Again, it is all a matter of perspective. The form of Tara I saw was green-skinned and four-armed, so clearly, not human. And, I saw her very clearly, I even touched her, after asking for permission of course, and it was a very real touch. She also touched me in return and again, it felt completely like a real touch, even more so in fact, because of the much more intense energetic component. If you’re interested in what she looks like, there are some decent images online that are somewhat accurate, the only major difference being that I saw her with four arms and her skin was more olive-coloured than green per se.

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gr...w=1440&bih=789

    She also visited someone else I know at my prompting both as Tara and as Kwan Yin.

    I have also been developing a relationship with Shiva, who is very hard to reach and incredibly powerful. He is the highest deity I have managed to reach so far, I believe there is no one beyond him, only the absolute, Brahman. He has helped me in providing protection to people who are beset by benevolent entities or black magic (I know, I know, but please keep an open mind, these are real people and they really are suffering very badly. If I can help them through the power of Lord Shiva, I will do so.)
    Blessings to all,

    Chris

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    Benevolent or malevolent Chris?

    L.A. Marzulli is another that falls in the category of E.T.s as Demonic.

    Indigris: I don't trust them either...which is why I prefer to stay away from them and perhaps that is why I haven't ever had a hard contact. But, I have experienced night turning into day by flashes of a very bright light (incidentally, in an area that has had a documented UFO sighting during the same time frame). I was in Phoenix during the 'Lights' sighting. I was in a rented car traveling into the surrounding hills just taking a drive while preparing for an interview the next day. I started up into the area and for some reason 'chickened out' and turned around and went back to my hotel room. I have been surrounded by'weird' events, such as lights flashing on and off when I'm near them. I know that can happen by coincidence but I've ridden my bicyle early in the morning and as I pass street lights the damn things flash off and then on when I pass. My daughter once teased me about causing lights to do that because she noticed it herself. I asked her if when she was with her mother if the same thing happened and she said decidedly not...so I don't know.

    I've awakened in my front yard in my underwear...(that was a weird one . I was dreaming about a plane flight, which, of course, I had never experienced. I had an encounter with a girl friend and she appeared 'Alien' for a short while...that was strange but I did really care about her...

    I was driving to Roswell and spotted a UFO, a very obvious one...when I asked people at a meeting there if they were aware of the goings on and they looked at me as if I was insane...and on and on...

    Bottom line...No, I don't trust them at all.

    Last edited by NotAPretender, 28th February 2019 at 11:18.
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    Quote Originally posted by Indigris View Post
    [...]

    I ask that those that choose to post here, make their first post an introductory one. Nothing rigid, just the basics: who you are (have you had first-hand experiences? Are you a researcher? Anything relevant), and a statement of your current stance (make sure to explain why you think so).
    Um, I am Aragorn, I live in the Flanders ─ i.e. the northern and Dutch-speaking region of Belgium ─ and unless something freaky happens within the next five weeks, I'm about to turn 56.

    In all of my life, I have never once seen a genuine UFO, although I did see a few weird things of which I thought at the time that they might have been UFOs, but that later on turned out to have been something else. I am however convinced that we are being visited by extraterrestrial and/or interdimensional beings on a regular basis, because there is ample evidence to support that this has been going on since before mankind attained the capability of sustained flight, and certain enigmatic artworks dating back to the middle ages and earlier also appear to be depicting what could be considered ships in the sky. For that matter, the Mahabharata also references flying craft, and possibly nuclear weapons.

    While I have not seen any UFOs with my own eyes, there was a UFO flap over Belgium in the late 1980s and early 1990s, and I was at my parents' house one evening in 1989 when one of the most significant UFO sighthings occurred here, prompting the Belgian Air Force to send up two F-16 jets to intercept a huge black and triangular craft ─ there were actually two such craft, but only one of them was pursued by the jet fighters.

    The craft was witnessed by over 30'000 people, among whom ─ and this is important ─ over 1'000 gendarmes. Belgium no longer has any gendarmes, but to briefly describe them, they were a police force that was separate and distinct from the civilian police corps and that fell directly under the command of the Ministry of Defense. At one point, the gendarme at the dispatch station witnessed the craft himself as it was approaching the city, and he described how a red-glowing disk descended from the bottom of the craft down to street level, toured around a few buildings and then went back up into the main craft again. A few other gendarmes also reported seeing the second craft hovering over a field and communicating with the first craft by way of light beams that changed color.

    The craft that was pursued by the F-16s conducted a series of very erratic maneuvers, including right-angle turns and a sudden acceleration from approximately 160 km/h to over 1'600 km/h in just over a second, thereby also rapidly descending from fairly high altitude to very low altitude, and all without making a single sound. Had that craft been moving relativistically, then its occupants would have been killed on the spot by the G-forces. The jets were able to lock their weapons radar on the craft nine times, but each time the craft broke away from the lock again by conducting these erratic maneuvers.

    The Air Force was very open about it all, and the combat radar footage from the jet fighters was shown on the evening news by then-Colonel Wilfied De Brouwer of the Belgian Air Force. De Brouwer has in the meantime joined Steven Greer's Disclosure Project. I have also addressed this issue on this thread here, which contains an interview we did with British UFO researcher Gary Heseltine.

    Beyond the above, I have two fairly close friends who've had abduction/contact experiences. One of them is a member here ─ although I've known her from long before she joined up here ─ and she has recently discovered, through a regression hypnosis conducted by a qualified QHHT therapist, that not only has she been "visited", but she had been a human/ET hybrid in her previous life, and that this is why they've come to check up on her again in this life. She described the beings as human-looking but with yellow eyes, and although they were friendly to her, they did show her things that horrified her ─ people locked up in cages and used only for experimentation.

    The other friend has herself not been contacted or abducted (that she knows of), but her younger sister was a repeated contactee during her childhood. This was in South Africa, and the beings the younger sister described ─ my friend herself was paralyzed by fear and was hiding under the covers of her bed, afraid to look ─ were diminutive, with large eyes. There was mention of some kind of teleportation technology through which the beings manifested in the girls' room.

    Quote Originally posted by Indigris View Post
    [...]

    Let's just make sure that we don't debate the early-stage stuff, such as "Are UFOs real?" or "Did Roswell really happen?". I feel like we should collectively all have graduated out of this a long time ago. So in this thread, we are going to have only two things be definitive:


    - ETs and UFOs are very real, and have been visiting Earth since at least the early 1940s, and very possibly far longer
    I would say "far longer", although there is some evidence that supports an increase in visitations and abductions since the late 1940s.

    Quote Originally posted by Indigris View Post
    - The world government is aware of their presence
    Absolutely. There is ample footage from military jets and radar installations to corroborate that we are being visited. It just so happens to be that our western society is still in a state of denial about it. It appears to be an almost cultural obligation to ridicule anyone who talks about UFOs.

    Quote Originally posted by Indigris View Post
    - The ETs are abducting humans for unknown reasons, by the thousands at least, maybe even the millions

    [...]
    Well, there are approximately three million people in the USA alone who claim to have been abducted by ETs. And even if we subtract a very royal number from those reports based upon possible accounts of hallucinations or hoaxes, then it's still going to be thousands of people. And that's in the USA only. Abductions and contact experiences have been occurring all over the planet for decades already, and maybe even going back as far as the Biblical times.





    Quote Originally posted by Indigris View Post
    [...]

    I have had lifelong interest in the paranormal, and never found it difficult to believe what most other never even began to consider, as it was too outlandish. I consider myself a non-materialist, open-minded skeptic: I value evidence, the scientific method, and unbiased research. I refuse to fall into the trap of complacency, belief, or anything remotely close to 'woo'. I'm not fanciful or prone to believing things because they're comforting or convenient. I am not religious in any way shape or form, nor will I ever be. I state all of this so that readers may have a better understanding of the frame of reference that dominates how I operate and what I believe.
    That pretty much describes my own vantage as well.

    Quote Originally posted by Indigris View Post
    Regarding the ET/ED phenomena, I am very much neutral. There are aspects of the subject that concern me greatly, and seem to be red flags: the hybrid program and forced reproduction of abductees, the Stockholm syndrome like devotion to ETs that a lot of abductees have, and the cryptic, vague refusal on the ETs part to clearly state their intentions (among others). Regardless, I do not want to be so arrogant or foolish as to assume that I know and understand the phenomenon well, and therefore know what the ETs want with us. We are a young and foolish species, spiritually blind, so I'm sure it would be very easy for anyone more advanced than us to manipulate and deceive us, the same way it would be easy for an adult to manipulate and deceive a young child. However, we humans are also a stubborn, violent, cruel, and stupid lot, so it's entirely possible there are species out there that are truly more benevolent as a whole. Perhaps a species needs to reach a certain level of unity and progressiveness to survive long enough to travel through the spacetime continuum that is the known universe. With that said, I'm also not particularly optimistic, so for pragmatism and prudence's sake, I am of the opinion that as above, so below. Just like humans, there are probably ETs that are evil little scumbags, and there are probably some that are compassionate, serene souls, and those that are any shade of gray in between.

    Why I believe this, I can't say exactly: it just seems like common sense to me, really.
    I agree, and indeed, it is common sense.

    Quote Originally posted by Indigris View Post
    Basically, I certainly don't trust the ETs (I also don't trust humans, so it's not a racist thing), but I'm also not convinced that they're here to destroy or invade us or anything like that. [...]
    I think that if they had wanted to invade or destroy us, then they would have done so a long time ago already. While our defensive capabilities are still peanuts compared to the advanced technology these beings possess, it would have strategically made much more sense to destroy us or invade us before we could develop our weapons to the stage where they are now.

    In addition to that, what point would there be in destroying us? Unless perhaps one considers humanity a threat to the rest of the universe ─ and at our current evolutionary level, I will concur that we would indeed be a threat. Humanity is way too corrupt, and at every level of the power structures here on Earth, you will find psychopaths galore.

    Like you, I think there are essentially three kinds of visitations: those who mean well and who have come out of a concern for our future and our wellbeing, those who are here for nefarious purposes such as genetic experimentation, and then finally, those who are indifferent but who are occasionally dropping by out of curiosity.

    As above, so below, and vice versa.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Hey i had an experience in 2014, i was taken from my bed at 2.37 am. It was an overall positive experience even though i can only really remember being taken amd left back. They where extremely gentle with me and for days after i was feeling really good about myself and just had a knowing in the back of my head that everything was going to be ok. I have also seen ufo's on a number of occasions. The first was a perfect round sphere that shot straight up from a storm cloud and the most recent was just before christmas, spinning disk with multi coloured lights.
    As for their intentions, not sure, i have a theory that they are collecting dna just in case we wreck this planet, so they can 're seed' when the time is right again.
    Sorry if my grammar is bad, typing on my phone and the letters are really close together lol.

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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post


    I think that if they had wanted to invade or destroy us, then they would have done so a long time ago already. While our defensive capabilities are still peanuts compared to the advanced technology these beings possess, it would have strategically made much more sense to destroy us or invade us before we could develop our weapons to the stage where they are now.

    In addition to that, what point would there be in destroying us? Unless perhaps one considers humanity a threat to the rest of the universe ─ and at our current evolutionary level, I will concur that we would indeed be a threat. Humanity is way too corrupt, and at every level of the power structures here on Earth, you will find psychopaths galore.

    Like you, I think there are essentially three kinds of visitations: those who mean well and who have come out of a concern for our future and our wellbeing, those who are here for nefarious purposes such as genetic experimentation, and then finally, those who are indifferent but who are occasionally dropping by out of curiosity.

    As above, so below, and vice versa.

    I agree 100% with your statements, Aragorn. In my opinion, there are millions being taken globally, and that at least some of them have been with us for eons. I'm also of the opinion that this civilization isn't the first one to reach this level (or higher) of technological advancement. If we were to have a global nuclear war tomorrow, and annihilate ourselves, 10,000 years down the road, whatever sentient species pops up would find only traces of what we were, if any. How advanced and pervasive the last civilization(s) before us were, I cannot say, but there was clearly something, and it was far more advanced than conventional history would have us believe.

    I did not, however, mention any of this in my first post, just to keep things as neutral as possible.

    That being said, I'm going to play Devil's advocate here: just because they haven't all-out invaded or attacked us yet, does not mean that they don't intend to, or won't. Now, to be clear, I am not saying that the ETs are here to eradicate us all, and are evil or whatever (to me, the concept of pure evil is a bit too simplistic). I'm simply saying that thinking they won't attack or invade because they haven't yet is a bit fallacious. Here's just a few reasons why, based off some quick brainstorming:

    - They're waiting for the right time. They had to give us a chance to evolve on our own, to see how we turned out, what we made of ourselves. After all, we could have gone so many different ways. We could have been potential allies, or enemies, or a threat (supposedly nuclear bombs impact more than just this dimension). But maybe, once we reach a certain level of potential, we'll have to be eradicated, like an invasive species (which we kind of are, if we're being honest with ourselves)

    - For whatever reasons, they cannot or will not attack a less-evolved species directly or through violent means, at least not without cause (could be some kind of galactic law, as one example). Kind of like how, even though the USA could nuke the hell out of North Korea or forcibly liberate its people, it wouldn't dare because of the global ramifications. Maybe that violates the alleged Prime Directive-esque law that ETs are said to abide by. Covert invasion (through, say, the hybrid program) could be some kind of loophole, for all we know.

    - And of course, it's entirely possible that there are no ETs, and the whole phenomenon is an artificially induced illusion created by humans for who-knows-what purposes. In which case, the invasion would either a) not be possible or b) a false flag coming at a later date

    Anyway, this is all 100% speculation, of course.

    Personally, the final line of your post reflects my current opinion on the whole thing: there's likely different types of beings each with their own range of agendas regarding us. And some, I'm sure, have 0 interest in us and could very well be researching something entirely separate, like our biodiversity or oceans or climate.

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    Jacques Vallee wrote several books where he explored the possibility of 'for who-knows-what purposes'. It was a radical departure from his earlier nuts-and-bolts perspective. He conjectured and this is pretty much a part of the common parlance at this point, that a covert human organization could use this approach to take over the world. He also considered the 'demonic' and/or just spiritual or even interdimensional aspect.
    "We are one thought away from changing the world!"

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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    I suspect, that interstellar travel, by its very nature, would have to be interdimensional as well and only beings that can operate interdimensionally, whether through technology, or more likely through natural psychic abilities can become an interstellar species.
    I agree completely. To me, ETs have GOT to be EDs, at least in part, because traversing the known universe in any kind of linear fashion would be way too inefficient, even if you were going FTL.

    But calling them ETs is simply a way to have everyone recognize what it is we're talking about.

    To me, evidence indicates that a lot of the paranormal/supernatural phenomena could all be different manifestations of the same thing; that fae, demons, angels, spirits, cryptids, and the weird shit that happens at places like Skinwalker Ranch may not be as separate or unrelated as one may initially think.

    What that means, how its possible, and what it is, I haven't the slightest clue.

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    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Indigris View Post
    I agree 100% with your statements, Aragorn. In my opinion, there are millions being taken globally, and that at least some of them have been with us for eons. I'm also of the opinion that this civilization isn't the first one to reach this level (or higher) of technological advancement. If we were to have a global nuclear war tomorrow, and annihilate ourselves, 10,000 years down the road, whatever sentient species pops up would find only traces of what we were, if any. How advanced and pervasive the last civilization(s) before us were, I cannot say, but there was clearly something, and it was far more advanced than conventional history would have us believe.

    I did not, however, mention any of this in my first post, just to keep things as neutral as possible.

    That being said, I'm going to play Devil's advocate here: just because they haven't all-out invaded or attacked us yet, does not mean that they don't intend to, or won't. Now, to be clear, I am not saying that the ETs are here to eradicate us all, and are evil or whatever (to me, the concept of pure evil is a bit too simplistic). I'm simply saying that thinking they won't attack or invade because they haven't yet is a bit fallacious. Here's just a few reasons why, based off some quick brainstorming:

    - They're waiting for the right time. They had to give us a chance to evolve on our own, to see how we turned out, what we made of ourselves. After all, we could have gone so many different ways. We could have been potential allies, or enemies, or a threat (supposedly nuclear bombs impact more than just this dimension). But maybe, once we reach a certain level of potential, we'll have to be eradicated, like an invasive species (which we kind of are, if we're being honest with ourselves)
    That is possible, yes.

    Quote Originally posted by Indigris View Post
    - For whatever reasons, they cannot or will not attack a less-evolved species directly or through violent means, at least not without cause (could be some kind of galactic law, as one example). Kind of like how, even though the USA could nuke the hell out of North Korea or forcibly liberate its people, it wouldn't dare because of the global ramifications. Maybe that violates the alleged Prime Directive-esque law that ETs are said to abide by. Covert invasion (through, say, the hybrid program) could be some kind of loophole, for all we know.
    Good points. I reckon that if they were to openly invade us, some of the benevolent ones might not be willing to allow that to happen, and this could cause an interstellar or even intergalactic conflict that nobody "up there" is waiting for.

    At the same time, the creation of hybrids and having them live on Earth among the native humans could indeed, as you say, be an ethical loophole. Because even if those hybrids were not born here on Earth, if they mate with an indigenous human being, then their offspring would be born here, and then this offspring would also be entitled to the same use of Earth's resources as the indigenous humans are.

    Quote Originally posted by Indigris View Post
    - And of course, it's entirely possible that there are no ETs, and the whole phenomenon is an artificially induced illusion created by humans for who-knows-what purposes. In which case, the invasion would either a) not be possible or b) a false flag coming at a later date
    That too is a theoretical possibility, but personally I'm pretty much convinced that they're out there ─ wherever they come from ─ because of the many sightings and the technology involved. Even if those ships are human-made, then that technology has had to come from somewhere, and humanity simply isn't anywhere near the intellectual and spiritual levels required for developing such advanced technology all of its own account ─ not even within the black budget projects.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    Jacques Vallee wrote several books where he explored the possibility of 'for who-knows-what purposes'. It was a radical departure from his earlier nuts-and-bolts perspective. He conjectured and this is pretty much a part of the common parlance at this point, that a covert human organization could use this approach to take over the world. He also considered the 'demonic' and/or just spiritual or even interdimensional aspect.


    I have always thought that Vallee's perspective merits close attention because it stems from best scientific principles presently available and , at minimum , from the application of Occam's razor .

    Without wanting to appear derogatory and /or patronising about abductee testimony , all other reasons ---- including non - abductee possible reasons and scenarios ------- need strict evaluation before full credence can be scientifically attributed to reported abductee incidents . Anecdotal evidence may be completely sincere and honest from the victim's perspective , but that is not the way proof is made using the the scientific process . We all know how other scenarios are equally valid in principle --- engineered mind control / manipulation etc etc .

    And however much it offends those that believe we can receive information from non terrestrial entities or from other dimensions , the likely scientific probability of such matters actually occurring is marginal . This is because there is no scientific proof yet of any such instance having happened or any significance of any reported messages ever being new , novel or giving accurate and specific forecasts of future events .

    For what it is worth I have always found that the full implications of Operation Paper Clip ( the Nazi move into America to create the Fourth Reich ) plus the creation of the CIA in 1947 are far more likely factors to explain subsequent narratives in these discussion areas . Until proved otherwise , they deserve the fullest consideration and particularly because they seem the most likely -- Occam's Razor once more . All imho .

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    Nice response, Mr. Christopher:

    Here's one I suggest that Giovonni cited. It seems you might have a 'hard' scientific approach to things, but if you read this you might be surprised... It is in line with much contemporary scientific thought.

    An End to Upside Down Thinking: Dispelling the Myth That the Brain Produces Consciousness, and the Implications for Everyday Life

    - Mark Gober -

    Focusing on ideas about consciousness that “fly in the face of mainstream scientific thought,” this book will surely spark some lively conversation. Gober, a senior member of the business consultancy Sherpa Technology Group, warns readers may “need to suspend everything you thought you knew about reality” before beginning—a big request. What he posits is that “consciousness does not come from the brain” and is “nonlocal,” and that consciousness “survives the death of the physical body.” Heady concepts, but he does the heavy lifting by giving quotes from an abundance of notable experts, descriptions of scientific experiments, and useful end-of-chapter summaries. Supporting scientific studies—from a laser physicist in Stanford, primary sources from the U.S. government’s “Stargate” study of psychic phenomena, and more—explore remote viewing, telepathy, and other extrasensory abilities. Gober also considers larger concepts, such as near-death and “shared-death” experiences. Taking on skeptics, he suggests that today scientists are “afraid to talk about” these “taboo” topics, and asserts one doesn’t need to “know how a phenomenon works in order to accept that it does exist.” This unusual treatise leaves readers with much to ponder, and with enough information to make up their own minds.
    "We are one thought away from changing the world!"

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    Senior Member palooka's revenge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Christopher View Post
    I have always thought that Vallee's perspective merits close attention because it stems from best scientific principles presently available and , at minimum , from the application of Occam's razor .

    Without wanting to appear derogatory and /or patronising about abductee testimony , all other reasons ---- including non - abductee possible reasons and scenarios ------- need strict evaluation before full credence can be scientifically attributed to reported abductee incidents . Anecdotal evidence may be completely sincere and honest from the victim's perspective , but that is not the way proof is made using the the scientific process . We all know how other scenarios are equally valid in principle --- engineered mind control / manipulation etc etc .

    And however much it offends those that believe we can receive information from non terrestrial entities or from other dimensions , the likely scientific probability of such matters actually occurring is marginal . This is because there is no scientific proof yet of any such instance having happened or any significance of any reported messages ever being new , novel or giving accurate and specific forecasts of future events .

    For what it is worth I have always found that the full implications of Operation Paper Clip ( the Nazi move into America to create the Fourth Reich ) plus the creation of the CIA in 1947 are far more likely factors to explain subsequent narratives in these discussion areas . Until proved otherwise , they deserve the fullest consideration and particularly because they seem the most likely -- Occam's Razor once more . All imho .
    imho... the gap between science and what is called pseudoscience has begun to close... which is to say the gap between the physical and the metaphysical. in the chakra lineup, this is primarily the gap between purple and blue.

    one example of this are the remote viewers despite there bein' a whole lotta disinfo and misinfo bein' spread around... mostly because remote viewing lay within the purview of human potential 'n there are most def forces heavily invested in discrediting that... some of which are the very ones presenting as being remote viewers...

    the story was written all over antiquity... ie... going back to the greek city states under attack by rome (not to mention their own in-fighting) where the seer was leaned on heavily to change what she was seeing.

    so, right now it's kinda up to the indigo seers who've been caught in the squeeze between purple and blue from the very beginning.. if they move what they need to move that gap will begin to close more quickly 'n even Occum will bear this out as what is currently unseen will become seen... which is to say what lurks in the darkness will come into the light 'n NOT the other way round...

    if we don't blow ourselves up first... cuz THAT potential is certainly in the cards...

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    Despite my apparent hard line , NAP , I am completely ( !) flexible and accommodating of new hard evidence . As a true Contrarian I can never be embarrassed by needing to alter my world view -- just pleased to find better solutions and invariably simpler and more elegant solutions to complex problems .

    I am not yet aware of Giovanni but separately already appreciate that the brain is not just local in function and operations and, most interesting , increasingly what seems to happen between our ears appears to be in line with Quantum theory predictions and findings .
    On common sense ( to me ) grounds I believe that the mind and brain are not just different labels for one centre . However , I have no idea yet how to rationally explain why this is a scientific fact .

    I am eager to find out what the proof is that consciousness survives physical death . Naturally I appreciate that the notions of after life and multiple incarnations etc are implicitly connected to this being true and should it ever be proved untrue our lives would be rather pointless imho and incline me more to us being Lab rats . Quite possible if you believe Annunaki type history .

    It is tragic that top scientists avoid subjects like these but as long as houses and children need paying for etc this tragic situation is unlikely to change .

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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    Nice response, Mr. Christopher:

    Here's one I suggest that Giovonni cited. It seems you might have a 'hard' scientific approach to things, but if you read this you might be surprised... It is in line with much contemporary scientific thought.

    An End to Upside Down Thinking: Dispelling the Myth That the Brain Produces Consciousness, and the Implications for Everyday Life

    - Mark Gober -

    Focusing on ideas about consciousness that “fly in the face of mainstream scientific thought,” this book will surely spark some lively conversation. Gober, a senior member of the business consultancy Sherpa Technology Group, warns readers may “need to suspend everything you thought you knew about reality” before beginning—a big request. What he posits is that “consciousness does not come from the brain” and is “nonlocal,” and that consciousness “survives the death of the physical body.” Heady concepts, but he does the heavy lifting by giving quotes from an abundance of notable experts, descriptions of scientific experiments, and useful end-of-chapter summaries. Supporting scientific studies—from a laser physicist in Stanford, primary sources from the U.S. government’s “Stargate” study of psychic phenomena, and more—explore remote viewing, telepathy, and other extrasensory abilities. Gober also considers larger concepts, such as near-death and “shared-death” experiences. Taking on skeptics, he suggests that today scientists are “afraid to talk about” these “taboo” topics, and asserts one doesn’t need to “know how a phenomenon works in order to accept that it does exist.” This unusual treatise leaves readers with much to ponder, and with enough information to make up their own minds.
    good point NAP. and the more is done studying the brain the more it's clear it is reactionary. now, the mind... it's reactionary too but in a whole nother way...

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