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Thread: Anger Is a Small Thing

  1. #76
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    How many of his followers actually learned his lessons? There were those giving gifts - to what end? There were those in the commune absorbing and using the money - to what end? There was the guru bringing in the money - to teach and bring enlightenment, and live...

    He created an enterprise out of his spirituality. So did L Ron Hubbard.

    I was reminded of the article about jealousy (related to resentment) which helped provide an evolutionary leap. Perhaps this guru was inadvertently helping evolution.

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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    I was reminded of the article about jealousy (related to resentment) which helped provide an evolutionary leap. Perhaps this guru was inadvertently helping evolution.
    Yes, the 'evolution' in human consciousness.

    Seems to me that this man never wanted people to be following him, as in 'followers'. But, to follow that guru that is found within each & every one of us.
    Last edited by turiya, 18th November 2018 at 14:01.

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    Quote Originally posted by turiya View Post
    Seems to me that this man never wanted people to be following him, as in 'followers'. But, to follow that guru that is found within each & every one of us.

    "If you meet the Buddha on your path, kill him."

    (Zen quote)
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    "If you meet the Buddha on your path, kill him."

    (Zen quote)
    Exactly.

    I think that is in reference to whatever anybody else has said, or is saying. That would include that which has been written, as in scriptures, or in any other so-called 'holy book'. Forget about what others are saying, or have said, just following your own path, listen to your own inner guide. Because, that guidance is there, one just needs the ears to hear what its saying. As in having a quiet mind.
    Last edited by turiya, 18th November 2018 at 14:27.

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    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    I guess it could be convincingly argued that some are born to sadomasochism...i.e. "Kill Buddha" - Linji. Count me out, i'm more into, yeah, you're a conventional idiot but very lovable...

    Iconoclasm
    Linji is reputed for being iconoclastic, leading students to awakening by hitting and shouting.

    Three Mysterious Gates
    Chán faced the challenge of expressing its teachings of "suchness" without getting stuck into words or concepts. The alleged use of shouting and beating was instrumental in this non-conceptual expression - after the students were well-educated in the Buddhist tradition.

    Linji is described as using The Three Mysterious Gates to maintain the Chán emphasis on the nonconceptual nature of reality, while employing sutras and teachings to instruct his students:

    The First Gate is the "mystery in the essence", the use of Buddhist philosophy, such as Yogacara to explain the interpenetration of all phenomena.
    The Second Gate is the "mystery in the word", using the Hua Tou[a] for "the process of gradually disentangling the students from the conceptual workings of the mind".
    The Third Gate is the "mystery in the mystery", "involving completely nonconceptual expressions such as striking or shouting, which are intended to remove all of the defects implicit in conceptual understanding".

    - wiki - The One Source
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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    Quote Originally posted by turiya View Post
    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    "If you meet the Buddha on your path, kill him."

    (Zen quote)
    Exactly.

    I think that is in reference to whatever anybody else has said, or is saying. That would include that which has been written, as in scriptures, or in any other so-called 'holy book'. Forget about what others are saying, or have said, just following your own path, listen to your own inner guide. Because, that guidance is there, one just needs the ears to hear what its saying. As in having a quiet mind.
    Absolutely. This is why it is so important to put in the effort to know oneself. Sadly enough — and I don't know whether this is indigenous to the human soul, whether it's a consequence of the society we live in, or whether it could perhaps be a combination of both — most people never take the time to get to know themselves. Instead, they are usually critical and demanding of everyone around them, while at the same time constantly running away from themselves, as well as from their responsibilities.

    People's consciousness appears to have fallen back into a hypnotic alpha state, similar to when one is watching a soap opera on television. I observe a worrisome mental disconnect among people between themselves and the reality that they're part of. They consume their environment, without realizing that they are just as much part of it as everyone else, and that their own actions have consequences too, just like everyone else's. Everything is always someone else's fault — even though they're usually quick to claim (and boast) their own achievements.

    Going out on a limb now, it's almost as if people's higher self — for whatever part of one's being fits that description — is thinking "Oh well, never mind. I'll get it right in a next life. There's plenty more of them to come anyway." They just don't seem to be taking anything seriously — not life, nor other people, and not even themselves.

    Not to turn this thread into a discussion of my own soul origins — I've already elaborated on that subject on other threads — but to myself (and others like me), the above-described disrespect for one's own presence in Creation is both incomprehensible and shocking.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Quote Originally posted by turiya View Post
    Seems to me that this man never wanted people to be following him, as in 'followers'. But, to follow that guru that is found within each & every one of us.
    I don't know man, the evidence most certainly doesn't point in that direction. Yes, that's him driving in both pictures folks.

    Name:  Osho.jpg
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    Name:  Osho 2.jpg
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    They weren't all squirreled away in some garage either...

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    But look beyond the obvious discrepancies between word and deed: Where was this occurring?

    Hint: Look up Rajneeshpuram, Oregon. I'll list just one sample link, but they all tell pretty much the same story. That place is reminiscent of Jonestown without the Kool-Aid ending. Then again, had Rajneesh’s (later known as Osho) not wound up being deported, who knows how it may have ended.
    https://www.carmrades-blog.com/all-a...lls-royce-guru
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Absolutely. This is why it is so important to put in the effort to know oneself. Sadly enough — and I don't know whether this is indigenous to the human soul, whether it's a consequence of the society we live in, or whether it could perhaps be a combination of both — most people never take the time to get to know themselves. Instead, they are usually critical and demanding of everyone around them, while at the same time constantly running away from themselves, as well as from their responsibilities.

    People's consciousness appears to have fallen back into a hypnotic alpha state, similar to when one is watching a soap opera on television. I observe a worrisome mental disconnect among people between themselves and the reality that they're part of. They consume their environment, without realizing that they are just as much part of it as everyone else, and that their own actions have consequences too, just like everyone else's. Everything is always someone else's fault — even though they're usually quick to claim (and boast) their own achievements.

    Going out on a limb now, it's almost as if people's higher self — for whatever part of one's being fits that description — is thinking "Oh well, never mind. I'll get it right in a next life. There's plenty more of them to come anyway." They just don't seem to be taking anything seriously — not life, nor other people, and not even themselves.

    Not to turn this thread into a discussion of my own soul origins — I've already elaborated on that subject on other threads — but to myself (and others like me), the above-described disrespect for one's own presence in Creation is both incomprehensible and shocking.
    Actually, with all the misery that can be seen going on in this world, it does provide the perfect backdrop for one to turn one's attention away from what is taking place in the outside world, and turn one's attention & focus on what is taking place within oneself.

    Why this not taking place on a worldwide scale? Well, go figure on that one.... Perhaps, I need to be a bit more patient with the rest of the world.

    Or, this could very well mean that things will get a lot worse before they actually get better... before that 100th monkey effect will turn the tide on this planet.

    And then, this could also translate into enough people wanting to become more personally responsible (a.k.a. growing up & becoming more mature) to the point of it becoming a force that would entice a majority into wanting to conform with. To the point of it becoming (don't really like to think about in this context) more 'fashionable' to be more responsible.

    A similar thing can be said regarding how 'fashionable' running has become as an exercise that people do in order to keep healthy. When I first started jogging as a form of exercise, there were very, very few people that would actually don on their gym shoes & shorts and go hit the streets running. These days, its quite amazing how the whole notion of 'running' has exploded. I see alot of people that run in the rain, that run in the snow, even.

    And so, I do have my optimism up on the possibility that this notion of being more responsible on a collective worldwide scale will also become just as explosive. I still am quite the optimist for all this to actually become a reality in my lifetime, not that I have that much time left.
    Last edited by turiya, 18th November 2018 at 15:42.

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    I think it is important to point out that old-style Gurus (before the influence of Christianity, Islam and Buddhism) were very much like Osho. They were often immensely wealthy and influential. Kings would prostate themselves before them and a brief teaching would often result in a very valuable gift from a King or Prince. These generally included cows (the Rolls Royces of Vedic times), gold, land and even villages with peasants in them to work the land for the Guru's benefit.

    I personally have no doubt that Osho had immense power and realised some profound truths. His books and talks remain very valuable. However, he was a Tantric master and as such went against all the received wisdom of mainstream thought, pretty much deliberately. He preached that wealth was a prerequisite to following a spiritual path, as someone with no money can never find the time and the peace and quiet required to devote himself to self-realisation. He taught that doing the exact opposite of what society expects you to is very valuable spiritually. Things like drunken orgies are very common amongst those that follow the tantric path.

    I'm not trying to protect his moral character, he was obviously highly flawed and was deported from the US for good reason, yet I still think that his actions were largely consistent with his own philosophy and teachings, as well as that of many tantric masters that went before him. The people that did follow him gained genuine spiritual insight and mostly because of his contrarian nature.

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    So OSHO is doing the regression karma thing...He started out elevated and is now living his astral karma in reverse...Works for me!

    I mean no disresepect to any human being but some humans fall beneath that threshold. Those that exploit, those that condemn, those that pretend to possess knowledge that others don't (by taking advantage of the clueless). One gets the picture.
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    I think it is important to point out that old-style Gurus (before the influence of Christianity, Islam and Buddhism) were very much like Osho. They were often immensely wealthy and influential. Kings would prostate themselves before them and a brief teaching would often result in a very valuable gift from a King or Prince. These generally included cows (the Rolls Royces of Vedic times), gold, land and even villages with peasants in them to work the land for the Guru's benefit.
    Well now Chris, that just reinforces what I have noticed over some time now, which is that nothing ever changes. Kings were no more in TRUE power then, than they are today; and, they tended to be every bit as foolish then, as they (and we as well) still do today.

    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    He preached that wealth was a prerequisite to following a spiritual path, as someone with no money can never find the time and the peace and quiet required to devote himself to self-realisation. He taught that doing the exact opposite of what society expects you to is very valuable spiritually. Things like drunken orgies are very common amongst those that follow the tantric path.
    What I've noticed is that he had a very slick way of camouflaging his Saudi Crown Prince type of life style in a false, either/or scenario: That the path to true spiritual attainment offers only either the path of being dirt poor, or the path of riches and extravagance. This blatantly and flippantly discards the third possibility of the "middle way" path.

    It's also a false, either/or tactic that the savvy, modern day politician will use today: "They hate me, so I must be doing something right!" Sound familiar?
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    "Sheela & her Gang"...




    Interviews with the World Press

    The following questions comes from a number of journalists assembled for a press conference with Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh at Rajneeshpuram, Oregon, September 22, 1985:

    - GEORGE PARAVANANI, FREELANCE GERMAN TV
    - RICHARD WAGNER, CBS NIGHTWATCH, NATIONAL TV AND
    - SCOTT MILLER, NBC, CHANNEL 8, PORTLAND, OREGON...

    Question: WITH REGARD TO SHEELA'S LEAVING, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO IN THE FUTURE?

    A:* I never think of the future. The present is enough for me. Sheela's going is an immense relief to the commune. It is a great freedom to my people. Naturally, freedom brings its own problems. Slavery is less complex; somebody else is always responsible, you are not. You are ordered to do something, you do it -- whether it is right or wrong, that is not your responsibility. Freedom means you are responsible for its being right, if it is not right then you will be responsible, you cannot throw the responsibility on somebody else.

    So freedom is always a risk. That's why most of the countries have chosen dictatorship of some kind of other. Even if they call themselves democracies it is only in the name; the basic structure is dictatorial for the simple reason because they are afraid that the people cannot take the great responsibility of freedom.

    But this will settle. There is no problem in it. These people are all intelligent people. They're all graduates, most of them have master's degrees, few are Ph.D.s, few are D.Litts, many are psychologists, many are doctors, all are well-qualified. Professionally they have been successful in life; just out of love for me they have dropped their success, their professions, and have come into this desert to create a utopia, an oasis.

    Sheela was a hindrance. She was creating what every power-lusty person creates: hostility amongst the neighbors. Adolf Hitler writes in his autobiography that unless you create hostility amongst your neighbor nations, you can never become strong; keep always people afraid that the enemy is going soon, soon you will be (inaudible) destroyed. That fear will keep them strong and ready to order and surrender and trust and believe anything the leader says.

    I was silent for three-and-a-half years and in isolation. That gave her an opportunity. These people love me. They have nothing to do with Sheela. Sheela means nothing to them. She was just a waitress in a hotel, but I saw in her few very important things: she was very practical, very pragmatic, very clever -- and that was needed to create this commune. It was absolutely essential in the beginning. And she has contributed wholeheartedly. But only in the beginning she was useful. As the commune started growing, taking roots, she became dangerous -- and this is one very important thing to understand, that a person may be useful to a certain limit, and beyond that he can become harmful, he can be dangerous. She was useful up to a limit. She made the commune a strong. She made the commune self-sufficient. She made the commune feel protected, unafraid. But then, by and by, she started the human unconscious urge, lust for power.

    She was doing everything in my name. These people were doing everything because of me. I was not available. She was representing me. So whatsoever she wanted to do, just she has to say that, "Bhagwan wants it." And my people did it.

    And whatever she wanted to report to me, she reported; whatever she never wanted to report to me, she never reported. And she was the only communication.

    When things became too much, she became afraid of three other persons who were also capable of approaching me -- my physician, my dentist, my caretaker.

    She became afraid that these people may start informing me that, "Sheela is doing something not according to Your wish, that the meditation commune is turning into a concentration camp."

    At that point she started to think how to kill these three people. She poisoned two of them, and when she poisoned them then it became clear for me that now I have to come out of my isolation and start speaking again.

    And the moment I started speaking again, she started wandering into other communes in Europe, in Australia, in Japan, in Singapore, and she was rarely here. She did not want to face me. Even when she will come here, she will pretend she is sick and she is afraid she will infect me, so she will not come.

    Even the last time she came, she pretended that she has cold, so she will wait three, four days, and when her cold is gone she will come to see me. But she wrote a note to me, that, "Now I don't feel excited coming here. I feel more excitement in Europe, more excitement in Australia, but I don't feel any excitement here." The person who has brought the message, her secretary, I told her, that, "Give her my message that, `Watch and find out the reason.

    The reason is simply that because now I'm speaking myself, your function as a representative is finished. Your face from the television will disappear. Your voice from the radio will not be heard. And in these three and a-half years you have got a very swollen head. That's why you don't feel excited here. And if you want, for an experiment, I can come to Europe and you will not feel excited there, too. I can come to Australia or anywhere. Because there you are receiving respect because you represent me. If I come myself to Germany, then who is going to bother about you?"'

    That she understood clearly, and rather than staying three days and to face me, she escaped the next day and took away twenty of her intimate colleagues who were conspirators against the commune in many crimes.

    And as she left, people started opening their mouth; they were afraid.

    Q:* ACCORDING TO THE REPORTS IN THE RAJNEESH TIMES AND IN THE PAPERS, SHE WAS SENT OFF AT THE AIRPORT WITH A SONG. OBVIOUSLY THEY KNEW THAT SHE WAS LEAVING. WHY DIDN'T YOU STOP HER? YOU OBVIOUSLY HAD THE AUTHORITY TO STOP HER.


    A:* I had no idea that she's leaving. She left at a time when I always go for a ride. She left at four o'clock. In a plane.

    Q:* IN YOUR PLANE?
    A:* Yes, in my plane. And the people had no idea that she has resigned.

    Q:* WELL, THEY WERE HELPING PACKING UP HER CLOTHES AND....

    A:* Yes, because they had no idea. She had not informed anybody that she was leaving, that she was leaving forever.

    Q:* WELL, SHE SAID, "BHAGWAN IS ONLY INTERESTED NOW IN JEWELRY AND NOT IN THE THING; I'M LEAVING."


    A:* That she said only to those twenty people who were leaving with her. But the commune was absolutely unaware that she is leaving forever. And then, too, only forty people were there out of five thousand people.

    Q:* SOME OF THESE FORTY PEOPLE ARE STILL HERE, WHO SANG AND CRIED AND SAID GOODBYE.


    A:* Yes; there is no problem in it. It is understandable. She has been working here for three and a half years with all these people, and she had done immense work. She may have committed many crimes, but she has done much good too. It is not that everything she did was wrong, and the people who had worked with her, many may have started respecting her, loving her, but out of five thousand people, only forty people were there. So that means only twenty people were there to give her a send-off. Twenty were going with her.

    Q:* WHEN DID YOU KNOW THAT SHE HAD LEFT?

    A:* I knew when I came back from my ride. Every day I go at two o'clock for a ride in the forest, in the mountains. When I came back then I came to know that she has left, and I was informed that she has left forever. And it was informed by her second, and she wanted that her second should be made the president of the commune. I said, "I will have to think over it. Because if she could deceive, and she could commit all these crimes, to put her second person -- you have been with her for three and a half years, you never informed me about anything going wrong. I will have to think about it."

    Next day, morning, she left.

    Q:* WHEN DID YOU DISCOVER THAT TAPE RECORDERS, THE HIDDEN PASSAGE? HOW DID ALL THAT HAPPEN? IT'S ALMOST LIKE A SUSPENSE CRIME STORY, A SHERLOCK HOLMES THING.

    A:* It is a crime story, but there is no suspense in it. It is very simple. While she was in power, she has put on every power post -- we have many corporations, it is a big phenomenon. We have put two hundred million dollars in the commune to develop it. We have seven or nine corporations. So she has put presidents, secretaries, on each corporation of his own. In three and a half years, slowly slowly she managed all those people who were of independent mind, who were more intelligent than her, who were more capable than her, to harass them in some way or other, so that they had to leave.

    The vice-chancellor of the university left, the chancellor of the university left. The woman who had collected thirty-three million dollars -- the initial money that started the commune, she had to leave, she forced her to leave because she took all power from her hands. It was so insulting that she has to leave.

    Slowly, slowly she has dropped all the people who could be suspected to go against her. So naturally, the people who had left were simple, innocent people who had come here just to live with me in peace and not to get into any power politics.

    So when she left, and all the gang of twenty people -- who were all criminals. I will tell you what crimes they had committed. When they all left, people started coming on their own.

    Q:* THESE THREE PEOPLE WERE CLOSE TO YOU: YOUR DOCTOR, YOUR DENTIST, AND YOUR CARETAKER, HAVE BEEN WITH YOU SINCE INDIA. AND IF YOU HAD EDUCATED THEM AND BROUGHT THEM UP TO A SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY, THEN THEY SHOULD HAVE OVERCOME THIS FEAR AND INFORMED YOU OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING HERE. AND INDIRECTLY, ARE YOU WILLING TO TAKE PART RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE PHENOMENON SHEELA AND WHAT HAPPENED?


    A:* No responsibility. And the reason why my people could not inform me was that they were also as much uninformed as I myself. Sheela cut my whole house and the people who lived in the house from the commune. Even the guards on my house were not allowed to talk to the people of the house.

    Q:* YOUR DENTIST, OR YOUR NURSE? SHE SAW YOU DAILY.

    A:* Yes. They are living with me in the same house. And Sheela managed that she -- she was clever. She managed that, "Your doctor should not be part of the medical center."

    Q:* BUT HE FELT THAT HE WAS POISONED.
    A:* That's when I started speaking, when he was poisoned. He was poisoned in a meeting. First he was poisoned at Sheela's house.

    Q:* HOW MANY MONTHS AGO? HOW MANY WEEKS AGO?

    A:* Just few weeks ago.

    Q:* SO THEN WHY DIDN'T HE TELL YOU IMMEDIATELY?

    A:* It was impossible even for him. He felt something strange. He has taken just a cup of coffee. And you don't immediately suspect that somebody will poison you. And in a commune where you are completely devoted to the welfare of all, he could not even imagine that he will be poisoned.

    My caretaker was also poisoned the same way, a cup of tea. Even she could not think....

    (tape side B)
    Q:* EVEN YOU GOT AN INJECTION OR A NEEDLE, IS THAT RIGHT?
    A:* No; my physician got that. But my milk was poisoned, and they were poisoning it so slowly, with such minute doses, that it effects will come in years so that my death seems to be natural.

    Q:* I WOULD LIKE TO QUOTE ONE OF....

    A:* Just first, because your question is not answered and it will remain your mind. These people could not inform me for the simple reason she stopped the dentist to go to the dentistry because he works on my teeth so it is better that he should do editing in the house and just take care of my teeth.

    Q:* SO HE'S WITH YOU ALL THE TIME?
    A:* He's with me all the time.

    Q:* THEN HE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO TELL YOU, "LISTEN, MASTER"....
    A:* No, no; but he never goes anywhere. They are cut off. You don't understand the thing. He's not going to the dentistry.... And people -- Sheela's people -- have tried in every way that these people get no information of any kind.

    Q:* SO THESE THREE PEOPLE WERE AS UNAWARE AND AS CUT OFF FROM THE REST OF THE COMMUNITY?

    A:* Yes. Completely cutoff.

    Q:* SO THEY'D NEVER BEEN TO THE CANTEEN AND SPOKE TO THE PEOPLE?
    A:* They were eating there, but everybody in the canteen was not aware what was happening, it was only a small group of these twenty people who really knew what was happening.

    For example, taping. Only two electricians knew about it. Now, even they bugged my sitting room -- in front of me.

    Q:* ARE YOU SCARED?

    A:* No, there is no question because I have nothing to lose.

    Q:* ARE YOU SCARED THAT SHE MIGHT BLACKMAIL YOU?
    A:* I'm not afraid of anything, because there is nothing to blackmail me.

    Q:* BECAUSE SHE WAS A LITTLE CRAZED - THAT I KNEW LONG TIME AGO.
    A:* Nothing to be worried about that. But she was in a paranoia. The bugging was that perhaps somebody -- my caretaker or my dentist or my doctor -- says something, then she knows.

    Q:* BUT NOT TO HOLD THE POWER OVER YOU?
    A:* For me there is no question, because when I am alone I have not been speaking to the microphone.

    But the question is, even she bugged my room. I don't know about electricity, what wires are for bugging. Everybody in my house knew that she's putting some new wires, and she told me that this is an emergency buzzer. "If you press it, then the guards will immediately come into the house."

    So I said, "Okay, if you want. There is no emergency, but if you want to put it you can put it." And I have never touched it. The people saw it doing, but nobody is an electrician, nobody knows what they are doing. So, in the buzzer, inside, she placed a microphone.

    Even the people from the government, FBI people, when they saw all the bugging that they have done, they could not believe. They said, "These people have far more sophisticated ways of bugging than Nixon had done."

    Q:* YOU KNOW SHEELA OBVIOUSLY LONG TIME. THIS IS DEFINITELY NOT THE SHEELA YOU KNEW IN THE BEGINNING. SOMETHING HAPPENED TO HER.

    A:* No. It is the same Sheela. What happened was just whatever she was carrying in her unconscious -- she may not have been aware, when she got the opportunity.... She was just a waitress, and now she got millions of dollars in her hands.

    Her old secretary's letter yesterday has come that she had opened a private account in Switzerland in her own name. The money that was to come here slowly she was accumulating there, small parts of it; now it is forty-three million dollars.

    So when she got the opportunity... just human mind. It is nothing special. I feel it, anybody else in her place would have done the same, more or less.

    Q:* A QUESTION THAT MIGHT ANNOY YOU, BUT I HAVE TO PUT IT.
    A:* No, nothing annoys me, as you put it.

    Q:* AMONG THESE FIVE THOUSAND PEOPLE -- DOCTORS, LAWYERS, PSYCHOLOGISTS, ONE OF THEM SHOULD HAVE HAD THE GUTS TO SOMEHOW GET THE MESSAGE TO YOU. THERE'S SOMETHING FUNNY HAPPENING HERE.
    A:* No; but even they were not aware. You don't understand a thing.

    Q: FEAR...

    No, no, they were not aware. Not fear. Otherwise, they would have approached me. There were thousands of ways to approach me. They could have phoned to my caretaker, they could have phoned to my physician, if the guards were not allowing them in. They could have managed any way.

    The real thing is that what kinds of crimes she committed were such that in the community, except the people that were committing them, nobody was in any way capable to know.

    For example, they burned a county house, an office in Wasco County. Now, only one person knows it who burned it. That person is with them.

    Q:* THIS IS WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND.

    A:* Now, this is very simple. It is anybody who has a little understanding will not make it, that fifty persons know that -- fifty persons know that you are burning an office. One person knows. And if he behaves in any disgusting way, or goes against, he can be killed; and he knows that -- because these people are doing that. He's part of the gang.

    They killed one person. One of the street persons they killed, and simply threw the corpse out of the Rancho Rajneesh.

    Q:* WHEN I CAME HERE LAST TIME, IT WAS AS IF I WERE IN AN IMMINENT JONESTOWN, I COULD FEEL IT. WHY DIDN'T SOMEBODY HAVE THE COURAGE TO INDIRECTLY LET YOU KNOW THAT SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT HERE?

    A:* I don't agree. First, the fear that you felt here was a created paranoia by Sheela and her gang that the whole Oregon is to destroy you, that everybody is against you. If everybody is against you, naturally you have to have your security force, you have to have your own guns. And she was not absolutely wrong. This is how human psychology works. Wasco County people were purchasing guns suddenly. Even the Wasco County shopkeepers who sell guns reported the police that, "Such a great sale has never been there." Suddenly at the time of election, when these people were going to vote in the Wasco County, people are purchasing guns. I had finally -- even though I was in silence, Sheela brought the news to me, that what we have to do? I said, "Simply boycott the election. We are not politicians and we are not interested in American politics.

    Our work is here and our work is meditation. There is no need."

    But she created the fear in the people, and people could see it -- that they are moving on the county road with guns. Then naturally these people started getting ready, learning to shoot, becoming alert -- just the way it goes everywhere around the world. If Russians go on piling up nuclear weapons -- they are afraid of America, America goes on piling nuclear weapons afraid of Russia, and it seems there is no end to it.

    And that's what was happening. She created hostility through her statements. Those people created hostility through their statements. And it became a very tense situation.

    So if you had felt it, it was not that the commune was going to harm anybody; the commune was simply trying to defend itself. But whether you are trying to defend yourself, or harm anybody, there is an atmosphere which can -- any sensitive person can feel. But even I would not prevent it, seeing that if they are having guns. And if I stop my people having guns.... Then tomorrow, these people can be killed and I will be responsible.

    Q:* BUT YOU AND I KNOW VERY WELL THAT GUNS NEVER SOLVED ANY PROBLEMS.
    A:* They never solved any problem, but no guns have also never solved any problem. Just remember it, have no guns solved any problem?

    Q:* IT DEPENDS HOW ONE LOOKS AT IT.
    A:* No, never; not a single problem has been solved by guns, not a single problem has been solved by no guns. In fact, no problem has been solved.

    Q:* I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHO IS BHAGWAN RAJNEESH?
    A:* I am. (Inaudible) I am exactly what I am, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh.



    INTERVIEW WITH RICHARD WAGNER FROM CBS NIGHTWATCH:

    Q: DO YOU ENJOY THE ATTENTION OF ALL OF US, ALL WE REPORTERS WHO COME HERE OR WOULD YOU RATHER WE DIDN'T COME AND ASK YOU THINGS?

    A:* No, I love it.

    Q:* WHAT IS THE SITUATION HERE NOW? SHEELA AND THE GANG ARE GONE. WHAT IS THE MOOD? WHAT IS THE FEELING AT RAJNEESHPURAM NOW?

    A:* Of great rejoicing, as if they have come out of a concentration camp. They are feeling free, unburdened. And for the first time it seems that the commune is a place of absolute freedom, love and joy.

    Q:* WHICH IT IS MEANT TO BE, RIGHT?

    A:* Which it is meant to be; which Sheela and her gang had destroyed.

    Q:* BHAGWAN, HOW WERE THEY ABLE TO DO THAT? HOW COULD THEY DISTORT THE AIM OF THE COMMUNE?
    A:* Because I was silent. I came to America in silence, and I remained for three and a-half years silent, and I wanted no information from outside world -- no newspaper, no radio, no television. And I have told Sheela to bring only absolutely essential things to me. That gave her great opportunity on three grounds:

    One, she was a poor hotel waitress before, and suddenly she saw millions of dollars in her hands. Two hundred million dollars we have put in developing this oasis in the desert. It is just human. I don't condemn her that she started saving little bits in Switzerland, money that was coming from Europe, so she started accumulating her own account there. Her old secretary's letter yesterday informed me that she has accumulated forty-three million dollars.

    Q:* FORTY-THREE MILLION DOLLARS SHE HAS?

    A:* Yes.

    Q:* -- OF MONEY THAT BELONGS TO THE COMMUNE?
    A:* That belongs to the commune, that should have come here.

    Q:* WHAT CAN YOU DO?

    A:* We will see what we can do.

    Secondly, I was silent and the people who had come here have come out of love for me. They are ready to do anything for me, and she became my representative to them. She became my symbol. Otherwise, she was just as any other sannyasin.

    In India she was nobody special. Because, she was the only communication line between the commune and me - because I was in silence - I did not want to be disturbed.

    Q:* IF I MAY ASK, HOW DID YOU DISCOVER WHAT SHE WAS ABOUT AFTER THE TIME?
    A:* So this gave her immense power. In my name she could say anything to my people and they will follow, knowing that it is coming from me. Even if sometimes they will suspect that this cannot be from Bhagwan because it is against his teaching.

    I have never taught them to believe anything. Be reasonable, be rational, and doubt everything unless you come to an inevitable reality. I am not teaching them to be part of a faith. I am trying to give them a science of inner world, which begins in doubt and ends in the experience of truth, of their own reality.

    So sometimes they suspected, because Sheela was asking for surrender -- to trust everything, whatever comes comes from Bhagwan and you have to do it.

    So those people who had any suspicion, she simply threw them out of the commune. The chancellor of the university - she threw out, the vice-chancellor -- all intelligent people who could see that she is getting into a power trip. The best psychologists she threw out. The people who have been devotedly in love with me for fifteen years, she harassed them in such a way, misbehaved with them, that finally they decided to leave, it was such a humiliation.

    Q:* THESE PEOPLE COULDN'T COMMUNICATE WITH YOU AND TELL YOU WHAT WAS HAPPENING?

    A:* Because I was not available. That was the trouble. I was in isolation, I never came into the commune, I never met anybody. So that gave her an opportunity.

    And thirdly, because all those intelligent people left, she replaced her own people -- who were just puppets -- who will follow her whatsoever she said, even if she was committing crime they will be supporting her. Because their whole position was on her support, otherwise they had no reason to be there. So to keep their position they had to support her crime. So, it became a clique of twenty people, conspiring against the whole commune.

    They did every kind of crime. They killed one man in the share-home program, because they were giving all those people some drug to keep them drugged so that they can vote for them, or whatsoever they said they will do.

    Q:* THIS IS THEIR PACKING THE POLLS?
    A:* Yes. Keep them like robots. But this man they accidentally overdosed, and he died; and they threw him just -- so inhuman -- out of the Rancho Rajneesh. The corpse was found by the police, but they could not figure it out -- from where it came, who the man was, who killed him. And it remained a mystery and died out. Only just now, when people started
    revealing... when Sheela left and their fear disappeared that they will not be punished and they will not be thrown away, or perhaps they may not be even killed.... Because she killed that man and then she tried to kill three other people. That's what started the whole thing.

    Q:* THIS WAS YOUR DOCTOR, YOUR DENTIST....
    A:* My doctor, my dentist, and my caretaker. She was very much afraid of these three people, because they were the only ones, except her, who could approach me. So the only way was that those three should be simply finished.

    First she tried to poison one of my sannyasins who has served me for fifteen years as lovingly, as carefully, that I don't think any woman is capable of. From the morning til late in the night she is just running and doing everything for me to make everything convenient. They had asked her, that, "Why don't you come once in a while to visit Sheela?"

    So she went there, and just in a cup of tea they poisoned her. But she could not think of poison. It was so unnatural to think of it. She became sick, she vomited the whole night, for three days she has to rest; but still we did not think of poison -- for the simple reason because if I come at your home and you give me a cup of tea, there is no reason to believe that she will kill me. For what reason?

    But then the same thing happened with my physician. Because he is a physician, he became aware that there is poison in the coffee. So he immediately went to the medical center. Other doctors were also suspicious that there is possibility of a poison, but some kind of a poison which is undetectable.

    Q:* OH, THEY NEVER DISCOVERED WHAT KIND IT WAS?
    A:* No. There are poisons -- they discovered, there are poisons which cannot be detected. They can be given to you, but from blood or from any source you cannot detect them.

    Q:* AND THAT'S WHAT THEY WERE USING?
    A:* They have been using the book. When Sheela left, in her room a whole literature on poisons, whole literature on how to murder people so that you cannot be caught, in what doses you have to give the poison, and particularly that poison which were -- medical people were suspecting, that page was underlined. So it seems they have been using that poison, no way to detect it.

    Q:* IF THEY WERE USING IT AND THEY UNDERSTOOD HOW TO USE IT, WHY DIDN'T THEY USE ENOUGH TO KILL? WHY JUST USE ENOUGH TO MAKE SOMEONE SICK?
    A:* Yes. The reason was that if suddenly you kill somebody who was not sick, then there will be suspicion. You have to give the poison slowly so he becomes weaker. And slowly, within three, four months he dies almost like a natural death. That was the reason. And that is given in the book, that how long you want the person to die that much dose you should give.

    Q:* IS THIS BEING INVESTIGATED NOW BY THE AUTHORITIES?
    A:* Yes; FBI and State Police and other agencies -- county police. They are all having an office here and people are going and revealing everything that they know.

    Q:* YOU'RE COOPERATING WITH THAT?
    A:* Absolutely. I am absolutely against crime, and I am all for law. Third time they again injected my doctor, and that was in a meeting. I started speaking after the second poisoning. It was still not certain, but suspicion was enough; and when I asked her, I could see on her face a little hesitation. And I told her that, "From tomorrow I am going to speak, and I am going to meet my people. Now you need not be my representative. I will represent myself." In the meeting, while I was speaking and ten thousand sannyasins were listening, they injected, just in the crowd, my doctor. In the crowd. But its such an injection that it can be done from over the robe. He felt it immediately, he pulled his robe, he showed people, he knew who has done it, and people saw blood and the mark of the injection. And one person has come as a witness, that, "Whatever the doctor says, that is the person who has done it, I have seen her doing with my own eyes." And that girl also has disappeared with Sheela's group.

    After that, I made it clear to people that this group must have done more crimes. And if anybody has any information, then now it is your responsibility to expose them.

    Q:* ARE PEOPLE COMING FORWARD NOW?
    A:* People coming forward, so many stories that it seems just unbelievable. They have bugged even my room. And they have bugged the whole hotel. They have bugged every house they suspected that there are people who
    may be one day not be with them.

    Q:* BHAGWAN, WAS THE REASON FOR THIS TO STEAL MONEY? IS THAT AT THE BASE OF IT? DID THEY WANT TO TAKE THE MONEY AND RUN?
    A:* No, not only that because money was already there and nobody knows, and nobody knew. This letter has come yesterday...

    (Interruption for tape change)

    The money they had already got there in their own name, and here they were doing all these crimes to keep the whole commune under their control. And because I started speaking, two things happened.

    One, Sheela lost her big ego that she has accumulated in three and a half years, she lost her face on the television screen, her voice on the radios, her picture in the magazines, because when I'm speaking myself who is going to take interest in her interviews? She was representing me.

    So since I started speaking, she went on touring Europe, Australia, Singapore, where my other communes are. There she was received with the same grandeur that she had become accustomed of -- television people coming, all media lined up, interviews. She has become a celebrity, and that is a very poisoning thing.

    Q:* HAVE YOU SPOKEN WITH HER SINCE SHE LEFT BY TELEPHONE?
    A:* No, I never have used telephone in my whole life.

    Q:* WOULD YOU SPEAK WITH HER IN ANY WAY IF YOU COULD?
    A:* No. If she comes only in front of me.

    Q:* WOULD YOU SPEAK TO HER IF SHE CAME AND ASKED TO BE FORGIVEN?
    A:* There is every possibility. Future is always unpredictable.

    Last time she came here, she wrote a letter to me, that, "I don't feel excitement coming here" because the whole commune does not go to receive her on the airport. There are no photographers. Nobody is taking any note when she comes and when she goes. To become special and then to become again ordinary is difficult. I have every compassion for that. And if she had asked me, I would have arranged everything. I could have told my people, that "There is no problem, you can go. Have photographs, gather around her airplane, put as many garlands as she wants, why unnecessary make her unhappy.

    But she never told me. She simply told, that "I feel no excitement coming here. But in Europe I feel very happy, in Australia I feel very happy."

    The person who has brought the note, the second person who was always bringing notes when Sheela was absent, I told her, that "Tell her it is nothing but ego, and if she wants to see it, I can come to Europe and stay just three months there, and all her happiness will disappear. Or, if she wants, Australia. It is perfectly good. I can come to Australia and prove her what is really the reason.

    The reason is, that `You are no more now getting nourishment for your ego.'

    Q:* BHAGWAN, DID, DID SHE AND HER GANG STEAL SO MUCH MONEY FROM THE COMMUNE THAT THE COMMUNE COULD BE IN FINANCIAL DIFFICULTY?
    A:* No, the commune can never be in financial difficulty. We have one million sannyasins around the world. And my sannyasins are all rich, all intelligent, all professional people. There is no problem: just a word from me and we can have one hundred millions immediately available. That's not a problem.

    So she was just foolish; that does not make any difference to us. But she will be caught, and she will be soon in trouble. And I am certain because... she has... the second person to her has said to me the last day, that "We have certainly an account, and the rumor is not wrong, but we were keeping the account for your safety, if in any case you have to leave America, then we should keep some money there."

    But I said, "If it was for my sake, at least I should be made aware of it. And how much money is there? I should be made aware of it. What is the number of your bank account? What bank it is? I don't know anything; you have never told me."

    She said, "Tomorrow I will be bringing every detail." And, tomorrow she
    disappeared too.

    Q:* BHAGWAN, WHAT IS YOUR, YOUR STATUS VIS-A-VIS STAYING IN THE UNITED STATES? ARE YOU HERE LEGALLY? CAN YOU STAY WITH NO PROBLEM, OR DO YOU HAVE A DIFFICULTY WITH IMMIGRATION AND NATURALIZATION?
    A:* No, there is no difficulty. They are having difficulties. I have been here for four years, and I will be here. And in four years they have been not able to find anything that they can say no to me. I want them to decide, this way or that. If they say yes, okay; if they say no, then I move to the courts.

    They have six grounds. I have applied on five grounds, and I will fight on each ground separately. One ground will take twenty years to reach to the Supreme Court. Five grounds will take hundred years, so what problem? All so many judges will die, so many INS people will die, I myself will have died.

    Perhaps they will give the green card to my grave. That will be their tribute.

    Q:* ASSUMING THAT YOU WILL BE HERE AS LONG AS YOU PLEASE, HOW ARE YOU GETTING ALONG NOW WITH YOUR NEIGHBORS IN THIS PART OF OREGON? ARE YOU FRIENDS WITH THEM?
    A:* From our side there is no hostility towards anybody. Sheela and her company has created hostility. That is a necessary part of any fascist mind, to create hostility with the neighbors. That creates fear, paranoia; then your own commune becomes more in your hands, more surrendered. And they know that they cannot stand alone; they can only stand with the commune. So even against their will they have to follow your orders. So more hostility you create, more your small minority becomes stronger. So that's what she was doing, but now they are gone. I don't have any hostility towards anybody. In fact in America, except red Indians, everybody is a foreigner. So what is the problem? In fact we are legally here, and you are illegally here.

    Q:* WHAT ABOUT...?

    A:* The Americans, the forefathers, have invaded this country. We have not invaded the country; we have purchased the land, and purchased also in a right way. We have paid seven million dollars for this land. Your forefathers paid thirty dollars for the whole area of New York. So this land is three times than New York; that means ninety dollars at the most. And remember that you may have come one hundred years before, somebody may have come two hundred years before, somebody three hundred years before -- no visa, no green card. And we are asking you on every legal ground. And foreigners are trying to prevent other foreigners -- strange, and illegal foreigners are preventing legal foreigners.

    Q:* WHAT ABOUT SHEELA AND HER GROUP BRINGING THE HOMELESS PEOPLE FROM AROUND THE COUNTRY HERE AT ELECTION TIME? WAS THAT ONE OF HER PLOTS?
    A:* Yes, it was a plot. They wanted to take over the county, but that, too, only just now people have started telling me. I was silent. I had no idea. Sheela has simply informed me only one thing: that they have surplus money out of the annual festival, so they want to do some humanitarian job, that's why she is bringing these people. I said, "If it is a humanitarian job, perfectly good, do it."

    Now, as I have started speaking, people have revealed to me that it was not humanitarian, it was just the opposite, very inhuman. Those people were drugged completely every day. Gallons of drugs were imported from outside, so they cannot be detected here -- that you have purchased in America.

    They killed one man. And then finally they wasted three million dollars on it and created so much hostility and a negative kind of publicity.

    They were going again to do something like that. If I was not speaking, they would have done that too. They had made in City of Rajneesh one housing complex for five hundred people, a beautiful housing complex with separate bathrooms. And they wanted it to make an AIDS home just to create more trouble for Oregonians.

    Q:* HOW CAN YOU MAKE UP TO THE LOCAL PEOPLE? HOW CAN YOU GET THE CONFIDENCE OF THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE AROUND THE COMMUNE?
    A:* It will come by itself, because now there will be nobody who will be creating any hostility. It will take a little time to heal. But I stopped, immediately that it cannot be done. This is making dangerous spot for Oregon and also for your own people. Five-hundred AIDS patients will be dangerous for everybody, and we will be the closest to them, so this is simply idiotic. So I had to stop it. So now the whole housing complex is lying down there. Unnecessarily we have to keep it clean and keep it in order, and there is....

    But I had made the gesture. I had told the press that we are ready to vacate City of Rajneesh, change its name back to Antelope, because there is no need.

    Antelope was perfectly good. And we have got our own city, there is no need. And our people unnecessarily were being forced to live there. Every day they work here the whole day, in the night they have to go to Antelope just to show that hundred sannyasins are living there, an unnecessary trouble. And those people don't want to go; working after whole day they would like to meet their friends who are here, they would like to go to the disco, dance, sing, go to the restaurant, drink; but they had to be packed into buses and sent to Antelope. I don't want. So I had told to the press that we would like to take all of our people back, but then it is the responsibility of Antelope people that they should take their properties back....

    Q:* BUY THEM BACK?
    A:* If they want, yes, they should buy them back; and we are ready to give them at the same price. We have improved their property, we have made almost renovated houses, and prices have already gone high in four years, but we are ready to give them at the same price as they had sold us. The price is almost double now, so they are not going to be in any loss. We have made the city beautiful.

    But the ex-mayor's news I saw, she says, that "We are not going to purchase, because our city is already destroyed by these people."

    Strange people. If you don't want to purchase, then we are ready to purchase. You sell your houses and be finished, be clean. And they are in a minority, only twelve people are there. So only one-third property is now in the hands of Antelope people. If they want to sell it on reasonable market price, we will purchase it; but we will want them all to vacate. We don't want any trouble any more. Either they should purchase our properties, or we are ready to purchase their properties. But if they think that we should vacate and just let them have their properties free, they are wrong; this is stupid.

    Q:* THE PEOPLE HERE CLEARLY WISH YOU NO HARM. WHY IS IT NECESSARY TO MAINTAIN SUCH RIGID SECURITY IN THIS COMMUNE?
    A:* I was thinking that as Sheela has gone and the hostility between Oregonians and this commune disappears, we will slowly withdraw security. But there was reason for it, even in Sheela's time. Before we had no security, just the police -- which is part of the Oregon, city police, but we had to create the security because Christian fanatics started coming and creating nuisance in the city.

    And then Hell's Angels started coming on their bikes. Now, that we cannot tolerate. And we don't want our people to be harassed by these fanatics. So unless government takes the guarantee that our people will not be harassed, the security will remain. If they take the guarantee, security will disappear tomorrow. There is no problem, because we don't want. In fact, one hundred people are unnecessary involved in security. They are creative people -- somebody is a doctor, somebody is a plastic surgeon and he is just carrying a gun. This is -- that gun is meant for retarded people, not for intelligent people who can do better things. We don't want it. And those guns look so ugly. We want the whole place to be full of roses, not full of guns.

    But, the problem is that if we remove those guns.... Just one day we experimented, yesterday. In the morning discourse, two security people stand by the podium where I speak. We removed them. It doesn't look right. I'm talking about love, and you have to keep two peoples having guns on both the sides. We removed them, and a mad man jumped on the podium. He would have harmed me.

    We know that there are people who belong to Sheela's gang. They are hostile. We know that there are people who have been posted by INS in the commune to give them all information.

    Now, with all this.... And we are giving all the information, everything, without keeping anything, to FBI. Still the FBI people said to one of our people that, "We would like at least 500 people from the commune to be locked in prison." Now, this is -- this means they are not interested really in Sheela, her gang, her crimes; they are more interested in destroying the commune.

    Q:* WHY WOULD THEY WANT TO DESTROY THE COMMUNE?
    A:* Ask Attorney General. Why they should declare a legal city illegal? For two years it was legal; it was incorporated by the state government, by the Wasco County, it was accepted by the federal government. We were receiving support from federal government, state government, county, from everybody. And then suddenly the city became illegal.

    Q:* THE SUPREME COURT OF OREGON SAID THAT THE LAND USE WAS NOT PROPER, IS THAT CORRECT?
    A:* Yes, they have said it; but Attorney General has found another way. Now, he says that state and religion is mixed, so on that ground the city is illegal. We have won that case, that on land use laws city cannot be declared illegal. So they have now found another way.

    And you can see the intention of the person. We said, "That's perfectly okay. We are ready to fight, but the case should be decided in a federal court." Because, if the case is state versus city, it cannot be decided by any state court.

    Q:* SO YOU'LL APPEAL ON TO THE HIGHEST COURTS -- THE FEDERAL COURTS?
    A:* That's what we are trying, but they are insisting that the case should be decided by a state court, which is absolutely illogical. Those state courts are under state pressure, they are part of the state; naturally we cannot win in those courts. And why they should be afraid of federal court or Supreme Court? If we are not afraid, why they should be afraid? We know perfectly well we are legal, the city is legal; we have not committed any illegality in its incorporation. There is no question of mixing any religion with the state.

    I don't see -- because we don't believe in God, we don't have any heaven and hell, we don't have any prayer, we don't have any catechism. The city's work is making the roads, taking care of the public park, the public dam; I don't know how we can mix religion with the roads.

    Q:* BHAGWAN, WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THE COMMUNE? WHAT IS THE GOAL OF THE COMMUNE?
    A:* The goal of the commune is that people should realize their reality, their self, their center. They should become fully conscious. There should not be a corner in their being which is dark. That is the goal, eternal goal of all humanity, to achieve self-realization; and that is our goal.

    Now, how can we mix that goal with the municipality of the city? I don't
    understand. I don't see that there is any way to mix.

    They are mixing everywhere. In every court you are keeping Bible for taking oath; this is mixing religion with justice. Why Bible is being kept there? And knowing perfectly well that there is no other book so pornographic as your Holy Bible. Now, I cannot take oath on Bible; I would rather prefer a magazine of PLAYBOY, which is at least colorful and glossy.

    They are -- there are few people, a group of atheists, who are publishing all the passages from the Bible which are pornographic, and what they have come to is five hundred pages collection. And they say this five hundred pages collection is the most pornographic; no other scripture is comparable to it. But why you are keeping it in the court? The court can keep the Constitution of America; that, one understands, and that has some value, that has some democratic respect for freedom, respect for expression. And that is made by far more intelligent people than Old Testament. I can accept the Constitution, but I cannot accept the Bible -- when you have such a beautiful Constitution. The best in the whole world.


    SOURCE: The Last Testament (pdf), Chapter 2 (Pages 12-33)
    Last edited by turiya, 18th November 2018 at 23:17.

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    "If you meet the Buddha on your path, kill him."

    (Zen quote)
    But take at least one Rolls. They're good for the back.
    Well, the thing with Rolls Royces is that they're usually meant to be driven by someone else, with the owner sitting in the backseat and drinking champagne. And that has never been my style. I prefer sitting behind the wheel myself.

    Besides, if it's all the same with you, then I'd rather have a McLaren than a Rolls. Christmas will be coming up soon <hint hint>.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

  28. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Aragorn For This Useful Post:

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  29. #90
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    I wouldn't trade my Toyota 4Runner for anything... Except, perhaps, another one.
    It has great seats - fits me perfectly.

  30. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to turiya For This Useful Post:

    Aragorn (20th November 2018), Dreamtimer (20th November 2018), Elen (20th November 2018), Melidae (22nd November 2018)

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