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Thread: This new history of the Christian genocide during the Ottoman Empire sounds a dark warning for the future

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    This new history of the Christian genocide during the Ottoman Empire sounds a dark warning for the future

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a8790316.html


    Is it possible for a people to be so inured to cruelty that they changed, that their acts of sadism could alter their humanity?

    Robert Fisk
    Middle East Correspondent

    Israeli historian Benny Morris doesn’t do things by half. The footnotes of his new book on the 30-year genocide of Christians by their Turkish rulers, cowritten with his colleague Dror Zeevi, take up more than a fifth of the 640-page work. “It was nine years, a long haul,” he admitted to me this week, with an audible sigh over the phone. And he talks about the involvement of Ataturk in the later stages of the genocide of around 2.5 million Christians of the Ottoman empire; how “religions do drive people to excessive violence” – he has in mind the Turks, Isis, the Crusades – and even condemns the Arabs for their inability to criticise themselves.

    The mere title of the Morris-Zeevi book, The Thirty-Year Genocide: Turkey’s Destruction of Its Christian Minorities 1894-1924, is going to have the Turks enraged, from Erdogan down. The Armenians and other Christians will dispute his apparent claim that he has only just discovered that their slaughter lasted for 30 years – others have talked of the Armenian genocide of 1915 bookended by the late 19th-century massacres in Turkey and the post-1915 killing of surviving Armenians and Greeks, Assyrians and others. And the Arab world will challenge his view that the holocaust (my word) of Christians was more motivated by Islam than Turkish nationalism.

    Having written about the genocide of the Armenians for 35 years, I have doubts that the actual call for “jihad” in the Turkish Ottoman empire unleashed at the start of the First World War was as ferocious as Morris makes it out to be. Muftis were indeed told they were in a holy war against Christians – but not against German Christians, Austro-Hungarian Christians, neutral Christians or allies of the Central Powers (Bulgaria, for example). Many Muslim worshippers, sitting on the carpets of mosque floors, must have shaken their heads in puzzlement at these caveats. Well, one way was to notice the German officers training the Ottoman army, the German diplomats and businessmen who witnessed the genocide of the Armenians with their own eyes, and wrote home about it. Hitler asked his generals who now remembered the Armenians just before invading Poland in 1939.

    But again and again, I was brought up short by the sheer, terrible, shocking accounts of violence in Morris’s and Zeevi’s work. “Strident religiosity” moved through the Muslim lands, write the authors.

    The date: 1895. The place: Severek. The witness: Armenian survivor Abraham Hartunian. “The first attack was on our pastor [Mardiros Bozyakalian]. The blow of an axe decapitated him. His blood, spurting in all directions, spattered the walls and ceiling with red. Then I was in the midst of the butchers. One of them drew his dagger … Three blows fell on my head. My blood began to flow like a fountain … The attackers [were] sure that I was dead … Then they slaughtered the other men in the room, took the prettier women with them for rape …”

    Now it is July 1915. The place: Merzifon. The witness: missionary JK Marsden. “They were in groups of four with their arms tied behind them and their deportation began with perhaps 100 … in a batch … they were taken about 12 miles across the plains, stripped of their clothing and, in front of a ditch previously prepared, were compelled to kneel down while a group of villagers with knives and axes quickly disposed of them. For a week, this was repeated until 1,230 of the leading Armenian men had been disposed of.”

    In January 1920, YMCA secretary CFH Crathern was in Marash. The wife of an Armenian pastor had reached his hospital. “She was bleeding … from three bullet and three dagger or knife wounds while a child of 18 months had been taken from her breast and slain with a knife, and an older girl killed with an axe. To add to the sorrow of it, this woman was pregnant and had a miscarriage as soon as she reached the hospital.” The woman died the following day.

    I have repeated above only a few of the less bloody episodes from the 30 years. I will spare readers the chopped off fingers, the thousands of raped girls, the priests beheaded or burned on crucifixes.

    In the final annihilation of the Armenians, an American missionary spoke of “minds obsessed with Muslim fanaticism seven times heated”. Turks, he wrote, had “become drunk with blood and rapine, and plunder and power, and he will be a different man from what he was before the atrocities”. Benny Morris thinks it was more to do with a mixture of modern nationalism and the decline of “Islamic polity”.

    I discussed all this with him. Is it possible for a people to be so inured to cruelty that they changed, that their acts of sadism could alter their humanity? Religions drive people to excessive violence, he said again, and then repeated this as “excessive sadism”. Morris agreed that the Romans were cruel, but they were pagans. “In terms of religion, the Romans were amateurs. Abrahamic religions drive people to excess.” Jews had avoided this. Palestinians will disagree.

    There is certainly a frightening geographical scope to the killings. Many thousands of horrors were perpetrated in Mosul, Raqqa, Manbij and Deir ez-Zor, names grimly familiar from the Isis torments of 2014 onwards.

    Why, one keeps asking, didn’t the Christians leave after 1924? But of course, they had been urged to return to settle in Cilicia and in Mesopotamia and Syria by the French and British – who left; and thus the Christian descendants waited for the next generational bloodletting.

    The Turks were not the only killers, and Kurds also killed the Christians for the Turks, as Ukrainians killed the Jews for the Nazi Germans. At one point in Morris’s text, a group of Circassians plait a rope 25 yards long from the hair of young women they have killed, and send it as a present to their commander.

    Mustafa Kemal Ataturk gets pretty well trashed in this volume. “There are accounts of him saying in 1922 that, ‘Our aim is to get rid of the Christians’ – he said this in a number of conversations,” Morris contends. “He gave orders, and men in his later government were responsible.” But if this 30-year history of blood was fuelled by “Muslim fanaticism”, there are “good Turks” in the book. In the first massacres, government officials arrested Essad Bey, an “honest, impartial and tolerant” judge who tried to help the Christians. There is a heroic Turkish doctor who throws out his sick Turkish soldiers from a hospital and replaces them with Armenian refugees. Missionary Tacy Atkinson hoped to meet the doctor one day “in the Kingdom of Heaven”. There are others. It’s true that the Greek Christians have fewer historians than the Armenians. Tens of thousands of Greeks were transported to Greece in return for an equal number of Muslims – official agreements kept the massacres a trifle smaller – but Morris and Zeevi give too little attention to the awe in which the Nazis held Ataturk’s people.

    Ataturk himself cared little for Islam: he smoked and womanised, and was a nationalist before he was a Muslim. The Nazis admired his “Turkified” non-minority republic. When he died, the front page of Volkischer Beobachter was fringed in black.

    The authors briefly compare the Jewish Holocaust and the Armenian genocide – I prefer the terms Jewish Holocaust and Armenian Holocaust – and there are some already published parallels. Armenians might be spared if they would convert to Islam or marry Muslim men. Jews could not save their lives by converting. The Turkish massacres were more sadistic. I rather think the German-inspired slaughter could be just as bad in the Second World War: witness the head-chopping at the Jasenovac camp on the Croatian-Bosnian border. Persecution of the Jews under the Nazis lasted at most 12 years, but persecution of Christians in Ottoman territories 30 years.

    German civilians played little role in the Jewish Holocaust. Turkish civilians played a far greater role. If 2.5 million Christians is the correct figure for those murdered in the 30 years – Morris warned me that it cannot be accurately tallied, and I’m sure he’s right – at least six million Jews were killed in the 1939-1945 period, and so it took the Nazis five times as few years to slaughter more than twice as many human beings. The Turks simply didn’t have the industrial tools to kill more Christians more quickly, because these mechanics were unavailable at the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries. But working on this basis, how many people will be killed in the future – and how quickly – with new technology?

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    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Rape is not consistent with any God...rape and murder is consistent with 'the selfish gene'...The source of animalistic evil.
    "We are one thought away from changing the world!"

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    I wiĺl once again reiterate, that the Lord insists there are but two Universal lores, one - you shaĺl not harm another person which of course includes rape, pillage and slaughter, and you shall not under any circumstances, inhibit in any way, the right of a person who has a soul, from following their own pathway. This includes such a simple thing as saying yourself, or one else, is better than someone else. This can limit a person's growth by not thinking they are good enough, or don't have the right to exist. By cutting off a person's life, before their time, is anothe thing which is covered by both lores. The only thing that tells you when it is time to die is your own soul, nothing else, unless you are beyond the contribution to own or respond to any soul link.

    The one who is responsible for allowing you to have a life, is the soul keeper. It is she who decides upon any penalty to be imposed on you, for the horrendous acts of rape, murder, or being responsible for one else suffering because the order is given to others to carry out an act which will result in harming acts. The person giving the orders in times of war and aggressions is ultimately decided as the one to receive the punishment, but the ones carrying out the orders are carefully scrutinized as th the manner of their response. The cost is yours, to own
    own, if you should cause death tpo one else.

    Karma is the story of Lilith, not that of the Soul Keeper, and she it is who pours something into such an offender to feel gilt. Better people have a second chance, for they do feel the horror of a killing, ordered by one else, but the Soul Keeper, will insist on the life ending, if the do not have a soul link to the Above. The new vehicle to collect the offenders is a Cadillac. When you climb into the Cadillac the Spirit life ends and you exist no more. Lilith may then say the Soul now belongs to her, and must do her bidding. There is a template left, or ghost, which can demand to her a belief still exists, within themselves and she may place the ghost on to another soulless human being, who will then become mind controlled by the ghost, which seldom comes good.

    Life then becomes contestible to these people, for they have no will of their own, only the ghost and Lilith, rule over these persons lives.

    Since our religious teachings, were written by those with no knowing of the true following of a pathway, then our religious teachers are themselves, breaking the two lores, as are government bodies who insist upon their right to decide about participation in a war, but those who take part in the wish to defend home and hearth and their own threatened country, are not punished if they continue to fight with compassionate belie
    Last edited by Cearna, 25th February 2019 at 15:27.
    You are what you are, no more, no less. The fact is, that all is not what it seems to be, some may be great, some may be small, but to your own want to be free, I say, you never were not free. It is what your own Self, gave yourself to be in, that's what makes you what you are. Loving kindness be upon you and yours.

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    That previous post by Cearna was written in Aianawese. Does he do language instruction now? Is Aianawese now a listed language of Duolingo?

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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    That previous post by Cearna was written in Aianawese. Does he do language instruction now? Is Aianawese now a listed language of Duolingo?
    In her defense, Cearna is typing on a tablet, and she has just had carpal tunnel surgery.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    In her defense, Cearna is typing on a tablet, and she has just had carpal tunnel surgery.
    Oh, I don't mind at all. Half the fun on this forum is trying to solve linguistic puzzles such as these. Makes things far more interesting. I think I managed to decipher most of it, at least the gist.

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    Senior Member Cearna's Avatar
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    Sorry Chris, the first part of this was written by me, but when I got to the part about the lores, I went to a higher authority, who calls himself the - The Highest One - these
    God's have a language of their own, which I speak, but never in a million years could I type this language, it's about akin to speaking Finnish, only much worse. When they speak in English, they have trouble, and seem to be happier with an older versionof something like english.

    I find it difficult to alter as I type,at the same time as i hear it and see it spelt out to me on an alphabet. I use a pendulum, to spell out the words on the ahabet which is how I was taught to channel, by Marnie, who used to channel Seth. I cannot stay in a trance to speak what comes from the entity, and type at the same time, especially on the tablet, which is hypersensitive, to my now old, earthritic fingers.

    My unit at the moment is crowded with newly brought in stuff from my old abode and I'm having to use my fat massagers fingers to type with. Over time you might get used to my mix of my own English, supervised by one of many entities from Above, because I ask for whoever is the most knowing on any topic to guide me in me of my responses. Please recognise, I will be 80 in April, so technology is not my forte.
    Last edited by Cearna, 25th February 2019 at 15:21.
    You are what you are, no more, no less. The fact is, that all is not what it seems to be, some may be great, some may be small, but to your own want to be free, I say, you never were not free. It is what your own Self, gave yourself to be in, that's what makes you what you are. Loving kindness be upon you and yours.

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    Senior Member Aianawa's Avatar
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    Some may say we both a wee bit crazy wordy wisey wise Chris, Cearna Kitty is a good teacher.

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    Senior Member Cearna's Avatar
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    Could be we are antipoderian, as well, you know we are our own selves here, such a mixture up of languages, but I think Chris, we all do care about your topic, no matter how it is written.
    You are what you are, no more, no less. The fact is, that all is not what it seems to be, some may be great, some may be small, but to your own want to be free, I say, you never were not free. It is what your own Self, gave yourself to be in, that's what makes you what you are. Loving kindness be upon you and yours.

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    Quote Originally posted by Aianawa View Post
    Some may say we both a wee bit crazy wordy wisey wise Chris, Cearna Kitty is a good teacher.
    Not to mention that standing on your heads all day down under must make life quite a bit challenging

    Must say I prefer the standing on our two feet lifestyle of us uplanders.

    Quote Originally posted by Cearna View Post
    Sorry Chris, the first part of this was written by me, but when I got to the part about the loser, I went to a higher authority, who calls himself the - The Highest One - these
    God's have a language of their own, which I speak, but never in a million years could I type this, it's about akin to speaking Finish, only much worse. When they speak in English, they have trouble, and seem to be happier wit
    H an older version, but I find it difficult to alter as I type at the same time as i hear it and see it spelt out to me pon an alphabet and using a pendulum, which is how i was taught to channel, by Marnie, who used to channel Seth. I cannot stay in a trance to speak what comes from the entity, and type at the same time, especially on the tablet which is hypersensitive, to my now old earthritic fingers.

    My unit at the moment is crowded with newly brought in stuff from my old abode and I'm having to use my fat massagers fingers to type with. Over time you might get used to my mix of my own English, supervised by one of many entities from Above, because I ask for whoever is the most knowing on any topic to guide me in some of my responses. Please recognise, I will be 80 in april, so technology is not my forte.
    That is very interesting, I have some experience with that sort of thing as well. Respect for what you can do at 80, not that one should ever discuss a woman's age of course, but since you brought it up...

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    Senior Member palooka's revenge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Cearna View Post
    I wiĺl once again reiterate, that the Lord insists there are but two Universal lores, one you shaĺl not harm another person which of course includes rape, pillage and slaughter, and you shall not under any circumstances, inhibit in any way, the right of a person who has a soul, from following their own pathway this includes such a simple thong as saying yourself or one else is better than someone else, if it limits a person's growth by not thinking they are good enough, or don't have the right to exist, or in fact by cutting off a person's life, before their time, the only thing that tells you when it is time to die is your own soul, nothing else, unless you are beyond the contribution to own or respond to any soul link.

    The penalty for not allowing the gilt to follow such an act, as being the person responsible for commencing a war, or an assault on another human being, is now the responsibility of the Soul Keeper, who is responsible fpr allowing you to have a life, and is linked to you realising that the cost is yours to own if you should death cost to one else. Karma is the story of Lilith, not that of the Soul Keeper, and she it is who pours something into such an offender to feel gilt is not to belong to them, if best ones, to have a second chance, for they do feel the horror of a killing, ordered by one else, but the Soul Keeper, will insist on the life ending with no soul link to the Above to remain, so the Cadillac, which is the now vehicle to pick up such offenders, and the Spirit life ends. Lolita may then say the Soul now belongs to her, and must do her bidding, so the template left, or ghost, can demand to her a belief still exists, and she may place the ghost on to another soulless human being, who will then become mind controlled by the ghost,And seldom comes good.

    Life then becomes contestiblto these people, for they have no will of their own, only the ghost and Lilith, rule over these persons lives. Since our religious teachings, were written by those with no knowing of the true following of a pathway, then our religious teachers are themselves, breaking the two loser, as are government bodies who insist upon their right to decide about participation in a war, but those who takpart in the wish to defend home and hearth and their own threatened country, are not punished if they continue to fight with compassionate belief.

    I find this....

    you shall not under any circumstances, inhibit in any way, the right of a person who has a soul, from following their own pathway this includes such a simple thong as saying yourself or one else is better than someone else, if it limits a person's growth by not thinking they are good enough, or don't have the right to exist, or in fact by cutting off a person's life, before their time, the only thing that tells you when it is time to die is your own soul, nothing else, unless you are beyond the contribution to own or respond to any soul link.


    To be in alignment with this....

    I have no further tolerance for any spirits giving pain to others who have not overtly agreed to receive it. There has been such a thing as overriding of Free Will in the experience of My created Spirits. I have let this go on only long enough for Spirits to see why the Will is so necessary. Now, I have discerned that there has been enough experience. There is no longer any power to override another's Will, period. Your own Will can only be overridden by your own denials. This has to be understood. Free Will between people means that you have the freedom to do whatever you want, but you are not to encroach on another or try to make anyone else function within your own limits. You only have the power to make them take it away from you or to take yourself away from them. There is no power anymore to stop anyone from experiencing themselves. If you go against this you are going against Me.


    quote lifted from pg viii of the intro to this book...

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    Senior Member palooka's revenge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Cearna View Post
    for they have no will of their own,

    lotta that goin' around....

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    Senior Member Cearna's Avatar
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    Yeh, well I've met a lot of early twenties young people, who were struggling with life, because of the belief that they didn't have the right to exist, from their treatment in earlier years.

    I know this is a bit off topic, but since I was a run away from my marriage, because of the threat of a fist in the mouth unless I did as I was told, i was lucky enough to get five people to help me get away into a nursing home till a place could be found for me. The point of this is that since then I have had so many women confess on the quiet to me, that they were in the same boat, some still ready to run if the kids might be in danger, so my ideas of what life is about is still tinged in fear, but by God I once again know what a difference it is to live in our country of Australia, where the government are more active to see to the needs of the elderly in need, and those in domestic violence, and the need for health care to the disadvantaged. Ainawa, I'm, not the same person I was this sort of thing knocks you about, so topics like this cris hit some people hard, I was born in the year, that world war 11 began, which was not all that much after the Depression, so we lived in the aftermath of such as this,s topic, and it very much influenced my growing up period,so means a lot to how I feel about seeking for the eternal answers.
    You are what you are, no more, no less. The fact is, that all is not what it seems to be, some may be great, some may be small, but to your own want to be free, I say, you never were not free. It is what your own Self, gave yourself to be in, that's what makes you what you are. Loving kindness be upon you and yours.

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    Thanks for the ref and link, palooka. I know you've mentioned this book before, and it's a good reminder to me that it's one I want to get hold of. (I bet my mother in law has or had it)

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    Senior Member Cearna's Avatar
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    To get back to the topic, I've had a couple of experiences I in this life, that hit me greatly, some of you may also respond in some times in yours life, think on them..
    Experience No 1 - earlier in my life, I went to an old style movie to watch Exodus later red the book. Now, I do cry at many movies, but I just burst into tears, saying over again These are my people, so I found out I must have had many lives as a Jew.

    Experience No 2 - I spent my first day in Tel Av-iv, on a day tour. We went to Massada, a very special place in their history, when i found myself going into work mode and began taking of layer after layer - a bit like making up the core of cricket, golf, or softball, until all layers were removed from around the Earth, the message was that Abraham made a covenant with God for the Jews to suffer, and now I was saying their suffering was over, and if the suffer after that they bring it on themselves. The other part of the message, was that these belts as round the Earth, were put there at the end of the Age of the Ram, when people had turned to the worshiping of golden statuettes. It was decided that if we wished to follow Atheistic ways, then, we could just learn to live without spiritual help, and it was only returned to us when I did this in 1988.

    I just want to state that the European coastal and maritime people, began to explore the world to find treasures. Mind you, the Mayan, had also done so, long before this. It seems, that if someone else appears to be a savage, or heathen, it seems you can just go in to start a war, in order to take over their world. Goodness me, our history is littered with this, Vikings, Chinese, Magyars, Goths, Moors, Turks, Barbarians, Athens, Sparta, Romans, Celts, Roman Catholic Church, Portuguese, Spanish, French, German, Belgian, American, just about everyone throughout time, seems to have looked at rivers, and oceans, to try to imagine what is beyond that which they can see. They want to trade, to own that something new, and don't want to share or care about the men women and children who are killed or maimed to own the riches and glory of finding this new source of wonders, which seems inevitably to end in fight in wars and so often genocide.

    Seems to be O.K. except if you happen to be at the end of the gun or canon,and you have just spears, and curiosity. I wrote on TOT about the Soul, and wrote how my last time here, I was an Australian Aborigine in Stockton, Newcastle, where every member of our tribe, lost their lives as the British came into the harbour for the first time, an we just came to see what this strange thing was, to face a volley of bullets from a few men in a boat.

    What are we as people?
    Last edited by Elen, 24th February 2019 at 08:36. Reason: Spellcheck for Colleen :)
    You are what you are, no more, no less. The fact is, that all is not what it seems to be, some may be great, some may be small, but to your own want to be free, I say, you never were not free. It is what your own Self, gave yourself to be in, that's what makes you what you are. Loving kindness be upon you and yours.

  30. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Cearna For This Useful Post:

    Aianawa (24th February 2019), Aragorn (24th February 2019), Chris (24th February 2019), Elen (24th February 2019)

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