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Thread: Guns 4 Peace, Really

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    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    "Yes, exactly, the more I watch his interviews from over the years, the more I see he's a natural born revolutionary of the rarest breed."

    Can you describe the difference between a revolutionary and a terrorist? Not really a trick question, Fred.
    "We are one thought away from changing the world!"

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  3. #32
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    "Yes, exactly, the more I watch his interviews from over the years, the more I see he's a natural born revolutionary of the rarest breed."

    Can you describe the difference between a revolutionary and a terrorist? Not really a trick question, Fred.
    I think you know the answer to that one as well as I do. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. To old King George for instance, the guys who dared challenge his colonial rule were terrorists of the highest order.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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  5. #33
    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Seriously, that is somewhat of an ambiguous precept and is a view from the top down. A better view is from the bottom up. If a change-maker has the support of the people, in my estimation, he/she is a revolutionary and if he/she doesn't then he/she is a terrorist.
    "We are one thought away from changing the world!"

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  7. #34
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    If a change-maker has the support of the people, in my estimation, he/she is a revolutionary and if he/she doesn't then he/she is a terrorist.
    Now that might just depend on which group of people is being referred to, no?
    Last edited by Fred Steeves, 30th August 2018 at 03:12.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

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    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    And then there are just the psychopaths who want to create terror for their own reasons. And to gain power, if only temporarily. And money.

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    Member on Sabbatical Morocco modwiz's Avatar
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    "To learn who rules over you simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" -- Voltaire

    "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."-- Eleanor Roosevelt

    "Misery loves company. Wisdom has to look for it." -- Anonymous

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    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    Now that might just depend on which group of people is being referred to, no?
    yes, it would...which keeps things interesting...The high road and the low road. We have to choose one. And from a less narcissistic view, there is usually a 'consensus reality' to refer to if we wish.

    Quote Originally posted by modwiz View Post
    good point, if true... but i doubt it because murders are not the sole problem, many more people kill each other by accident or by suicide than murder each other...but this would bolster my argument that rural and metro areas should have different gun laws to live by. The guns not coincidentally come from areas with lax laws which is how Mexico gets much of their cartel weaponry.

    Gun homicides get far more attention in the popular press, but most gun deaths are the result of suicide. In 2013, the last year for which the CDC provides numbers, 21,175 people committed suicide by firearm, while 11,208 people died in gun homicides.

    Suicide is more common in places with more guns
    The relationship between gun prevalence and suicide is stronger than the relationship between guns and homicide, as the Harvard Injury Control Research Center's Means Matter project shows. People who die from suicide are likelier to live in homes with guns than people who merely attempted suicide, and states with higher rates of gun ownership have higher rates of gun suicide.


    Guns can kill you in three ways: homicide, suicide, and by accident. Owning a gun or having one readily accessible makes all three more likely. One meta-analysis "found strong evidence for increased odds of suicide among persons with access to firearms compared with those without access and moderate evidence for an attenuated increased odds of homicide victimization when persons with and without access to firearms were compared." The latter finding is stronger for women, a reminder that guns are also a risk factor for domestic violence.

    The same thing is true for accidents. States with more guns see more accidental deaths from firearms, and children ages 5 to 14 are 11 times more likely to be killed with a gun in the US compared to other developed countries, where gun ownership is much less common. About half of gun accident fatalities happen to people under 25, and some recent analyses suggest that the official count of gun accident deaths among children is understated.

    While everyone is at a greater risk of dying by homicide if they have access to a gun, the connection is stronger for women. In a survey of battered women, 71.4 percent of respondents reported that guns had been used against them, usually to threaten to kill them. A study comparing abused women who survived with those killed by their abuser found that 51 percent of women who were killed had a gun in the house. By contrast, only 16 percent of women who survived lived in homes with guns.


    I did the math total murder rate is about 3.54 per 100,000 with those 5 cities and about 2.9 per 100,000 without them...you can do the rest. Those 5 cities which have been devastated by social conditions for many generations account for 14.0 % -14.5 % of homocides in the U.S. Those 5 cities metro population is about 8% of the U.S.
    Last edited by NotAPretender, 31st August 2018 at 02:49.
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  15. #38
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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    Guns can kill you in three ways: homicide, suicide, and by accident. Owning a gun or having one readily accessible makes all three more likely. One meta-analysis "found strong evidence for increased odds of suicide among persons with access to firearms compared with those without access and moderate evidence for an attenuated increased odds of homicide victimization when persons with and without access to firearms were compared." The latter finding is stronger for women, a reminder that guns are also a risk factor for domestic violence.

    The same thing is true for accidents.
    I'm sure this is very true. Suicide with a firearm is a relatively easy and painless way to go if done right and also in the wrong hands guns can cause many accidents and incidents. This may sound a bit morbid, but if I would commit suicide (don't worry, I won't), I would choose suicide by handgun out of all of the other available options if I had a gun nearby.

    Many people who try to commit suicide other ways often botch their attempts. Such a thing is often not the case with weapons because a gunshot to the head is 99 % lethal. If people do survive such attempts done with weapons, they are permanently left with quite severe facial or brain damage. Also we know how irrational people can be with their emotions. What if they get angry for what ever reason on a really bad day and they have a gun next to them? Just thinking out loud here.
    Last edited by Wind, 31st August 2018 at 12:24.

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  17. #39
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    Guns can kill you in three ways: homicide, suicide, and by accident. Owning a gun or having one readily accessible makes all three more likely. One meta-analysis "found strong evidence for increased odds of suicide among persons with access to firearms compared with those without access and moderate evidence for an attenuated increased odds of homicide victimization when persons with and without access to firearms were compared." The latter finding is stronger for women, a reminder that guns are also a risk factor for domestic violence.

    The same thing is true for accidents.
    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    I'm sure this is very true.
    Maybe, maybe not, but unfortunately this thread demands commentary on everything besides the original topic concerning the philosophy behind the actions of Cody Wilson, so I'm bowing out. In doing so however, I want to point out NAP was taking copy/paste liberty with the vast majority of that post, so you weren't quoting him Wind.

    Beginning with the quotes highlighted in red:

    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    yes, it would...which keeps things interesting...The high road and the low road. We have to choose one. And from a less narcissistic view, there is usually a 'consensus reality' to refer to if we wish.

    good point, if true... but i doubt it because murders are not the sole problem, many more people kill each other by accident or by suicide than murder each other...but this would bolster my argument that rural and metro areas should have different gun laws to live by. The guns not coincidentally come from areas with lax laws which is how Mexico gets much of their cartel weaponry.

    Gun homicides get far more attention in the popular press, but most gun deaths are the result of suicide. In 2013, the last year for which the CDC provides numbers, 21,175 people committed suicide by firearm, while 11,208 people died in gun homicides.

    Suicide is more common in places with more guns
    The relationship between gun prevalence and suicide is stronger than the relationship between guns and homicide, as the Harvard Injury Control Research Center's Means Matter project shows. People who die from suicide are likelier to live in homes with guns than people who merely attempted suicide, and states with higher rates of gun ownership have higher rates of gun suicide.


    Guns can kill you in three ways: homicide, suicide, and by accident. Owning a gun or having one readily accessible makes all three more likely. One meta-analysis "found strong evidence for increased odds of suicide among persons with access to firearms compared with those without access and moderate evidence for an attenuated increased odds of homicide victimization when persons with and without access to firearms were compared." The latter finding is stronger for women, a reminder that guns are also a risk factor for domestic violence.

    The same thing is true for accidents. States with more guns see more accidental deaths from firearms, and children ages 5 to 14 are 11 times more likely to be killed with a gun in the US compared to other developed countries, where gun ownership is much less common. About half of gun accident fatalities happen to people under 25, and some recent analyses suggest that the official count of gun accident deaths among children is understated.

    While everyone is at a greater risk of dying by homicide if they have access to a gun, the connection is stronger for women. In a survey of battered women, 71.4 percent of respondents reported that guns had been used against them, usually to threaten to kill them. A study comparing abused women who survived with those killed by their abuser found that 51 percent of women who were killed had a gun in the house. By contrast, only 16 percent of women who survived lived in homes with guns.


    I did the math total murder rate is about 3.54 per 100,000 with those 5 cities and about 2.9 per 100,000 without them...you can do the rest. Those 5 cities which have been devastated by social conditions for many generations account for 14.0 % -14.5 % of homocides in the U.S. Those 5 cities metro population is about 8% of the U.S.
    https://www.vox.com/cards/gun-violen...omicide-common
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    It's pretty obvious that this is about people, not guns.

    So we print a million of them. So we outlaw them all. So what?

    It's what the people do with them that matters. We can be smart, or not.


    My sister-in-law got a gun. She went on and on about how you have to be willing to fire it and willing to kill.

    It took her a year to get around to having lessons. I'm not sure if she's even proficient yet.

    She's also very anxiety filled, emotionally reactionary, and has a hot temper.

    I personally am glad her kids are grown and out of the house.

    Maybe no accidents or suicide will happen.

    This is where prayer comes in. Because no matter how smart or well trained people are, when they get emotional they do really stupid shit.

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    It's a fact that guns do make killing much easier. That's what they are designed for. It's quite simple although for a normal person it wouldn't be so easy to kill another human being instead of just shooting targets. For sociopaths that's not a problem. Makes me wonder if the trigger happy cops in US are somehow mentally unstable and how people like that can even get enlisted?

    As an European (who is not anti-gun) I do have to wonder about the US statistics when it comes to the shootings. Just cultural differences? I feel that "more guns" won't make any society more safe, it's just fear-based thinking. Anyways here you wouldn't be legally to defend yourself with a firearm, that's excessive use of force which is only allowed for the officials and even they use it with discretion.

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    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    I don't know why our gun violence is worse here. It's certainly not because of gun laws. It's the people and their mental state.

    We have Stand Your Ground laws and yet person after person getting shot on their driveway, in their homes, in their backyards by police.

    Laws don't solve this stuff.

    Maybe we're still fighting the Civil War. Maybe we still have a 'frontier' mentality. Maybe we have too many people on drugs, legal and illegal. Maybe we have too much breakdown of the family and community.

    Maybe it's all of the above and more.

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    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    Makes me wonder if the trigger happy cops in US are somehow mentally unstable and how people like that can even get enlisted?
    That's a tricky one, but for sure it's a problem. Not that there are all that many because like most people, I don't need the police in my life LOL, but on the off occasions where interaction has been inevitable, over the years I've walked away from the interactions thinking under different circumstances I might enjoy a beer or two with that guy. The vast majority of the time anyway, but a few years back I *did* run across one that was a Class A petty tyrant.

    Right around this time last August I went to film a protest/counter protest here in Knoxville Tennessee fresh in the wake of the Charlottesville cluster fuck, because there was word Antifa and the white supremacists might be taking aiming for round two here. After seeing what happened in Charlottsville, local law enforcement was having none of a possible repeat performance. They had a designated place for people to still freely express their 1st Amendment right but it was contained, all connecting side streets blocked off with city dump trucks, the opposing sides were separated on opposite sides of the street, and the cops were decked out in riot gear and M 16's. Bottom line though was that except for one I encountered who was a rude jack ass, the rest, if anything, were overly polite to attendees. They simply weren't going to let that bullshit happen again, and I respected that sentiment, along with the courtesy shown.

    Now, so far as the increasing rate of police shootings is concerned. From what I see a lot of that is the combination of how they are trained to be more and more paranoid these days, with very *little* training or emphasis on de-escalation tactics, and the rather small (but important) percentage who either don't have the required mental capabilities for proper decision making in a sudden high stress situation, or the hot heads on a power trip. As an aside the hot head on a power trip type was the jack ass cop I briefly encountered at that protest, and my instincts kicked in immediately to tread carefully with this guy.

    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    Just cultural differences? I feel that "more guns" won't make any society more safe, it's just fear-based thinking.
    I don't think that's really part of Cody's argument, it's how Tyler Durden framed that part of his argument. The 2nd Amendment guarantee of the right to bear arms, was meant as a back stop for the 1st Amendment guarantee of free speech. Also the right to self defense of course. But whether it be foreign invasion that may infringe on that, or our own government gone bad, the 2nd is the direct protector of the 1st, which is also the most important one. That's why they are 1st and 2nd. It's nothing about guns making society safer, hunting, none of that. I think it was a bit disingenuous for Tyler to frame Cody's argument in that light.

    Cody is all about the restraint of government, and even if they were to impose an all out ban on guns, besides the ones already on the streets, the train would have already left the station with 3 D gun printing.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    I don't know why our gun violence is worse here. It's certainly not because of gun laws. It's the people and their mental state.

    We have Stand Your Ground laws and yet person after person getting shot on their driveway, in their homes, in their backyards by police.

    Laws don't solve this stuff.

    Maybe we're still fighting the Civil War. Maybe we still have a 'frontier' mentality. Maybe we have too many people on drugs, legal and illegal. Maybe we have too much breakdown of the family and community.

    Maybe it's all of the above and more.
    My above post stated the five cities that distort the national average. Remove those shit holes from the 'statistics' and we are almost the least gun murderous nation in the world. So, the question is, why are the people in these cities so kill happy? What is wrong with the cities? Could it be how they have been managed by gooberment?
    "To learn who rules over you simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" -- Voltaire

    "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."-- Eleanor Roosevelt

    "Misery loves company. Wisdom has to look for it." -- Anonymous

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    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    I don't know why our gun violence is worse here. It's certainly not because of gun laws. It's the people and their mental state.

    We have Stand Your Ground laws and yet person after person getting shot on their driveway, in their homes, in their backyards by police.

    Laws don't solve this stuff.

    Maybe we're still fighting the Civil War. Maybe we still have a 'frontier' mentality. Maybe we have too many people on drugs, legal and illegal. Maybe we have too much breakdown of the family and community.

    Maybe it's all of the above and more.
    We're still fighting a proxy Civil War. The right, in particular, the southern right has raised it to a psychological level way beyond its current relevance. Jung might characterize it as the shadow side of an archetypal fetish. A misplaced sense of what is valuable about us and our cultural viability. "We lost the war, we were emasculated by a loss of a sense of self as a strong relevant human group identity". "No, that didn't happen!" "We will fight on!". It's an abject failure of a segment of our society to face its collective shadow.
    "We are one thought away from changing the world!"

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