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Thread: Why isn't religion spiritual?

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    Senior Member Chuckie's Avatar
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    Why isn't religion spiritual?

    This thread is intended to examine 'spirituality'. My own interest revolves around 'religion' and why social justice warriors won't broach the subject ... There's a hook in there, so be careful.



    My own example is my interpretation of the supposed admonitions of biblical text against race mixing. My instinct of those formed long ago and goes like this: The notion of it came into being because of ancient racial memories regarding a diversity of proto-humans ... Neanderthal, Denisovans, etc. But that was before i had a name for them. So, of course, those scientific revelations only bolstered my ongoing sense that I'm ALWAYS right ... Anyway ... enjoy your spirituality not religion.

    My real intent was to pursue hermeneutics in general but I couldn't find a good starting image ...

    “To seek self-knowledge is to embark on a journey which ... will always be incomplete" - courtesy of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

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    Super Moderator Wind's Avatar
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    When it comes to any religion, I've always had a problem with them because of dogma. I think all of them contain the deep truth about God and nature of life, but often it's very shrouded in whatever form and also there's a lot disinfo and false teachings mixed with it. I hate it when religion becomes a political tool. I'm still part of the Christian Church and I do revere Christ in my own way, not in the way someone else tells me as they don't know what I've experienced, but even then I've always found something like Buddhism far more closer to me with it's idea. Yet I wouldn't want to say that I'm a Buddhist either. I like to examine and understand religions, but the key point is spirituality and I don't need a religion for that. All of those religions do point to one single truth and reality.


    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hX2QP6NnaNI


    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9Onhg_CENE
    Last edited by Wind, 31st October 2021 at 19:51.

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    Senior Member Chuckie's Avatar
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    I think that Ken Wilber would certainly agree that we have to integrate the notion of religion and spirituality from all sources. It is the meta again, it is where the truth resides. Much as God is hidden in the quantum reality within Planck's constant.
    “To seek self-knowledge is to embark on a journey which ... will always be incomplete" - courtesy of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

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    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    I think that Ken Wilber would certainly agree that we have to integrate the notion of religion and spirituality from all sources. It is the meta again, it is where the truth resides. Much as God is hidden in the quantum reality within Planck's constant.
    I thought he was hiding in the Higgs boson.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Senior Member Chuckie's Avatar
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    hmm, I'll have to think about that one. The problem is I've always felt that I could not believe in the Higgs boson until I could see it.
    “To seek self-knowledge is to embark on a journey which ... will always be incomplete" - courtesy of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

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    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    hmm, I'll have to think about that one. The problem is I've always felt that I could not believe in the Higgs boson until I could see it.
    Well, they called it the God Particle for a reason.





    A Higgs boson is sitting at the bar, enjoying a drink when suddenly the phone rings. So he says to the bartender...

    "If that's a scientist, tell him you haven't seen me."



    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Senior Member Chuckie's Avatar
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    aaaaa lol, that's a good one. That goes on my list of favorite jokes that make people go hmmm. I just love those.
    “To seek self-knowledge is to embark on a journey which ... will always be incomplete" - courtesy of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

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    Senior Member Chuckie's Avatar
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    Name:  jocr.v1i1.67.fp - Copy.jpg
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    “To seek self-knowledge is to embark on a journey which ... will always be incomplete" - courtesy of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

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    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    I picked this thread because I find its baseline question relevant. After watching the video Octopus Garden posted in Gio's thread, I looked further and found this video about the Hasidim. I've known Orthodox Jews and I've written about it here. My favorite story about a Hasidic Jew centered around a man who wanted to have a music career and named himself Curly Oxide. I loved the story. He struggled, but ended up marrying the girl his mother found for him. The man who produced the story was privileged to be inside the community, including for a marriage, which he never would have been otherwise.

    The elements standing out to me in this story here address the title question, is there spirituality? Early in the video, a man describes labor as easy when you know you're carrying diamonds and not just rocks. Another compares the gifts of their heritage to gold and silver objects which need to be polished.

    I find the metaphors of wealth to be revealing. The spirit has no need for diamonds, gold or silver.


    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8Dkccqm8oY


    The violence of a whole community towards a girl is really shocking to me. I understand how deep the mentality goes, whether it's orthodoxy or scientology, and it remains shocking.

    And the current move here in the US to control peoples' behavior and undermine rights to privacy are quite disturbing.

    I hope folks are paying attention rather than falling for the hype about leaks or some other distraction.

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    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    At 32:38, "It's as if they wrote their own Bible." I'd say it's exactly that. And sadly, it's not just that community. Beware those who tell you they KNOW what's right or who's a (fill-in-the-blank).

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    While there is a great amount of wisdom and knowledge in religions, and I respect religions for that, many religions are closed off to different ways of thinking about the same thing, and new ideas. They don't understand different paths of spirituality and spiritual exploration besides the path that they have.

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    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    The father, pictured in the video image, discusses with his sons his hope of them coming back into the fold. They give him logical and experiential arguments. He gives them metaphors, similes, homilies, parables, etc. He has a response for whatever they say. Most seem to be warnings about the dangers of the outside world/leaving the fold.

    The father's bottom line is that you have one life here, maybe 120 years, and that's it. It's about serving God. And then it's the eternal afterwards. I don't believe that we have just one life. I believe that we reincarnate. One life isn't enough to learn all the things. Especially 613 commandments and the thousands of others in the Talmud and the Torah.

    In a different video, a rabbi describe the outside world as degenerate and outsiders as 'looking down on them'. I'm not sure how he would know that when he doesn't go into the outside world, doesn't know what they think or feel. It's quite a judgement to call people degenerate when you don't know their lives.

    But I find that it's easy for very religious people to judge others, even when their scriptures say that they shouldn't. It's a human weakness made worse under these circumstances.

    In this video, the older son struggles with breaking the line of heritage. The younger doesn't. I feel for the older son and I feel for the father who is seeing his lineage fall. (even though I don't personally believe his lineage falls. His genes continue and his family continues. But, to him, if it's outside of their tradition it doesn't count).

    This is when I start to think that the 'god' they worship is not God at all. Perhaps just a lower entity who likes such devotees. Every aspect of life is controlled. Lack of freedom of expression is unhealthy, and communities become unhealthy. The sort of deity who likes that is not the highest sort, imo.

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    Senior Member Chuckie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    The father, pictured in the video image, discusses with his sons his hope of them coming back into the fold. They give him logical and experiential arguments. He gives them metaphors, similes, homilies, parables, etc. He has a response for whatever they say. Most seem to be warnings about the dangers of the outside world/leaving the fold.

    The father's bottom line is that you have one life here, maybe 120 years, and that's it. It's about serving God. And then it's the eternal afterwards. I don't believe that we have just one life. I believe that we reincarnate. One life isn't enough to learn all the things. Especially 613 commandments and the thousands of others in the Talmud and the Torah.

    In a different video, a rabbi describe the outside world as degenerate and outsiders as 'looking down on them'. I'm not sure how he would know that when he doesn't go into the outside world, doesn't know what they think or feel. It's quite a judgement to call people degenerate when you don't know their lives.

    But I find that it's easy for very religious people to judge others, even when their scriptures say that they shouldn't. It's a human weakness made worse under these circumstances.

    In this video, the older son struggles with breaking the line of heritage. The younger doesn't. I feel for the older son and I feel for the father who is seeing his lineage fall. (even though I don't personally believe his lineage falls. His genes continue and his family continues. But, to him, if it's outside of their tradition it doesn't count).

    This is when I start to think that the 'god' they worship is not God at all. Perhaps just a lower entity who likes such devotees. Every aspect of life is controlled. Lack of freedom of expression is unhealthy, and communities become unhealthy. The sort of deity who likes that is not the highest sort, imo.
    Orthodox Jews, I suppose failed to understand the new covenant brought by Jesus, who in my estimation says it all. The number one principle put forth was 'spiritual generosity'. Christian conservatives always fall back to the old testament with all its 'wrath' which is really just a reflection of ancient culture, hence, in that regard is more Jewish than Christian and actually it is the same with Muslims. All conservatives, of course. A different human subspecies.
    “To seek self-knowledge is to embark on a journey which ... will always be incomplete" - courtesy of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    But I find that it's easy for very religious people to judge others, even when their scriptures say that they shouldn't. It's a human weakness made worse under these circumstances.
    I remember hearing "hate the sin but love the sinner" before being old enough to decide for myself whether religion was or wasn't for me. Of course that was Christianity not Judaism, and evangelical at that, but even so, religion in general sure like to scan the horizon for no no's committed by the unforgiven.

    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    This is when I start to think that the 'god' they worship is not God at all. Perhaps just a lower entity who likes such devotees. Every aspect of life is controlled. Lack of freedom of expression is unhealthy, and communities become unhealthy. The sort of deity who likes that is not the highest sort, imo.
    That's it 100%. My eyes practically roll back in my head when listening to the occasional hell fire and brimstone Sunday morning preacher, when they inevitably start throwing roses at the feet of Yahweh, the supposed great creator god of anger and vengeance. For all I know this may be an actual being, but he sure as hell ain't no being who created the universe and all life within it. More like on the magician scale, operating within what's already there, and taking advantage of lesser beings.

    Quote Originally posted by Chuckie View Post
    All conservatives, of course. A different human subspecies.
    Speaking of hate the sin but loving the sinner, this is more the way Yahweh would look at "the others", with total disdain and contempt. Yeshua would of course advise the exact opposite.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    I don't believe that we have just one life. I believe that we reincarnate. One life isn't enough to learn all the things.
    Multiple misconceptions there, Sister.

    First of all, we are not here to learn. We are here to experience, which is a different thing. Furthermore, given that we all come from the same source, we are all one, and as such, what is experienced by every individual will ultimately feed back into the Creator Consciousness.

    Secondly, time is not what we experience it to be while dwelling here on this rock in our meatsuit. There are over seven billion living human beings on this planet in this day, and as we are all one, we are all everyone else — at least, consciouswise — and we will all be able to tap into the experiences had by everyone else.

    Reincarnation is real, but it is neither a necessity nor a rule. Those who reincarnate are doing so out of their own volition. Some come back because of unfinished business, or to right a wrong — e.g. they were murdered and they want to come back in order to expose the killer. Most who come back do so simply because they can't get enough of the human experience.

    Greek mythology had an interesting take on the phenomenon. Upon passing over into Hades, souls were given a choice. They could either accept the painful memories of their own mistakes and enter the Greek equivalent of heaven, or they could reject those memories and drink the water of one of the rivers of Hades — I forgot its name — which made them forget who they were, and then they would be reborn with a blank conscience.
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