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  1. #571
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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    you didn't watch it did you, Chris? It doesn't matter, one of the things I always find difficult to accept is when 'only' 65% of the population agrees about injustice. You know what though, that means 65% do agree and that is inspiring. One body more than 50% means that people are making spiritual, moral, psychological, and cognitive breakthroughs.
    I did watch it. Can't imagine a better recruitment video for the KKK.

    This kind of thinking is seriously wrong and is just flaming the already serious racial animosity that was bubbling below the surface.

    There is no excuse for criminal and thuggish behaviour, not even if it is underpinned by shouting communist slogans at the top of your lung.

    As far as I'm concerned, all communists are scum.

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  3. #572
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    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    I disagree, Chris. I think society needs a certain amount of anarchy. Too much authoritarianism isn't good and there's plenty of it now.

    Once again I want to make it clear that I don't support violence, but I totally understand why it happens. Revolutions are needed.
    Yes, you are right, it is a revolution.

    When the revolutionary committee is rounding up people for execution in your neck of the woods, I hope you'll remember what you said here.

    It is easy to be a revolutionary thousands of miles away.

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  5. #573
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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    As far as I'm concerned, all communists are scum.
    Would you say that John Lennon was a scum?
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  7. #574
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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Would you say that John Lennon was a scum?
    I don't know, if he was an actual communist, but if he was then yes. He lived during a time when the crimes of communism have already been exposed and readily apparent to everyone.

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  9. #575
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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Would you say that John Lennon was a scum?
    I don't know, if he was an actual communist, but if he was then yes. He lived during a time when the crimes of communism have already been exposed and readily apparent to everyone.
    You are making the mistake of conflating the ideology with the way it was implemented (or used as an excuse for authoritarianism) by fallible humans. All socialist and proto-communist regimes have committed severe crimes, because all of those regimes were started and led by fallible and morally corrupted people who, in their own interpretation of what they were doing, were actually doing the exact opposite of what communism was supposed to be all about in the first place.

    Don't get me wrong, I personally feel that outright communism as an ideology goes just a little bit too far for my taste, because it's not organic and not flexible enough to adhere to common sense. It's too bureaucratic, and life itself ─ whether biological or social ─ does not abide by the rigid rules of bureaucracy. But capitalism is even worse than that, and it was/is the capitalist mindset of communist/socialist revolutionaries like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Mugabe, Ernesto "Che" Guevara, Laurent Desiré Kabila and the Kim dynasty of North Korea, that caused them to become ethically corrupt.

    One of the major hurdles socialism has always had to overcome is that there isn't a single nation on this planet that's economically and logistically self-sufficient. All nations have to engage in trade with other nations. And considering that the global economical landscape (and thus international trade) is decisively capitalist/corporatist ─ and primarily driven by the USA, itself a corporatist-fascist economical and military superpower ─ it follows that each and every proto-communist or socialist nation could and can only ever exist as an enclave within this capitalist/corporatist global landscape.

    As such, and given that socialism does demand integrity, deliberation, fairness and commitment, the purveyors of socialist or proto-communist regimes have themselves always been tempted by the illusory benefits of capitalism. As long as there will be the temptation of personal enrichment ─ as promised by capitalism ─ there will be moral corruption among the ruling castes in socialist/proto-communist regimes. The very existence of such castes ─ including the political leadership itself ─ is in and of itself anathema to socialism. But that, alas, is where the Dunning-Kruger effect kicks in.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  11. #576
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    Aragorn, I am not going to belabour the point any more, because it is obvious to me that I am not going to change minds here. All I can offer is my own perspective. Trying to convince me that Communism isn't inherently evil is like trying to convince a Jew that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with National Socialism, that a few tweaks cannot fix. "They did it wrong" is the common excuse that people come up with in relation to this and I refuse to be a participant or even a bystander in yet another experiment to do Socalism/Communism right.

    I'm not talking about social democracy here, which I actually support, but criminal behaviour, with no regard to laws and rules, just running around and stealing from people who are smarter and more successful than you. That anyone would countenance theft and mayhem, even wanton destruction of property on this scale is beyond belief. These people are criminals and they must be locked up.

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  13. #577
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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    Aragorn, I am not going to belabour the point any more, because it is obvious to me that I am not going to change minds here. All I can offer is my own perspective. Trying to convince me that Communism isn't inherently evil is like trying to convince a Jew that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with National Socialism, that a few tweaks cannot fix. "They did it wrong" is the common excuse that people come up with in relation to this and I refuse to be a participant or even a bystander in yet another experiment to do Socalism/Communism right.
    No, that's where you are wrong. You are conflating socialism and communism ─ which are egalitarian ideologies intended to empower the people ─ with how socialist/communist revolutions have always worked out. And from where I'm sitting, egalitarianism is peaceful and just.

    National-socialism on the other hand was a form of fascism ─ and thus: the opposite of socialism ─ that focused on ethnic purification. There is no possible justification for national-socialism ─ ever.

    Your reaction is ─ and I'm sorry to have to be so blunt ─ just a knee-jerk, based upon the traumatic experiences you've had in your own country when it was still governed by the Soviet regime.

    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    I'm not talking about social democracy here, which I actually support, but criminal behaviour, with no regard to laws and rules, just running around and stealing from people who are smarter and more successful than you. That anyone would countenance theft and mayhem, even wanton destruction of property on this scale is beyond belief. These people are criminals and they must be locked up.
    Socialism and communism are not about theft, destruction or any other criminal activity, although communism proper does condemn private possession ─ and that's where it goes too far for me, and why I cannot support it. The basis for both communism and socialism however is that all natural resources and the means for production are the property of everyone and no one. And that's all there is to it.

    Also, social-democracy is not socialism. It is nothing other than a loosely regulated form of capitalism, so as to avoid the formation of monopolies. And it's just as rife with both ethical and financial corruption as fascism proper, and as the self-proclaimed communist regimes are.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  15. #578
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    Chris, obviously, you and yours have lived it, so I wouldn't try to 'convince' you to think otherwise, what you experienced was very real, but as in all ideologies there are always those that will twist anything within their scope of influence to their liking and the people that do that are not good people, they are authoritarians.

    Black society can burn buildings but they can't burn books...the power is just not there...they seek balance just as the video eloquently and vehemently demonstrated. The ability to twist ANY authoritarian ideal is losing ground...right now, and God bless God for allowing it to be so.
    “Chance is perhaps God's pseudonym when He does not want to sign” Anatole France, Le Jardin d'Epicure

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  17. #579
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    Anyways, I am going to stay away from this topic from now as it causes too much acrimony. Let's just say that we are all products of our environment and upbringing to a certain degree and there is very little we can do about it.

    Black people in the US grow up with a victim mentality, as do most other minorities, thinking that they're being oppressed by The (white) Man and no amount of evidence to the contrary is going to change their minds.

    My strategy from hereon in is to let the US and the West in general implode, since there is nothing I can do about it anyways, whilst enjoying the peace and tranquility of my local environment. As long as these thugs, sorry, I meant revolutionaries stay away from my locale, I am beyond caring.

    Have fun with the revolution guys, just remember, all revolutions eventually consume their children.

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  19. #580
    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    ok, we'll let it go...for now...
    “Chance is perhaps God's pseudonym when He does not want to sign” Anatole France, Le Jardin d'Epicure

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  21. #581
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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    Anyways, I am going to stay away from this topic from now as it causes too much acrimony.
    Well now, that's a pity, because this has so far been one of the best threads on the forum in recent times. I've even moved it from Future Talk to the Highlighted Threads category only a few days ago.

    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    Let's just say that we are all products of our environment and upbringing to a certain degree and there is very little we can do about it.
    That is true, but that's why it is important that we put ourselves into a neutral perspective when talking of abstract concepts that by definition must transcend our personal biases.

    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    Black people in the US grow up with a victim mentality, as do most other minorities, thinking that they're being oppressed by The (white) Man and no amount of evidence to the contrary is going to change their minds.
    I do not entirely agree with that. The phenomenon of racism is very real in the USA, and the very success of Donald Trump ─ a known white-supremacist ─ only proves that it has never gone away. Again, Martin Luther King vied for the rights of African-Americans and paid for it with his life ─ on my fifth birthday, and I'm not that old. Don't forget that.

    On the other hand, there are indeed also opportunists who are abusing the situation for their own personal benefit and/or agenda. This is true. And then there are the ideological mercenaries, who will align themselves with whatever the cause of the day is, simply out of their addiction to drama and/or because they're looking for a brawl. And that in and of itself isn't even an American phenomenon, because you'll find people like that in every culture.

    And, to make it all even worse and further muddle the waters, not everything is as it seems when it comes to these riots. The alt-right has been spreading disinformation about alleged atrocities committed by Antifa that in reality never took place, as well as that they've been conducting some false flag operations of their own under the Antifa banner, so as to make Antifa look even worse than it already did.

    And to top it all off, even on the so-called left side of the equation, disinformation is now starting to spread. And then everything gets blown up to even greater proportions by the sheer impact of the phenomenon called "social media". Suddenly everyone and their dog is an expert, a witness or a victim.

    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    My strategy from hereon in is to let the US and the West in general implode, since there is nothing I can do about it anyways, whilst enjoying the peace and tranquility of my local environment. As long as these thugs, sorry, I meant revolutionaries stay away from my locale, I am beyond caring.

    Have fun with the revolution guys, just remember, all revolutions eventually consume their children.
    No one here was planning or partaking in any revolution, Chris. We were only having a serene discussion as adults. In the end, we're all pretty much innocent bystanders against the backdrop of societal events such as those that are playing out right now.

    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  23. #582
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    Aragorn, I actually fully agree with your above assessment.

    One note, I am not abandoning the topic of collapse, only the race riots and associated protests now also spreading to the UK and some European countries. But if others want to comment on it or post related material, they are welcome to do so.

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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    Aragorn, I am not going to belabour the point any more, because it is obvious to me that I am not going to change minds here. All I can offer is my own perspective. Trying to convince me that Communism isn't inherently evil is like trying to convince a Jew that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with National Socialism, that a few tweaks cannot fix. "They did it wrong" is the common excuse that people come up with in relation to this and I refuse to be a participant or even a bystander in yet another experiment to do Socalism/Communism right.

    I'm not talking about social democracy here, which I actually support, but criminal behaviour, with no regard to laws and rules, just running around and stealing from people who are smarter and more successful than you. That anyone would countenance theft and mayhem, even wanton destruction of property on this scale is beyond belief. These people are criminals and they must be locked up.
    National Socialism under Hitler, was fascist.

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    Chris, I hope you stay on this thread. I know how you feel about first person experience and how it molds your thinking. As an example, my brother in law, in Minneapolis became a tutor in the Somali community, where he happened to befriend a wannabe Egyptian mullah, at the same time. He ended up converting to Islam--the Somali kind.

    Fast forward a couple of years, the Egyptian dude, along with his friends, tried to get brother in law to change his will, told him his own brother wasn't to be trusted, tried to hijack his cancer treatment when he was dying. Told him he wouldn't enter God's kingdom if he took pain killers! My husband had to deal with all of this when he went to visit.

    He said it was a complete madhouse, with the Islamic crowd all over his mother's house, not letting family members quietly look after their brother. They had to be forcibly removed from the hospice he was admitted to a couple of days before he died. Their last words to him were, "you must find your way to the mosque." It was -40 degrees F, one of the coldest nights on record and blizzard conditions. BIL, was trying to dress himself to walk to the mosque, like 10 miles away, or more!

    They wanted to get him alone so they could have him sign off on a will they created, was the logical conclusion.

    He died the day after. My husband died of a massive stroke 5 months later, partly due to the stress of having to manage these freaking morons.

    So, that's my story and why I couldn't be at all objective about Islam for some time after that. Did this crowd represent all of Islam. No. Just the worst aspects of some of it, but it is very hard for me not to generalize!

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  29. #585
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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    Yes, you are right, it is a revolution.

    When the revolutionary committee is rounding up people for execution in your neck of the woods, I hope you'll remember what you said here.

    It is easy to be a revolutionary thousands of miles away.
    I'd gladly join nonviolent protests for the right cause although I've never done so.

    I wouldn't be sad if some Wall Street people and other psychopaths ended up in the gallows.

    Cause and effect, my friend. Cause and effect. These situations aren't born out of a vacuum.

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